should i leave my son to his grandmother?

ezgi · #1 03-20-2012, 05:42 PM

hello,

i don't know what to write but i feel i am one of the worst parents one can have.
lack of energy, lack of friends lack of money lack of courage etc....

my son's chart testifies this i think;

saturn in the 4th house..

i've tried to be a good mother but i don't believe i am successful. Everytime he says i love you my heart breaks apart. i don't have any support i don't feel strong to protect him until he grows up.

Should i leave him to his grandmother to protect him from myself. pls. help.

Can she look after him well? Will she love him?

i couldn't attach my files

would you pls create a chart for me and him?

thanks a lot

me :01/08/1977 14 :32 istanbul/ turkey rectified birth time but not sure

him:28/11/2008 18:48 istanbul/turkey

miquar · #2 03-20-2012, 08:55 PM

Hi ezgi. I'm sorry to read that you're struggling in your experience of being a parent. I've put your data into solarfire, but I haven't attached it as they always come up blurred and I haven't figured out what I'm doing wrong.

I just wanted to say a few things that occurred to me when I looked at your chart. It could be that certain parts of your son's chart are aspecting the parts of your chart that reflect your difficulties, thus amplifying them. This is just my opinions and should be seen as food for thought and possible further enquiry through reading up on the chart features I'll mention.

That Mercury in the 10th in Virgo exactly opposite the Moon in Pisces in the 4th says a lot, I feel, about your obvious tendency to criticise your own mothering. I don't know whether your birth time rectification was successful (and neither do you unfortunately as it is not as yet as exact science) or how vague your birth time was to begin with. But if these house placements are correct, then the dynamic between your parents, and/or between you and one or both of your parents, probably involved something similar. There are lots of ways in which this could have played out. You may have had a strong emotional identification with one of your parents and identified with the pain they were suffering due to the criticisms of the other parent. But in one way or another it seems that you have probably learned that the world (and your own inner voice of authority) are opposed to your very sensitive instinctual nature. This kind of aspect lends itself to assigning a character to each planet. For example Moon in Pisces would be a very sensitive, imaginative, compassionate, escapist kind of character, and would probably be noticeably infantile or motherly - perhaps both at different times. Mercury in Virgo would perhaps be very analytical, critical, fussy, striving after order and punctuality, etc. - possibly like an old fashioned teacher.

The exact opposition suggests that these two planets tend to rub each other up the wrong way. But by getting to know them you can go a long way to reconciling their conflicting needs. One person I once talked to with this opposition (in different signs and houses) said that each night she would light a candle and talk to it about how her day had been. The Moon and Mercury both have to do with digesting experience - Mercury through the intellect and the Moon through physical and emotional response. This was something that both her Moon and Mercury could participate in.

It could be that one of the reasons you feel cut off from friends is that this aspect gives rise to communication difficulties. Your Moon wants to relate to people one way, but your Mercury communicates in a different way. You may find that you tend to identify with one more than the other, and tend to experience other people as playing out the other planet. So if you identify more with the Moon in Pisces, then other people may seem unsympathetic and critical. If you identify more with the Mercury in Virgo, then you might find other people too vague and evasive when you are trying to communicate with them.

But these are just suggestions of how the aspect might work out.

Looking at the chart as a whole, it seems that deep down you need breathing space, and the opportunity to express your unique individuality. I'm thinking of Sun in Leo on the 9th and Venus, Jupiter and Mars in Gemini. Sun is square Uranus in the 12th, suggesting that you may have inherited a tendency to suppress your need for independence and innovation. Chiron completes a T square and this suggests that perhaps the Solar needs are caught between the need to rescue Uranus from some ancestral prohibition on being free to change and grow, and a sense of being damaged as a vessel of service to others. I'm struggling to draw something more down-to-earth out of that so I'll leave it as it is for you to ponder. Feel free to ask if you want me to try and elaborate another day.

