The Twelfth House

[RaptInReverie]

Thanks Jerry. I hadn’t thought of a clockwise house system. This will surely be a rewarding study. By the way, my Sun is also in the 12th house.

[waybread]

"OP" means opening post, or opening poster.

Originally Posted by RaptInReverie

Waybread,

There’s no point in you relaying the views of Ptolemy and Valens to me unless you accept and believe them too. It will only result in you feeling attacked in the end. When I say that I don’t understand why people today view the twelfth house in such a profoundly deleterious light, it means not that I am confused about or ignorant of the way some astrologers in past times viewed things. It means that I am curious to know why modern astrologers currently accept and perpetuate certain views about the twelfth house. This is not a mere matter of adhering to the fundamentals either, for most modern astrologers do not strictly adhere to ancient astrological principles. To varying extents, we’ve all made modifications to suite our personal preferences.

The Khasmin winds are only seasonal and are not confined to one particular period of the day. They obscure the Sun in mid day as well. Likewise humidity, precipitation, and cloud cover are not consistent from day to day. This is why we have meteorology and weather forecasting. Surely Ptolemy and Valens observed clear and distinct sunrises as well. The twelfth house connection remains weak.

I’m not sure exactly what you mean by metaphysical obscurity; woe if it is in any way related to mythology, for if you really want to see obscurity, throw mythology into this discussion, lol. No, honestly, feel free to present your ideas on Egyptology and its influence on astrology. I'm sure many of us would enjoy hearing them. I must forewarn you, however, that I may only reply with a polite head nod. I have personal beliefs in this area that I wish not to divulge on this site, although I 100% respect your wish to do so.

By the way, you've been pushing Deborah Houlding's material a lot, and I guess I should have mentioned that many of us are already familiar with her work. Her site is linked and or paraphrased on virtually every discussion board here.

This is astonishing. What is the problem with my relaying some ancient astrologers' ideas-- and not believing in them? People relay other people's ideas all the time. I am not some tender hothouse flower incapable of standing up to a debate. I can't take any of this stuff personally. We are just a bunch of strangers on an Internet forum.

RaptInReverie, I will say that, judging from your photograph, I am probably old enough to be your grandmother, and have been studying astrology at least since you were a little guy. So no need to patronize me.

I will have to let other modern astrologers speak for themselves if they take a dim view of the 12th house. I've explained my personal views in previous posts. And criticize Ptolemy and Valens all you want. {attacking comment - deleted by moderator}
Again, my point isn't meteorology the way you, I, or the National Weather Service sees it. The point, rather, is how people in ancient times said they saw it. Of course, if you've taken Earth Science 101 or somesuch, you will probably have a different personal view than the ancients.

Metaphysics: a branch of philosophy concerned with ultimate reality, that transcends science.

Obscure: not clear or readily discovered.

I think mythology is great. I've studied a reasonable amount of it. I am happy to discuss it any ol' time.

I'm glad you've found the Skyscript site.

Also, keep in mind that our messages are posted on an open thread. If I direct my comments to you, this doesn't mean that I don't think anybody else will read them or respond to them.

[Carris]

Originally Posted by JerryRR

Sidereal Astrologer Jacques Dorsan employs the clockwise house system,12th House = 1st.
Thatcher,Blair and Bush Jr have Sun in the 1st House.

I recommend "The Clockwise House System.",A True Foundation for Sidereal and Tropical Astrology,by Jacques Dorsan.

J.R.

Thanks JR

It might be just as true. If the birth chart shows our characteristics and destiny - that means the planets "imprinted" us the moment we were born or took our first breath. So counting houses should not really matter - clockwise or anticlockwise. The planets will remain frozen in their positions as far as the native is concerned.

The east west axis could mean one thing - and the midheaven-nadir axis could mean another thing. We don't really have to assign numbers to them.

For example - the sun was 3* above the horizon when I was born. Why should it matter whether it was in the western or in the eastern horizon? Unless we take into account that the newborn will continue to be "imprinted" by the planets for 24 hours after his birth. Upon his birth the infant "sees" houses 7-12 up above - and only AFTER his birth, as the earth rotates, he sees houses 1-6.

