Charisma

[Yoi]

Originally Posted by Lissa

Oh yes,I forgot that detail!You're right,my Sun is above the horizon in the3rd.

If it is in the 3rd wouldn't it be below the horizon?

[Lissa]

Sorry,I messed up I meant "below the horizon".Thanks for noticing!

Take care
Lissa

[Yoi]

Oh yeah, by the way, be careful with my results. I did them rather rapidly, I'm depending on the charts that different sources have to be accurate, some of those charts are difficult to read, some don't even have lines for the aspects, and the margin of error must be terrible with a sample size of 12. It also relies on personal bias about charismatic leaders though I try to choose the ones I think most people agree are charismatic. It's not necessarily picking up on the sole trait of charisma, possible adding on, recording errors. I didn't look at all possible combinations and compared them to the ones I singled out though I did try to compare them to some. There is no real control sample (how you can actually get a control sample for something like this is unclear) Oh yeah, and I have the flu

[Lissa]

Don't worry Yoi,I think you did a good job .
Good luck with the flu.

Lissa

[SunMoonStar]

I'm Scorpio with Pluto/Venus conjunction in Scorpio, and a very strongly aspected Mercury, with Taurus rising. Thanks everybody for the self-esteem raising thread!

[wayne penner]

Originally Posted by Yoi

What do people think are the best indicators (signs, aspects, houses, etc.) of charisma? Basically people who are charming, magnetic, able to persuade other people to do things etc.

Uranus aspects to Leo planets.

Moon on any angle with a lot of aspects.

Planets conjoined to Regulus or Spica.

[redwolf481]

I am a gemini with libra rising and venus in taurus...conjunct the moon opposite pluto in scorpio in the first house....my mars is in cancer conjunct mercury in cancer by 1 degree both trine pluto in scorpio mercury exact, mars by 1 degree...both opposite neptune mercury exact, mars by one degree.....moon and venus are also square jupiter in aquarius in the 5th house,,,,a ton of charisma...I tend to get myself in trouble though like when I was 20 I got a job in a bar by accident doing security and 3 months later I was working at the hottest club in the city...behind the bar....and wasn't even close to having the experience to work there..lets just say it doesn't end well.....an (moon venus square to jupiter) anyone wanna have a look at my chart I am really intrested in peoples opinions

sun is also trine pluto and opposite neptune if you look closely and opposite uranus

[JACKASSS]

Eros.
Sun, Moon, Venus, Mars, or Ascendant conjuncting Eros. Makes for a pretty fine person.

[leila flamenca]

Originally Posted by Yoi

Venus and Pluto...interesting. I have Venus in the 8th house. How is this different/similar to a Venus-Pluto connection? It's pretty well aspected: trines with Mars, Jupiter and Chiron though semisquare Mercury and Uranus.

As for Mercury and Scorpio. I have Mercury conjunct Uranus in Scorpio. Persuasive argument and debating have always been one of my strengths (Gemini rising helps here too I guess) so I have to agree with this.

People have mentioned three connections with Venus: Venus-Pluto, Venus-Libra, Venus-Moon. The energies involved are very different so the types of charisma involved should be very different. That is three different "types" of charisma here. Also what effect would house placement and aspects have?

yes, definitely agree with much of what's been said.
What about venus sextile mars or venus trine mars for sexual charisma?Many actors/actresses have this, I think

Or uranus- aspecting mercury for charismatic speakers/orators? what do you think?


Leila Flamenca

[leila flamenca]

Reading through Astrology For Dummies, regarding house placements for charisma indications:

any planets conjunct the Midheaven/ 10th house can add to charisma- perhaps Jupiter placed( lucky in the public eye, very public job) maybe Mars
any planets conjunct the Ascendant. I have read that venus conjunct ascendant produces immense beauty: Angelina Jolie is said to have this conjunction.
Neptune in the first house is said to create glamour, mystique( Marilyn Monroe had Leo Ascendant, with Neptune right there, too.
Sun conjunct Ascendant ( sun=Leo here, perhaps: spoonsful of charisma ).

Although, I wouldn't regard Paris Hilton as charismatic (No way) she has neptune on her ascendant. I'll quote the sentence which states more revealingly: " And sure enough she has some Leo going on: The Moon and the North Node in the eighth house of sex and other people's money. Her fame was no accident" ( Astrology for Dummies, p 274).
:38:

[leila flamenca]

I am sure pluto trines to personal planets, must account for a lot, though. Do you think Pluto in the first house would create compelling magnetism/charisma?
How about Sun Conjunct Jupiter?
Venus in the 7th house: sociability, enjoys the company of people?