Mars opposite Neptune can suggest a lack of potency. Mars wants to assert the personal will, but Neptune is the yearning for a way of being in which there is no personal will - just a flowing with life in complete fusion and with no sense of a separate identity. As with the Moon opposite Mercury aspect, Mars and Neptune can be helped to work together. It is important for you to define your personal goals and get in touch with your Mars energy - use Mars in Gemini interpretations to help you - and then you can channel Neptune's healing, inspiring energy through the Mars without losing your ability to stand up for your needs as an individual.

Interestingly, Mercury in Virgo and Mars in Gemini are both similar in that they operate in a rational manner. Neptune in Sagittarius and Moon in Pisces are similar in their irrational way of operating. With oppositions there is sometimes a tendency to swing between extremes, but even when functioning at one extreme, the influence of the other extreme can be seen coming through.

I don't know if this will help. I've approached your post from the point of view that the better you know yourself, and the more you embrace the diverse parts of yourself, the more self-esteem and vitality you will have.

As transiting Pluto and Uranus approach aspects to your natal Pluto, there will be an opportunity to dig deeply and see more clearly the compulsions that motivate you and influence your perceptions. Moon exactly biquintile Pluto in your birth chart suggests a talent for transforming your instinctive and emotional life.

I would never advise someone about whether or not to give a child into the care of another. Does it have to be one extreme or the other. Could the grandmother support you in your parenting? Parenting does get easier as the child gets older, and if there is an issue in your relationship with the grandmother which would make it difficult for you both to cooperate with one another in raising your son, then resolving this issue would probably be part of the same process of freeing the large amount of vitality which your chart suggests.

I seem to have neglected your Scorpio ascendant and Pluto in the 11th house of friends, as well as Saturn in the 9th (which often suggests a self-oppressive perception of a critical god, if you think in terms of god) but anyway I'll wait for you to respond to what I've put so far.

Best wishes,

OnTheCusp · #3 03-21-2012, 01:50 AM

Full disclosure--this is the first Horary question/chart I've ever done. I started reading a book on it yesterday. Thought it might be helpful (you might consider posting this question in the Horary Forum as well).

So, I used the time from your original post (12:42 PM my time) in Istanbul.

The chart is attachech--I was pretty blown away by it because it spoke so directly to the matter at hand.

There are lots of "rules" about horary (which must be a "yes/no" question). The first is "Is the Ascendant in the first or last few degrees of a sign?"

In this case YES. It is in the first degree of Scorpio. This can indicate that the question is premature, or sometimes that there is a more basic question that lies underneath he original question.

SO, strictly speaking, the question should not be answered unless other information suggests it's ok to evaluate.

Strike 2: Saturn Rx on the Asc. This is also a HUGE "NO".

Especially in connection with the forming New Moon, which I guess is also a "bad" sign.

If I had continued, Mars would have represented you, and Mars is afflicted prety bad in this chart, especially by Chiron. Not sure if you know the myth of Chiron, but when he was born his mother couldn't look at him (half horse / half human) so cast him out. This became a big part of the myth (the Wounded Healer, rejected by mother).

So - I just stopped. Do NOT take action at this point. It seems premature, and even if it's not...I have a couple questions unrelated to astrology...

1. Why must it be all or nothing? Couldn't he stay with his grandmother for a week or two so you could have some space? It seems odd that it would have to be such a dramatic decision. Is there more to the story?
2. What would you do without a child? Work?
3. What does his grandmother think about it?

I'm really sorry to hear you're battling with a decision like this!

D

ezgi · #4 03-21-2012, 08:59 PM

thanks for the replies i can see you've spent a lot of time for me i owe you

for 5 years i've got a treatment for my depression but i see now the money i paid for has been useless. so i try to find my answers in astrology. i find the reasons but it's so difficult to solve them. for example as you said there is moon-mercury opposition i can't decide how to behave. i can't understand the person whom i contact with is my friend or foe. i know there is sth wrong with the conversation but i'm not so clever to counterattack my foes by wit (insulting while smiling)

i don't want to be alone but every time i've been left alone. in this world the only thing i needed was a mother who supported me and now she is dead.
i always criticized her not being beside me i could't understand her love was enough i always compared her with my mother in law(she is so kind with her own daughter)

mother in law issue: i can't understand her. she is the best actress i 've seen in my life. she always plays but sometimes i think if i leave my son to him she will be forced to look after him because she is afraid of her husband for which reason i don't understand.(and her husband loves my child) then i talk to myself hey you crazy woman don't be so stupid when her husband is at work she will be evil to my son. (in my postpartum depression she behaved me disgusting as i was like a little child who couldn't protect herself) and when my husband started to cheat me on she helped my husband in behaving me terribly in spite of my newborn baby.