[sandstone]

hi carris,

interesting comments.. i think the more one understands the mechanics - astronomy and how it works, the better one can understand the astrology. astrology is a symbolic language.. the symbolism often will have a direct connection to nature of the movements.. for example, a popular house system - placidus - is based on the time it takes for the rising degree to reach the midheaven and is not purely a division of space like whole-sign houses for example.. understanding these differences helps to build a better understanding of many of the in's and out's on the reason you might want to use one particular system or approach over another.. interpreting a natal chart in a 'stand alone' manner, is not the same as projecting into time using predictive tools that professional astrologers regularly work with.. this is just one example of where a certain system might work better for one area and not as much for the other.. it is hard to articulate some of this over the net with a typewriter.. the more one reads, the more one is exposed to, and the more one can learn to think it all out for themselves..

regarding the link to book on re-ordering the houses to go in a clockwise manner - this is a good example of what i am trying to touch on in my first paragraph.. this book was actually written in the 70's or 80's.. if you go to google books, you can read some of the references for the book which will give more of an insight into the contents.. the idea of running the houses in the opposite direction is an old one, but as i recall it got some more modern traction with cyril fagan - a siderealist from the early part of the 20th century, along with siderealism too for that matter.. every system in use in astrology usuallly has some basis in astronomy as both these ideas do... the fact is the planetary motions can be described a few different ways and it is arbitrary in that someone wanted to emphasize one approach over another and it was handed down as 'traditional'.. the more obscure ideas withered away or were forgotten, but can never be lost completely for the simple reason - people like to think out of the box and challenge the old ways.. what looks old at one point, looks new at another... and on and on the cycle goes in whatever direction you want to think it is going in..

whether you call the area above the horizon 12th or 1st doesn't really matter.. whether you want to base it on the difference between the rising sign and the sign that precedes the rising sign does have a basis in the history of how astrologers from the past approached this.. so does incorporating the sidereal system verses the tropical system.. all of it becomes relative and up to the person where they want to go with the ideas..

if you think of the angles and planets moving towards these angles as gaining more relevance, then it means you think the angles have greater relevance for the moment when the chart is set for.. i think the idea of the 12th really hinges on the fact planets in the 12th have passed this moment of relevance.. they will continue to move on towards the midheaven and gain relevance again from the point of view of the movement of time bringing these 12th house planets to the midheaven, but from the point of view of there relevance for the moment - it is like there moment is past.. they have already risen and are made more obscure based on this astronomical fact.. how one wants to interpret this in an astrological sense will hinge on many considerations or not, dependent on ones imagination and the exposure they have to working with charts and seeing this phenomenon in action in a real sense.. sorry for the wordy post..

[Carris]

Originally Posted by sandstone

hi carris,

interesting comments.. i think the more one understands the mechanics - astronomy and how it works, the better one can understand the astrology. astrology is a symbolic language.. the symbolism often will have a direct connection to nature of the movements.. for example, a popular house system - placidus - is based on the time it takes for the rising degree to reach the midheaven and is not purely a division of space like whole-sign houses for example.. understanding these differences helps to build a better understanding of many of the in's and out's on the reason you might want to use one particular system or approach over another.. interpreting a natal chart in a 'stand alone' manner, is not the same as projecting into time using predictive tools that professional astrologers regularly work with.. this is just one example of where a certain system might work better for one area and not as much for the other.. it is hard to articulate some of this over the net with a typewriter.. the more one reads, the more one is exposed to, and the more one can learn to think it all out for themselves..

regarding the link to book on re-ordering the houses to go in a clockwise manner - this is a good example of what i am trying to touch on in my first paragraph.. this book was actually written in the 70's or 80's.. if you go to google books, you can read some of the references for the book which will give more of an insight into the contents.. the idea of running the houses in the opposite direction is an old one, but as i recall it got some more modern traction with cyril fagan - a siderealist from the early part of the 20th century, along with siderealism too for that matter.. every system in use in astrology usuallly has some basis in astronomy as both these ideas do... the fact is the planetary motions can be described a few different ways and it is arbitrary in that someone wanted to emphasize one approach over another and it was handed down as 'traditional'.. the more obscure ideas withered away or were forgotten, but can never be lost completely for the simple reason - people like to think out of the box and challenge the old ways.. what looks old at one point, looks new at another... and on and on the cycle goes in whatever direction you want to think it is going in..