[Leone]

I have Scorpio Sun, Mercury, and Pluto which are all in conjunction with each other. My Jupiter trines all of those planets too. I'm far from charismatic.

[leila flamenca]

Are you sure? You sound like someone who has a lot of passion and intensity, and is NOT superficial. I think you probabaly draw people in in some way- and when you speak, you don't waste your words either.

[Leone]

Originally Posted by leila flamenca

Are you sure? You sound like someone who has a lot of passion and intensity, and is NOT superficial. I think you probabaly draw people in in some way- and when you speak, you don't waste your words either.

A bit mysterious.

[dourage]

Just in response to someone who noted something about charismatic leaders, I study Political Science and just had a course called "Political Psychology":

Please note that Charisma is not a personal trait, it's not a characteritistic of a person, people are MADE charmismatic by folks who follow/adore them.

Usually people with low-self esteem and a Wounded Self develop ways to compensate for their lacks and this is called a "mirror-hungry" image, while people who need a strong leader to look up to have what is called a "ideal-hungry" personality. These folks need a strong leader to get their self-worth from.

Wilner (1984) surveyed the vast (and often contradictory) literature on charmismatic leadership and then defined it as a relationship between a leader and a group of followers that has the following properties:

1. The leader is percieved by the followers as somehow superhuman.
2. The followers blindly believe the leader's statements.
3. The followers unconditionally comply with the leader's directives for action
4. The followers give the leader unqualified emotional support.

Please read "Leaders and Followers in a Dangerous World" by Jerrold. M. Post for further reference.

Regarding Astrology, and Charismatic LEADERS (but maybe you could also use this for "normal" people), I would then look for self-esteem issues in a chart.. like, lot's of squares to the Sun (maybe especially a Sun/Moon square), a weakly placed Moon or Mercury for the emotions and the mind...

etc.

[tsquare]

Please read "Leaders and Followers in a Dangerous World" by Jerrold. M. Post

Interesting, I may check that out.....
Here's one you may like,
The True Believer--Eric Hoffer.

Summary from Wickipedia...
Hoffer argues that mass movements such as Fascism and Communism spread by promising a glorious future. To be successful, these mass movements need the adherents to be willing to sacrifice themselves and others for the future goals. To do so, mass movements need to devalue both the past and the present. Mass movements appeal to frustrated people who are dissatisfied with their current state, but are capable of a strong belief in the future. As well, mass movements appeal to people who want to escape a flawed self by creating an imaginary self and joining a collective whole. Some categories of people who may be attracted to mass movements include poor people, misfits, and people who feel thwarted in their endeavors. Hoffer quotes extensively from leaders of the Nazi and Communist parties in the early part of the 20th Century, to demonstrate, among other things, that they were competing for adherents from the same pool of people predisposed to support mass movements. Despite the two parties fierce antagonism, they were more likely to gain recruits from their opposing party than from moderates with no affiliation to either.
The book also explores the behavior of mass movements once they become established (or leave the "active phase"). With their collapse of a communal framework people can no longer defeat the feelings of insecurity and uncertainty by belonging to a compact whole. If the isolated individual lacks vast opportunities for personal advancement, development of talents, and action (such as those found on a frontier), he will seek substitutes. These substitutes would be pride instead of self-confidence, memberships in a collective whole like a mass movement, absolute certainty instead of understanding.
Hoffer does not take an exclusively negative view of "true believers" and the mass movements they begin. Examples he gives of positive true believers are Abraham Lincoln and Gandhi. There are also positive reflections in the final sentence of the book. There have been 23 editions of The True Believer published between 1951 and 2002.

=====




I saw this a while back and was glad I fould it again....
jupiter in scorpio...Gods or Monsters...interesting write up...
On cult leaders and Carisma.....

http://www.edtamplin.com/cycles/Jupiter_in_Scorpio.htm

[Undo]

Originally Posted by leila flamenca

Reading through Astrology For Dummies, regarding house placements for charisma indications:

any planets conjunct the Midheaven/ 10th house can add to charisma- perhaps Jupiter placed( lucky in the public eye, very public job) maybe Mars
any planets conjunct the Ascendant. I have read that venus conjunct ascendant produces immense beauty: Angelina Jolie is said to have this conjunction.
Neptune in the first house is said to create glamour, mystique( Marilyn Monroe had Leo Ascendant, with Neptune right there, too.
Sun conjunct Ascendant ( sun=Leo here, perhaps: spoonsful of charisma ).

Although, I wouldn't regard Paris Hilton as charismatic (No way) she has neptune on her ascendant. I'll quote the sentence which states more revealingly: " And sure enough she has some Leo going on: The Moon and the North Node in the eighth house of sex and other people's money. Her fame was no accident" ( Astrology for Dummies, p 274).
:38:

Venus (Gemini, 10th) conjunct Ascendant (Leo). Where's my beauty?