anyway thank you again both of you for spending your time for me

i was in a terrible mood yesterday.i felt so weak to protect him(mars opp.nep)

miquar · #5 03-22-2012, 08:13 PM

Hi ezgi. Here is your chart (hopefully!). I'll reply to your post in another post.

miquar · #6 03-22-2012, 08:58 PM

Hi. Blurred again - if anyone knows what I'm doing wrong with the thumbnails could they please let me know.

Ezgi, from what you've said I can understand why you are reluctant to have anything to do with your mother in law. But I wonder if there are other places you can find support. In England there are charities that arrange for volunteers to visit struggling parents and help out in various ways, including giving the parents space to be things other than parents. Also I don't know what the school starting age is in Turkey, but when your son starts school you'll have a lot more head space to reflect on all that's happened to you and why you have been stuck in a depression. Depression is usually something that can be worked with.

With Sun in fire square Uranus you need a lot of room to be yourself, and this could include parenting in your own individual way. I don't know how accurate your birth time is - it would be useful if you want to carry on posting on this thread if you let me know how much information you have about your birth time aside from the rectification, eg no idea of time, some time in the afternoon, some time between 2 and 3 pm, or whatever. With Scorpio ascendant, especially if it is closely square Saturn, you may have always felt it to be too risky to be yourself due to the threat of humiliation. Suppressing that Sun in Leo square Uranus probably has something to do with your depression. It sounds as though some other parts your chart are not being lived out at the moment, especially the Gemini planets.

I'd encourage you to go out and find a group of some kind that feels right to you and that engages you mentally and fits with your ideals of what life is all about. If your Pluto is in the 11th house, this may invoke a fear of being overwhelmed or humiliated in some way, but by overcoming any such fears enough to give a group a try, you may find you are able to tap into deep resources from within as well as opening yourself to support from others.

It seems as though you are giving yourself a lot of self-defeating messages at the moment. I'm not criticising you for that. We take on board many assumptions about life and about ourselves as a way of getting through childhood in one piece, and by the time we are more self-sufficient the assumptions are deeply ingrained and hard to shift. If certain people are behaving like foe then you can always try to avoid them. And if you are unsure whether it is partly paranoia on your part reflected by things like Scorpio rising, Pluto in the 11th and Mercury in Virgo in the 10th opposite Moon, you can always try to talk to the person concerned about how you feel and you may be surprised to find that many of your fears about how the other person has been with you are just your imagination re-creating past difficulties in your mind.

The Mars Neptune opposition makes harmonious aspects to the Sun and Pluto - there is a sense that the more you tap into your sense of power and self-determination, the more your depression will lift.

My eye keeps drifting back to the Sun Uranus square. I think it is pivotal in your chart. The Sun and Uranus each make harmonious aspects to one of the oppositions. Uranus to the Moon Mercury opposition, and Sun to the Mars Neptune opposition. I wonder what your relationship was like with your father. Sun in Leo suggests a warm and giving temperament, but the Sun in the 9th aspecting Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, with Moon in Pisces in the 4th house, suggests someone less personal or available. Any issues you have with him, whether you ever knew him or not, could be part of your journey to releasing the energy in the Sun Uranus square, and unlocking the potential in the chart.

Sun in Leo in the 9th needs to experiment with life as a way of discovering new things about oneself. And a 3 year old is a grand master at play and innovation, so if you stop beating yourself up for a while, he could have a very healing effect on you. Transiting Uranus will approach its trine to your Sun as transiting Pluto approaches its square to natal Pluto. This could be a great two or three years for finding the vibrant you beneath the layers of self-doubt and self-criticism. Transiting Jupiter will conjunct your Mars in July and December, and then next year it will sweep through all the natal Gemini planets, including its return to its own natal place. These are all great transits for finding your true potential, but you'll need to meet them half way if you're going to make best use of them.