whether you call the area above the horizon 12th or 1st doesn't really matter.. whether you want to base it on the difference between the rising sign and the sign that precedes the rising sign does have a basis in the history of how astrologers from the past approached this.. so does incorporating the sidereal system verses the tropical system.. all of it becomes relative and up to the person where they want to go with the ideas..

if you think of the angles and planets moving towards these angles as gaining more relevance, then it means you think the angles have greater relevance for the moment when the chart is set for.. i think the idea of the 12th really hinges on the fact planets in the 12th have passed this moment of relevance.. they will continue to move on towards the midheaven and gain relevance again from the point of view of the movement of time bringing these 12th house planets to the midheaven, but from the point of view of there relevance for the moment - it is like there moment is past.. they have already risen and are made more obscure based on this astronomical fact.. how one wants to interpret this in an astrological sense will hinge on many considerations or not, dependent on ones imagination and the exposure they have to working with charts and seeing this phenomenon in action in a real sense.. sorry for the wordy post..

Sandstone

Yes I guess interpretations of astrology depend on whether we view planets moving towards angles as gaining more relevance rather than already passed them. This is in terms of signs - that is planets move forward from aries to taurus to gemini.

But - Planets conjunct the MC but in the 9th are considered less effective than those in the 10th (even though they should be gaining in relevance as they approach the MC). So planets conjunct the Ascendent but in the 12th would be less effective than those in the 1st. However, the Gaquelin research found planets in 12th to be more relevant than the first.

I was thinking in terms of planets "frozen" in their position at the time of birth - not considering how the planets moved after the birth. For eample: The sun directly overhead at the time of birth would naturally have more influence on the newborn (because we are closest to the sun at that time) than the sun near the horizon - but why should east or west horizon matter?

Why is the sun 3* above the eastern horizon (i.e the 12th house) considered evil whereas the sun 3* above the western horizon (i.e. the 7th house) is considered okay? Or any planet rising or setting. I guess I feel very protective about my poor harassed 12th house.

But I guess you're right " astrology is a symbolic language.. the symbolism often will have a direct connection to nature of the movement"

[sandstone]

hi carris,

there are at least 2 motions that one needs to understand, maybe 3.. one is the earth turning on its axis which gives us the impression planets rise in the east and set in the west... this is what i and others called 'diurnal' or daily motion of the planets.. the movement is counterclockwise in appearance - planets going thru the houses in a backwards numbered way from 1 to 12, to 11, - 10 - 9 all the way to 7.. think of this like sunrise - sun on the ascendant house 1 - to sunset cusp of house 7..

the 2nd motion is based on a yearly movement with the signs being the basis for watching this motion.. sun on the first day of spring - 0 aries, moves to first day of summer - 0 cancer and around and back to the first day of spring, the arbitrary starting point for the 12 signs..

in your example on a planet moving from the 9th to the 10th house - this is the yearly cycle that you are highlighting, not the daily cycle.. this might be part of the basis for some of the confusion.. daily cycle - sun moves from 1 to 12, 10 to 9 and on and on backwards thru the house numbers.. yearly cycle - sun moves from the 9th sign/house to the 10th, or 12th to the 1st.. without understanding these 2 cycles clearly, there is room for confusion.

the reason east and west matter : planets rise in the east and set in the west. there is an association with strength given to planets that are rising, and weakness to planets that are setting.. this is especially true if one breaks down planets into male/female type stereotypes - mars is better rising, and venus is better setting as it is more in keeping with their inherent nature.. not sure if you are following me here.. generally planets that rise ahead of the sun are oriental to the sun and considered in a more dominant position then planets that set after the sun or are occidental to the sun. i would give you examples off your chart for you to understand it better, but perhaps i can do this with with madoffs chart
since it is publicly available on the link above.. the planets oriental to his sun are moon, mercury, saturn and jupiter.. the planets occidental are uranus, venus, mars, pluto, and neptune.. on the other hand just considering east and west - these same planets occidental to his sun - excluding uranus) are all rising in the east and gaining strength based on the daily motion.. i am comparing daily motion to motion in relation to the sun here..

