House Cusps

[Anna123]

Hi all,

I read various monthly astrological forecasts, and I frequently come across expressions like "Jupiter is the ruler of Leo's 5th house, etc.". But what I see in my chart is that most of my houses are actually the same as those for Cancer rather than Leo, which is my ascendant.

So, should I be reading the horoscopes for Cancer as well? I am posting my chart so you can see for yourself.

Thank you!



House positions (Placidus)
Ascendant Leo 5°04'10
2nd House Leo 25°00'57
3rd House Virgo 19°27'47
Imum Coeli Libra 20°36'47
5th House Scorpio 27°40'06
6th House Capricorn 4°12'27
Descendant Aquarius 5°04'10
8th House Aquarius 25°00'57
9th House Pisces 19°27'47
Medium Coeli Aries 20°36'47
11th House Taurus 27°40'06
12th House Cancer 4°12'27

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Anna123

Hi all, I read various monthly astrological forecasts, and I frequently come across expressions like "Jupiter is the ruler of Leo's 5th house, etc.". But what I see in my chart is that most of my houses are actually the same as those for Cancer rather than Leo, which is my ascendant.

So, should I be reading the horoscopes for Cancer as well? I am posting my chart so you can see for yourself.

Thank you!

Anna, the location of house cusps is entirely dependent on the choice of house system format for the natal chart. There are over forty different house systems - however, the good news is that fourteen of those house systems are offered on astro.com on the "Extended Chart Selection page" for anyone who would like to experiment with calculating their natal chart in alternative house system formats.

The question "What was the original house system?" is often asked and here is a link to a website that features a brief outline on this topic http://www.librarising.com/astrology/misc/wholesignhouses.html

Sun sign astrology is most commonly found in newspaper and magazine columns and is a simplified system which considers only the position of the Sun within one of the twelve zodiac signs depending on the month of birth. This sign is then called the sun sign or star sign of the person born that month.

Sun sign astrologers take this basic twelvefold division and relate all the current movements of all the planets to each other, using traditional rules to divine meanings for each sign separately. Paradoxically, because the Moon has the fastest apparent movement of all the heavenly bodies, it is often used as the main indicator of daily trends for sun sign astrology forecasts.

Despite its vast popularity with the general public, there is much argument amongst astrologers about the validity of sun sign astrology.

As with all astrology, it is considered pseudoscience by astronomers and most other scientists. SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_sign_astrology

[Anna123]

Hi JupiterAsc,

Thank you for your response. I am still digesting the 14 different methods of creating houses, but I've noticed for myself that it really makes sense to use the whole house method.

Many thanks!

[JUPITERASC]

That's ok Anna123! - a post by Anachiel just yesterday makes the following interesting comment

Originally Posted by Anachiel

I'm going out on a limb here and...somewhere this was discussed...that the cusps we use actually are the middle of the house. So, for example, the cusp of the 12th is really not the beginning of that house but, rather the middle of it.

In light of this, that would mean that the ASC has some of itself extending into what we now call the 12th. It would make sense in light of the above that when the planet is rising it still has "good" effect because it is still in that ASC area mentioned. Gah! I wish I could find that reference but...it will turn up....

Additionally, when we take the signficator of a house (like in horary this used much more), we are then simply looking at what that planet is doing with or to other planets to find an answer. Whereas, in natal astrology the placements of the planets seem to be emphasized. Therein, might be part of the conundrum when we speak about planets being in the 12th. They may actually still be in the ASC according to older rules. Perhaps the 12th is not directly above the ASC but farther up....

Also, this may be where the signs and houses started, at one point in recent (modern) history to be the same thing, like Aries=the 1st and Pisces the 12th, etc. Perhaps there is some division that we are not seeing there as well that distinguishes, along with the cusp of the houses, the difference between the ASC and the 12th.

I found the reference Anachiel remembered - it was a post from dr. farr as follows:

Originally Posted by dr. farr

Cusps:

Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword-so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something, and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point"; now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other. And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded! In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses-each house-that is the "cusp" of each house-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.
Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)
Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything, but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time-ie, late 8th to early 9th century-this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices, rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

I quite agree with Waybread in the statement, "so what?" (if old time astrologers did or didn't do something) For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign-it worked better (FOR ME) I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago: only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above, does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?
Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched; but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners-to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...

[Anna123]

Yes, whole sign it is. I still do not know how to interpret progressions and and many other things, but I know that the whole sign is true for me.

Thanks for the links.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Anna123

Yes, whole sign it is. I still do not know how to interpret progressions and and many other things, but I know that the whole sign is true for me.

Thanks for the links.

Some useful forecasting tips using secondary progressions from modern astrologer Celeste Teal http://www.moonvalleyastrologer.com/secondary-progressions/

[Anna123]

Super! Thank you.

[dr. farr]

Transits or progressions in whole sign, relative to "cusps" are to the sensitive degree of each sign/house, which is the degree of the ascendant projected into that house/sign (eg, if the ascending degree were 18, then the sensitive point of each of the following sign/houses would be 18: transits or progressions to the 18th degree of any sign/house would be the point delineated) We also get a "bonus" relative to transits and progressions in whole sign because in addition to the sensitive point we can also delineate when the border (0 degree) of the sign/house is crossed by transit or progression as well (although more emphasis is usually given when the transit or progression hits the sensitive point of the sign/house)

[Anna123]

dr. farr,

I understood the first part of your response. So let me paraphrase to see if I understand you correctly. My ascendent is at 5 degrees Leo. This means that 5 degrees in each house is a sensitive point, and if let's say an eclipse is happening at 5 degrees in any house, then it's likely to affect me.

Is that right?