I hope you're feeling better today,

Best wishes

waybread · #7 03-22-2012, 10:39 PM

ezgi, how do you imagine your son would feel as he grows up, knowing you didn't want to raise him? Don't you imagine this would fill him with insecurities?

If you are a danger to him or yourself, yes, by all means, put your child in a safe environment. Otherwise your unconditional love for your son counters a lot of your personal disadvantages. Many poor people are loving parents. Many people without friends are loving parents.

Parenthood is all about taking that big step into maturity. You are not the child now. He is.

princess valhalla · #8 03-22-2012, 10:54 PM

i do agree with everything you said waybread. however, it seems ezgi needs a softer approach. i haven't looked at her birthchart, not that i could interpret it anyways! it just seems like she is looking for some level of support be it financial, emotional and/or spiritual. The best advice I could possibly give you ezgi is that whatever you do, it should be in the best interest of your son, not yourself. Being a parent is self sacrifice. The needs of the child supercede the needs of your own. By no means am i giving you a hard time. on the contrary i feel for you. However i must be honest. I wish you and your son nothing but the best and know that you will make the right decision, whatever that may be. only you know.
Best wishes and regards!
~Sarah

ezgi · #9 03-30-2012, 04:24 PM

i know you are right
i know i should grow up
i know i should'nt feel this way
i know i know
maybe you can't believe me but i've tried not to cry beside my child since he was born. i've tried to play polyanna beside him. i think you've understood me wrong it's not that i don't want to look after him. it's just that i don't want to harm him by a sensitive person like me. (as my mother did)

Thank you for the replies again.

waybread · #10 03-30-2012, 10:07 PM

Have you been diagnosed with clinical depression? This is a treatable medical condition. Please talk to your doctor.

beginner · #11 04-09-2012, 01:51 PM

in ur son's chart moon in 6th having square with saturn, *possibly* there may be some relationship issue between him and his mother.
If u take care of relationship than it might be not an issue.

can u tell me something about ur husband?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ezgi

hello,

i don't know what to write but i feel i am one of the worst parents one can have.
lack of energy, lack of friends lack of money lack of courage etc....

my son's chart testifies this i think;

saturn in the 4th house..

i've tried to be a good mother but i don't believe i am successful. Everytime he says i love you my heart breaks apart. i don't have any support i don't feel strong to protect him until he grows up.

Should i leave him to his grandmother to protect him from myself. pls. help.

Can she look after him well? Will she love him?

i couldn't attach my files

would you pls create a chart for me and him?.....

IleneK · #12 04-09-2012, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miquar

Hi ezgi. I'm sorry to read that you're struggling in your experience of being a parent. I've put your data into solarfire, but I haven't attached it as they always come up blurred and I haven't figured out what I'm doing wrong.

I just wanted to say a few things that occurred to me when I looked at your chart. It could be that certain parts of your son's chart are aspecting the parts of your chart that reflect your difficulties, thus amplifying them. This is just my opinions and should be seen as food for thought and possible further enquiry through reading up on the chart features I'll mention.

That Mercury in the 10th in Virgo exactly opposite the Moon in Pisces in the 4th says a lot, I feel, about your obvious tendency to criticise your own mothering. I don't know whether your birth time rectification was successful (and neither do you unfortunately as it is not as yet as exact science) or how vague your birth time was to begin with. But if these house placements are correct, then the dynamic between your parents, and/or between you and one or both of your parents, probably involved something similar. There are lots of ways in which this could have played out. You may have had a strong emotional identification with one of your parents and identified with the pain they were suffering due to the criticisms of the other parent. But in one way or another it seems that you have probably learned that the world (and your own inner voice of authority) are opposed to your very sensitive instinctual nature. This kind of aspect lends itself to assigning a character to each planet. For example Moon in Pisces would be a very sensitive, imaginative, compassionate, escapist kind of character, and would probably be noticeably infantile or motherly - perhaps both at different times. Mercury in Virgo would perhaps be very analytical, critical, fussy, striving after order and punctuality, etc. - possibly like an old fashioned teacher.