understanding the basis for the many things that astrologers talk about and the way they try to figure out planetary strength are some of the many considerations that can be made.. the planets have to be understood celestially - sign position and terrestrially - house position.. a planet that is strong celestially - in a sign that it is at home in, while in a house that doesn't help it is a mixed bag.. a planet weak celestially, but in a house where it is strong is also a mixed bag.. these are more of the many considerations astrologers regularly try to sort out.

about your question 3 degree above the ascendant is in the 12th house - this is a byproduct of newer house systems which don't connect with the original ideas associated with the 12th which would have been based on whole-sign houses.. if a planet is 3 degrees above the eastern horizon line( ascendant) but in the same sign as the ascendant degree( what the word horoscope originally meant) it would still be in the 1st house according to the older astrological system.. in other words the house system was based on the signs, not on other considerations introduced later in astrology.. the sign on the ascendant is the sign for the 1st house.. the sign preceding the sign on the ascendant is the 12th sign to the ascendant sign and the 12th house... capeesh? it isn't about the degree but about the sign and whether the planet is in the same sign as the ascendant sign or not..

anyway, that is it for today.. cheers

[Carris]

Originally Posted by sandstone

hi carris,

there are at least 2 motions that one needs to understand, maybe 3.. one is the earth turning on its axis which gives us the impression planets rise in the east and set in the west... this is what i and others called 'diurnal' or daily motion of the planets.. the movement is counterclockwise in appearance - planets going thru the houses in a backwards numbered way from 1 to 12, to 11, - 10 - 9 all the way to 7.. think of this like sunrise - sun on the ascendant house 1 - to sunset cusp of house 7..

the 2nd motion is based on a yearly movement with the signs being the basis for watching this motion.. sun on the first day of spring - 0 aries, moves to first day of summer - 0 cancer and around and back to the first day of spring, the arbitrary starting point for the 12 signs..

in your example on a planet moving from the 9th to the 10th house - this is the yearly cycle that you are highlighting, not the daily cycle.. this might be part of the basis for some of the confusion.. daily cycle - sun moves from 1 to 12, 10 to 9 and on and on backwards thru the house numbers.. yearly cycle - sun moves from the 9th sign/house to the 10th, or 12th to the 1st.. without understanding these 2 cycles clearly, there is room for confusion.

the reason east and west matter : planets rise in the east and set in the west. there is an association with strength given to planets that are rising, and weakness to planets that are setting.. this is especially true if one breaks down planets into male/female type stereotypes - mars is better rising, and venus is better setting as it is more in keeping with their inherent nature.. not sure if you are following me here.. generally planets that rise ahead of the sun are oriental to the sun and considered in a more dominant position then planets that set after the sun or are occidental to the sun. i would give you examples off your chart for you to understand it better, but perhaps i can do this with with madoffs chart
since it is publicly available on the link above.. the planets oriental to his sun are moon, mercury, saturn and jupiter.. the planets occidental are uranus, venus, mars, pluto, and neptune.. on the other hand just considering east and west - these same planets occidental to his sun - excluding uranus) are all rising in the east and gaining strength based on the daily motion.. i am comparing daily motion to motion in relation to the sun here..

understanding the basis for the many things that astrologers talk about and the way they try to figure out planetary strength are some of the many considerations that can be made.. the planets have to be understood celestially - sign position and terrestrially - house position.. a planet that is strong celestially - in a sign that it is at home in, while in a house that doesn't help it is a mixed bag.. a planet weak celestially, but in a house where it is strong is also a mixed bag.. these are more of the many considerations astrologers regularly try to sort out.

about your question 3 degree above the ascendant is in the 12th house - this is a byproduct of newer house systems which don't connect with the original ideas associated with the 12th which would have been based on whole-sign houses.. if a planet is 3 degrees above the eastern horizon line( ascendant) but in the same sign as the ascendant degree( what the word horoscope originally meant) it would still be in the 1st house according to the older astrological system.. in other words the house system was based on the signs, not on other considerations introduced later in astrology.. the sign on the ascendant is the sign for the 1st house.. the sign preceding the sign on the ascendant is the 12th sign to the ascendant sign and the 12th house... capeesh? it isn't about the degree but about the sign and whether the planet is in the same sign as the ascendant sign or not..

anyway, that is it for today.. cheers

Sandstone - Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.