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by Anna123

dr. farr,

I understood the first part of your response. So let me paraphrase to see if I understand you correctly. My ascendent is at 5 degrees Leo. This means that 5 degrees in each house is a sensitive point, and if let's say an eclipse is happening at 5 degrees in any house, then it's likely to affect me.

Is that right?

I know that you have asked dr. farr, but I can say that the answer is yes, it will likely have an effect based on the nature of the house, and then based on whether or not the eclipse is aspecting another planet, and what the ruler of the eclipse is doing. It is not easily explained without using a chart and an actual example.

To answer your original question, I'm not sure how much value reading horoscopes really has. They are based on Sun signs, so sometimes reading for the rising sign will tell you more, but they cannot take into consideration where other planets fall in your chart, how they are aspected...in short...for entertainment purposes only.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Anna123

dr. farr,

I understood the first part of your response. So let me paraphrase to see if I understand you correctly. My ascendent is at 5 degrees Leo. This means that 5 degrees in each house is a sensitive point, and if let's say an eclipse is happening at 5 degrees in any house, then it's likely to affect me. Is that right?

Originally Posted by tsmall

I know that you have asked dr. farr, but I can say that the answer is yes, it will likely have an effect based on the nature of the house, and then based on whether or not the eclipse is aspecting another planet, and what the ruler of the eclipse is doing. It is not easily explained without using a chart and an actual example..

I would also add tsmall, the key factor is that Anna123's Ascendant at 5 degrees Leo is triggered by any eclipse conjuncting it at 5 degrees Leo, opposing it at 5 degrees Aquarius and/or squaring it from 5 Taurus/5 Scorpio. I mention squares and oppositions in particular in view that these are notoriously "challenging" aspects

[MaeMae]

before this disintegrates in a book/reference ~tossing diatribe tribunal, Anna, you and I have the exact same house rulers through and through and only 1-2 degrees difference on them.
If you look at your natal and your transits, watch where planets' rulership lands on house cusps. ruminate on those.
intercepted sag & gemini 5th & 11th.
this asc. comes down to relationships, commitments and values that carry you into them.

transits and natal aspects to sun (1 & 2 house) and uranus (7th & 8th)

[dr. farr]

Originally Posted by Anna123

dr. farr,

I understood the first part of your response. So let me paraphrase to see if I understand you correctly. My ascendent is at 5 degrees Leo. This means that 5 degrees in each house is a sensitive point, and if let's say an eclipse is happening at 5 degrees in any house, then it's likely to affect me.

Is that right?

In my opinion, yes that is correct; furthermore it will have a particularly potent potential effect on the house exactly opposite to the house in which the eclipse hits the sensitive degree; indeed, this opposite house effect (known as a latta or kick in Vedic astrology) could very well be MORE intense, than the house in which the eclipse on the senitive point, is posited!!

[Anna123]

I actually always read first for my ascendant when I read popular astrology. I still can't interpret charts well since I have very basic knowledge, so reading detailed astrologers helps.

About the eclipses: I have no planets in Capricorn (6H), and my asc is at 5 degrees Leo. So you are saying that if there is an eclipse in Cap at 5 degrees (within 3 degree orb) and only if it's aspecting a natal planet, then this eclipse is likely to affect my 6H. Is that right?

Originally Posted by tsmall

I know that you have asked dr. farr, but I can say that the answer is yes, it will likely have an effect based on the nature of the house, and then based on whether or not the eclipse is aspecting another planet, and what the ruler of the eclipse is doing. It is not easily explained without using a chart and an actual example.

To answer your original question, I'm not sure how much value reading horoscopes really has. They are based on Sun signs, so sometimes reading for the rising sign will tell you more, but they cannot take into consideration where other planets fall in your chart, how they are aspected...in short...for entertainment purposes only.

[Anna123]

It makes sense. I was just looking all eclipses from my birthday to date, and I found that even if the eclipses in my second house, it affects my 8 house deeply.

Originally Posted by dr. farr

In my opinion, yes that is correct; furthermore it will have a particularly potent potential effect on the house exactly opposite to the house in which the eclipse hits the sensitive degree; indeed, this opposite house effect (known as a latta or kick in Vedic astrology) could very well be MORE intense, than the house in which the eclipse on the senitive point, is posited!!

[Anna123]

Hey, seems like we are astrological twins!

I want to do exactly what you recommend, but it does not come easily. So if I do not use the whole house system, my 5H is ruled by Pluto. Pluto now is in my 6H. This much I know, but I do not know how to make more sense of it. Does this mean that my creative projects or love life will be revolving around my work?

My 2nd H is ruled by the Sun; the Sun is now in Taurus (or soon it will be) and Taurus is my 10H. The ruler of my 10H is Mars; transiting Mars is in Virgo (2H). And now I get stuck, and I do not know how to interpret this. If you can help, it would mean so much!

Originally Posted by MaeMae

before this disintegrates in a book/reference ~tossing diatribe tribunal, Anna, you and I have the exact same house rulers through and through and only 1-2 degrees difference on them.
If you look at your natal and your transits, watch where planets' rulership lands on house cusps. ruminate on those.
intercepted sag & gemini 5th & 11th.
this asc. comes down to relationships, commitments and values that carry you into them.

transits and natal aspects to sun (1 & 2 house) and uranus (7th & 8th)

[MaeMae]

i recommend, for simplicity sakes, you visit website
Astrology X-Files Transits.
He runs through transits and lords of houses that they affect. Simple learning, but a good start.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by MaeMae

i recommend, for simplicity sakes, you visit website
Astrology X-Files Transits.
He runs through transits and lords of houses that they affect. Simple learning, but a good start.

Anna123 the link to Astrology X-Files Transits ( recommended by MaeMae ) is http://www.astrology-x-files.com/transits/