As someone else said, Eros also adds charisma, as does Black Moon Lilith especially in the 10th house, which is said to aid in manipulating people.

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by Yoi

What do people think are the best indicators (signs, aspects, houses, etc.) of charisma? Basically people who are charming, magnetic, able to persuade other people to do things etc.

The magnetic signs are the fixed signs. Scorpio, Aquarius, Leo and Taurus.
Charm belongs to Libra, also Gemini can talk anyone into anything. Neptune is for glamour, seduction and Pluto for intensity and passion.

[Leone]

Originally Posted by Claire19

The magnetic signs are the fixed signs. Scorpio, Aquarius, Leo and Taurus.
Charm belongs to Libra, also Gemini can talk anyone into anything minus Scorpio. Neptune is for glamour, seduction and Pluto for intensity and passion.

fixed for truth

Sounds to me like charisma is like a perfect recipe, but it takes just the right amount of elements and aspects mixed in the bowl to create the energy. Pretty cool. I do believe there are many types of charismatic people so there must be other telling details in the chart for each indiviual case.

[Hey]

Sun and Pluto aspects. People have an instant reaction to you.
Like they say, it's a gut feeling, and you don't know why you love or hate them. You just get a strong feeling when you see them.
Also, many planets in aspect to the ascendant. Your ascendant is your projection, and with many planets aspecting it, you're conveying a lot of things. People become quite interested.

[smilingsteph]

Hey guys there are so many things to look at here!
The word charisma (from the Greek word χάρισμα (kharisma), "gift" or "divine favor," from kharizesthai, "to favor," from kharis, "favor": see also charism, Charis) refers to a rare trait found in certain human personalities usually including extreme charm and a 'magnetic' quality of personality and/or appearance along with innate and powerfully sophisticated personal communicability and persuasiveness.
Charm
Magnetism
communicability and persuasiveness
Including both personality and looks

So hard to define, depends on what one finds charismatic....a leader, laid back, funloving, attractive

I think one that has power is charismatic, so that to me would be someone with a strong pluto, or strong fixed signs.

[leila flamenca]

Some really good points, dourage and others.

The fact is, on the other side of the coin, charisma doesn't always have a beautiful face, as the post on facism so excellently suggests. Charisma can definitely be what others think of you- i've seen this in the workplace, where somehow certain individuals are put on huge pedestals- they seem to be flavour of the month, and others follow them. There is much to be said about people wanting to follow someone and worshipping- that may say more about poor self-esteem, if anything.

Charisma can be extremely dangerous, as we see in politics and war. We 're not even listening to, or questioning the messages, but following blindly. And when one actuallu dissents against all this, this is where power gets truly ugly.... and it still goes on. There's a whole list of charismatic leaders who've certainly wronged humanity...... All that glitters is not gold.. I guess you can say the same for glamour.

Ask yourself, why am i so enamoured of a celebrity or a politician- are they here for the common good or do I need to lost in total admiration/lust, while they do unspeakable things in my name!!


Nothing wrong with crushes and infatuation, but when charisma creates such power abuse and so on, you have to wonder why society waxes so lyrical about it. Let's face it, if everyone was so struck in wonder at our every word, I think we wouldn't even know the meaning of the word humility....!! just a thought..

Do I really need a huge following?!! heehee ( very indulgent for the ego, but think of the responsibility). And a good leader ( and I'm not talking about charisma, here) brings out the best in people, sees the whole picture, as well as the details, can make difficult decisions, doesn't bully, or abuse their power, and what's more has to have the humility to understand the responsibility he or she has been given.....



I think everyone has the ability to be charming and winsome- we all do it- and show our best sides- maybe some more than others. But i think it is important to say, that we are all loveable, complex human beings , without charisma.....

[leila flamenca]

Originally Posted by Hey

Sun and Pluto aspects. People have an instant reaction to you.
Like they say, it's a gut feeling, and you don't know why you love or hate them. You just get a strong feeling when you see them.
Also, many planets in aspect to the ascendant. Your ascendant is your projection, and with many planets aspecting it, you're conveying a lot of things. People become quite interested.

I think that is true. Is it usually Pluto squares, opposites or trines, though? Or all three? Is it possibe to, that you reject that Pluto side of you, others will react towards in that way, you totally reject - as in projection?

I agree with Pluto/Scorpio being important to charisma. In order to be charismatic you need drive(Mars) regardless of what you are charismatic about. Maybe a strong Mars or Pluto is essential then? Fire is a must too, I think..