I guess its difficult for me to get inside their heads - how and why did they decide these things? What was the logic they used? Was is just arbitrary or did they actually do rigorous research? Maybe it had to do with the authoritarian culture of that time. How often were their predictions correct - did they atleast have a 50% accuracy rate? Or did they just twist, manipulate and pull some new convoluted method out of the air when faced with inaccuracy of their predictions? I guess we'll never know.

Thanks anyway!

[sandstone]

thanks carris,

this is the most scientific i am going to get with this..

astrology based on observation, as opposed to theory is much more rewarding.. it's good to learn the theory, but i think it's wise to question the theory too.. hopefully your astrology will be based on observation mostly as opposed to theory.. that is what i aspire towards.

[greybeard]

Dirunal motion is clockwise. The Sun rises at 9 am on the clock dial, goes up to 12, down.....clockwise.

Zodiacal motion is counterclockwise.

[gaer]

Before I answer, I should mention that I am totally aware that my chart is read differently in whole sign. It is not a system I feel comfortable with, but this is personal and not based on "logic"...

Originally Posted by sandstone

...but a lot of what a person is about i don't think can be gotten from a chart.. this might sound blasphemous coming from someone who has a real love of astrology..i mix my love of astrology with some practicality..

I'm a week late because I can NOT get notifications working. <grrr>

Doesn't this sort of come down to free will vs. predetermination? If so, how much of our lives is predetermined? How much is up to us?

I think this is the essential question. It involves our worldview, and our worldview is going to very much affect our view of astrology.

i find your idea of the 12th being time to pay the piper interesting. i think of the planet saturn as having more to do with this then the 12th house.. 30 years is a saturn cycle as well, which happens to coincide with your break from family tradition described in your post.. and fwiw, i tend to see your saturn as first as opposed to 12th, but don't want to make this a conversation on house systems.

Of course there is a cycle that is a bit shorter than 30 years for Saturn, thus the "Saturn return". I tend to think that the way this cycle plays out is very much connected to many other factors. For instance, if at the time of the return Saturn conjuncts one planet that is part of a grand trine, isn't it obvious that this will play out very differently from Saturn conjuncting a planet in a difficult T-square?

The "pay the piper" idea has to do with the idea that for those who believe in reincarnation, there are things that are not addressed in previous lifetimes. If we look at life from this viewpoint, which is most definitely not going to work at all for people who don't think this way, we might feel in ourselves a habit or weakness that we have ignored, and in this lifetime it becomes crucial to finally face it.

When I was still fairly young, a much older man said to me: "You are not kind."

It was understated, and of course there are few who are totally UNkind - or totally kind, so it was also said a bit maliciously. But there was great truth in what he said. I was a young "idealist" who was honorable and who stood up for principles, but when it came to the pain in ordinary people's lives, I just didn't see it, or rather I did not have compassion about it.

Look at my chart, then consider someone with the 12th house placements I have who is not compassionate. I think we all have to learn compassion, but I had a mega-dose of experiences coming my way that would show me I had no choice but to change. I went through deep depression, but I coped. At about age 30, I was knocked on my butt, and in the years that followed, during the Saturn transits to my 2nd house, I felt as if everything had been taken away from me. It was a very "internal" experience.

I am repeating those same transits right now. But the second time I was prepared. That makes all the difference in the world.

At any rate, do you see where my "pay the piper" viewpoint comes from? The whole idea of "server or suffer" may sound like a cliche, and I won't apply this idea to the chart or life of anyone else, but for me it was true.

escapism comes in all sorts of shapes and forms. one could say it is lethal generally, to which i would agree, but often times it isn't too.