The exact opposition suggests that these two planets tend to rub each other up the wrong way. But by getting to know them you can go a long way to reconciling their conflicting needs. One person I once talked to with this opposition (in different signs and houses) said that each night she would light a candle and talk to it about how her day had been. The Moon and Mercury both have to do with digesting experience - Mercury through the intellect and the Moon through physical and emotional response. This was something that both her Moon and Mercury could participate in.

It could be that one of the reasons you feel cut off from friends is that this aspect gives rise to communication difficulties. Your Moon wants to relate to people one way, but your Mercury communicates in a different way. You may find that you tend to identify with one more than the other, and tend to experience other people as playing out the other planet. So if you identify more with the Moon in Pisces, then other people may seem unsympathetic and critical. If you identify more with the Mercury in Virgo, then you might find other people too vague and evasive when you are trying to communicate with them.

But these are just suggestions of how the aspect might work out.

Looking at the chart as a whole, it seems that deep down you need breathing space, and the opportunity to express your unique individuality. I'm thinking of Sun in Leo on the 9th and Venus, Jupiter and Mars in Gemini. Sun is square Uranus in the 12th, suggesting that you may have inherited a tendency to suppress your need for independence and innovation. Chiron completes a T square and this suggests that perhaps the Solar needs are caught between the need to rescue Uranus from some ancestral prohibition on being free to change and grow, and a sense of being damaged as a vessel of service to others. I'm struggling to draw something more down-to-earth out of that so I'll leave it as it is for you to ponder. Feel free to ask if you want me to try and elaborate another day.

Mars opposite Neptune can suggest a lack of potency. Mars wants to assert the personal will, but Neptune is the yearning for a way of being in which there is no personal will - just a flowing with life in complete fusion and with no sense of a separate identity. As with the Moon opposite Mercury aspect, Mars and Neptune can be helped to work together. It is important for you to define your personal goals and get in touch with your Mars energy - use Mars in Gemini interpretations to help you - and then you can channel Neptune's healing, inspiring energy through the Mars without losing your ability to stand up for your needs as an individual.

Interestingly, Mercury in Virgo and Mars in Gemini are both similar in that they operate in a rational manner. Neptune in Sagittarius and Moon in Pisces are similar in their irrational way of operating. With oppositions there is sometimes a tendency to swing between extremes, but even when functioning at one extreme, the influence of the other extreme can be seen coming through.

I don't know if this will help. I've approached your post from the point of view that the better you know yourself, and the more you embrace the diverse parts of yourself, the more self-esteem and vitality you will have.

As transiting Pluto and Uranus approach aspects to your natal Pluto, there will be an opportunity to dig deeply and see more clearly the compulsions that motivate you and influence your perceptions. Moon exactly biquintile Pluto in your birth chart suggests a talent for transforming your instinctive and emotional life.

I would never advise someone about whether or not to give a child into the care of another. Does it have to be one extreme or the other. Could the grandmother support you in your parenting? Parenting does get easier as the child gets older, and if there is an issue in your relationship with the grandmother which would make it difficult for you both to cooperate with one another in raising your son, then resolving this issue would probably be part of the same process of freeing the large amount of vitality which your chart suggests.

I seem to have neglected your Scorpio ascendant and Pluto in the 11th house of friends, as well as Saturn in the 9th (which often suggests a self-oppressive perception of a critical god, if you think in terms of god) but anyway I'll wait for you to respond to what I've put so far.

Best wishes,

Very articulate and sensitive survey of the chart. Well done!

fotto · #13 04-10-2012, 06:43 PM

ezgi merhaba, durumunu okudum ve cok uzuldum. inaniyorum ki icinde bulundugun durumu asabilirsin, benim de 2.5 yasinda bir kizim var ve dogum sonrasi donem cok cok zor biliyorum, ozellikle de senin durumundayken depresyon kacinilmaz ama oglunu birakma, sonradan pisman olacagina eminim. kayinvalidene guvenmiyorsan hele hic birakma, bugunler gececek o da buyuyecek sen de daha guclu hissedeceksin. meditasyon yap.sevgiler