For me the key word here is "moderation".

this is partly why i was intrigued with raptinreverie's comment that self undoing can come out of any part of the chart which i find myself in agreement with.

My view: to link any kind of experience to one and only one "factor" in a chart is not going to work. We all have strengths and weaknesses, and ultimately not acknowledging our weaknesses and working to do something about them is "self-undoing", in my opinion. In the end it always comes down to the same idea: the chart must be considered AS A WHOLE. To me that is, in the end, always largely intuitive and beyond description.

for me we are all connected and spiritual by nature, with some more quick to recognize this then others, while some live out there life in a more materialistic manner completely caught up in the day to day activities that define how they see themselves.. we are all different.

That's not my view of astrology - it's my view of LIFE.

Having said that, I think we have to always remember that the way we view life is totally tied to the way we view everything in life - including astrology.

[Carris]

Originally Posted by gaer

I was a young "idealist" who was honorable and who stood up for principles, but when it came to the pain in ordinary people's lives, I just didn't see it, or rather I did not have compassion about it.

Look at my chart, then consider someone with the 12th house placements I have who is not compassionate. I think we all have to learn compassion, but I had a mega-dose of experiences coming my way that would show me I had no choice but to change. I went through deep depression, but I coped. At about age 30, I was knocked on my butt, and in the years that followed, during the Saturn transits to my 2nd house, I felt as if everything had been taken away from me. It was a very "internal" experience.

This is so true for me. My saturn in 12th made me see the importance of compassion and empathy - all my ill-considered careless inconsiderate words/actions came back to bite me in the most painful way possible. The problem was I never thought of myself as an inconsiderate person when I was younger - I just behaved the way I saw my parents, family and community behave - why did saturn not correct me when I was younger? Why did he wait till I was in my twenties to show me the reality? In that sense saturn is harshest of all teachers - but perhaps the most effective - you never want to forget his lessons.

Originally Posted by gaer

Doesn't this sort of come down to free will vs. predetermination? If so, how much of our lives is predetermined? How much is up to us?

From what I have read, we have free-will only in regards our attitude, thoughts, words and actions. The major events and situations of our lives are fixed before we incarnate - this is kind of like choosing a college program for our spiritual growth - the study course and exams are fixed but it completely depends on us how we perform. For example, a soul might choose to experience poverty - but it depends on him whether he will be strong and work his way out of it or become complaining, bitter and apathetic. It does sound harsh - but thats the way the spirit world works.

[sandstone]

hi gaer,

i like your energy and philosophical position on the topics you are discussing here.

there are so many ways to take the astro data and process it.. i find myself having to be respectful of others views, while still holding to my own.. let me share some of what i see off your chart as a means of sharing some of my astro views on the 12th and etc. however anyone wants to view life around the age of 30, it is an interesting turning point and one that is well documented in psychology and astrology.. mostly astrologers associate this time frame with cycle of saturn, its sign and place shedding light on how it might unfold for the person. often a major change happens around this time where a person who has been going in one direction has some type of wake up call whereby they need to consider going in a different direction if self realization is going to remain a possibility..

i like looking at signs and how planets align within them.. for me virgo will always be the 12th sign to libra.. in this sense saturn has a 12th house/sign to the strong focus of libra in your chart. further to this i like looking at 40 degree aspects which show up as conjunctions in the navamsha chart that folks in vedic like to use.. this chart brings together saturn/neptune in your chart.. i see neptune as having a 12th house flavour to it which would include concepts life karma, and reincarnation which you mention in your post.. i guess that is all i want to say about whether saturn is in the 12th or 1st or whatever here.. there are so many ways to slice an apple!

yes our world view will impact our view of astrology and can quickly explain why astrology is practiced differently in india then it generally is in the west.. it would also explain why the fascination with hellenistic or medieval astrology seems to capture some folks imagination more then others too.

yes, the position of saturn in a chart is influenced by a number of astro factors that some might or might not consider depending on there level of involvement.. i do see the 'pay the piper' as having much to do with saturn too, but i guess i am repeating myself! saturn transits in a younger persons chart, or someone prior to the age of 30 can knock a person down and force them to look hard on there life and where they are going long term..

thanks for sharing the story on the man who told you ' you are not kind'.. that was helpful for you at that moment in time.. i think idealism goes with being young, sometimes more so.. those of us from the era of the 60s and 70s especially in the west seemed to have a lot of it.. i say that for myself as well and while i may still be idealistic, i feel like i have been able to maintain a position of compassion in it all as well.. life gives people different lessons, or opportunities at different times.. sometimes they might not look like opportunities too..

i really liked your post and comments gaer.. maybe it would have been wiser for me to quote the whole thing and go over it point by point, but i haven't here.. ideas of compassion make me think a few different astro thoughts and while i can see some connection to the 12th, i think jupiter and neptune and the elements water and air which i think have some crazy dynamic between one another that i have yet to fully understand.. thanks for your post..

[lilly02]

Originally Posted by RaptInReverie

Hello,

Not every astrologer would agree with this 6 degree rule. I would interpret your Saturn as being in the twelfth and conjunct your ascendant, not as being in the first and twelfth simultaneously. On the other hand, an astrologer who uses whole signs would interpret your Saturn as being in the first conjunct your ascendent.

Also, have you used the Gauquelin Chart feature on astro.com? You might have other planets in some of the other key sectors.

Hello RaptInReverie,

Thank you for your answer and opinion about the 6° rule.

I used AstroWin for Gauquelin Plus Zone Planets. According to this software I have Saturn and Neptune in this zone. I have North Node rising too.

I found Howard Sasportas's "Twelve houses" ; “Your Secret Self –Illuminating the mysteries of your twelfth house” by Tracy Marks and Lake Gina’s “ Symbol of the Souls” very rich in information about this house.

The 12th house is associated with the "umbilical effect" and how the embryo is affected, the childhood and the early parental relationship. There are also the institutions like hospitals, orphanages, prisons, libraries , mental institutions and other institutions where the people are stored away, hidden, in the background. If a person choose a job in such an institution this house may be positive. It is a good house for research, withdrawal, public welfare, charity, voluntary work.
The confinement may be voluntary or involuntary. We may ” choose” to live in some remote location or work to serve humanity or being involuntary confined in a mental institution, hospital, prison, etc.
The energies of a planet in a 12th house are turned inward and the effects may be advantageous or detrimental. It is also a karmic experience along with South Node.
The 12th house may be a hidden weakness but also a hidden strength and “dream life”, imagination, meditation, introspection.

The 12 th house sign cusp is important , the 12th house ruler and the aspects from the 12th planet and his ruler, the houses implied in aspects are all important.

For instance a strong aspect between my 12th and my 8th house influence my dream life (I dream about the death person before her/his death. At 7 years I first announced my parents that somebody in our family was to die and two days after my dream there was an accident and my mother’s brother died in a sudden way ; after this first experience, dreams about death occurred all the tife.) This aspect emphasis an interest in occult, psychology, too.

We have aspects, energies but we don’t know how a person uses them. The chart as a whole may be interesting but analyzing only the 12th house planets we can’t see all the picture.

Moon in the 12th is concerned with professions but there is also the possibility with the Moon here to live the mother's death in the early childhood. Of course, not all the Moons here are concerned with this, the other elements in the chart give a direction for this Moon. I know a friend with the Moon in the 12th conjunct the Ascendant. Her Moon is in Scorpio as the Ascendant, and indeed her mother died when she was 6. Moon in Scorpio is also concerned with death of the mother.

The 12th house is the hidden facet but also the hidden strenght. There may be difficult to tolerate failure ( with Leo, Sun or Saturn here). There is a capacity to create an intention and to manifest it in practice with Sun or Leo.

The 12 th house aspects and the houses involved in aspects are very important. With many trines or sextiles or beneficial planets in the 12th - the previous life was full of love, generosity, inner developpement. In this life the person may be rewarded for his past positive actions.
The energies from the 12th are directed in the other houses with aspects from the 12th and the houses they rule. But there are 2 possibilities: a postive construction of these aspects or a tendecy toward escapism.

Tracy Mark has a psychological approach and I found very interesting her book for the positive and negative sides - involving planets, aspects, houses involved- the whole chart.

[gaer]

Originally Posted by sandstone

hi gaer,

i like your energy and philosophical position on the topics you are discussing here.

I don't want to write a book, so I'll try to answer some of your thoughts, on the fly. It's great to have an in depth discussion of such matters.

About age 30: the link to Saturn is obvious. What I hear less about is Uranus, which forms a square to itself at age 21. Then at age 28 (approximately) it trines itself. At 21 we have an incredibly strong need for independence and often find outselves totally at odds with our parents, or society in general. "Never trust anyone over 30." The middle 20s can be a period of incredible freedom, and by that time we may have jobs that allow us to do the things we want to do. We are old enough to be treated seriously. Our bodies are still young. At this age we see athletes hit their peak, although in some sports they may continue for another decade. But not in sports like tennis, where endurance and recovery time rule everything.

Somewhere between about age 28 and a year or so later, as age 30 is just around the corner, all sorts of things change. People who are unusually wise in their 20s sail through this difficult period, but I think even they usually have to make some kind of difficult adjustment. Those of us who have not been doing our homework get slammed by reality. I think that about age 30 we realize, for the first time, how mortal we are.

At age 30, approximately, I not only had Saturn conjuncting itself, it all happened in the 12th. At the same time I had Pluto transiting my 2nd house, all my Libra planets, including Sun and Moon. Uranus conjuncted Mars. I think what happened should be rather obvious to anyone who has studied charts and transits.

I think we are all potentially able to read our own charts better than anyone else, dependent on how hard we have worked to be honest with ourselves.

When Saturn entered the first quadrant when I was very young, I was cut off from other people. I lived in my own world and had no friends. Almost exactly as Saturn moved past my IC, and away from my 2nd house and 3rd houses, everything changed, though slowly. At the end of high school, just about the time Saturn moved past my DC into the 7th, I got nothing but recognition, and the moment I entered college my life totally changed. Looking back at the whole cycle, I can see clearly just how it all played out. I had my greatest success about the time Saturn passed my MC. I became invisible, again, when Saturn passed into my first quadrant again for the 3rd time (past the second Saturn return). Just now Saturn has moved past my 2nd house planets, presently Rx but not again getting any closer than 5 degrees to my Moon, and after three years of nearly losing my career it has come roaring back.

So in my life these cycles have been eerily valid.

The "pay the piper" theme in my life is directly linked to dealing with loneliness (Saturn/Venus in the 12th) combined with explosive, destructive anger (Mars/Pluto square, among other things). It is about learning that loneliness is not caused by being a victim, it is caused by what we project, and I was projecting arrogance, coldness, and to some extent cruelty (because of fighting back imappropriately), and it was all destroying my life.

When I think in terms of reincarnation, even considering it as a reality, I always see myself as a responsible, honorable person with power, but one who was incredibly intollerant, judgmental. Sort of a cold-hearted judge, condemning other people whom I did not see as worthy of being respected or deserving compassion/mercy. Everytime I go in that direction in this life, I get totally slammed. I see other people getting away with it, although I am sure that ultimately it will destroy them too. For me it feels as though I get no breaks in that direction, and it feels RIGHT that I don't get them. At some point we become aware of incredible faults, and ignorance is no longer a defense. We feel that they are deeply ingrained, habits, and suddenly they just don't work any more. We HAVE to change.

That is how I see 12th house lesson. Thus the potential undoing. You learn and change, or you are destroyed. No more free passes. Time to do hard work!

That's where the comment about "not being kind" came from. I was radiating coldness, arrogance. People who are very judgmental are cruel. When I began studying astrology and considering reincarnation, it was very easy to imagine what I said above. You can't be kind in this world if you are convinced that you are better, or superior to others. And that was where I was stuck. I still take on that attitude when I am angry or resentful, but now I catch myself about 1000 times faster and keep moving forward on a different path.

[RaptInReverie]

Gaer,

I also have Venus in 26°26’ Leo in the twelfth house and Virgo on the Asc. Everything you said about your inherent tendencies of intolerance, arrogance, superiority, and judgment really resonate with me, for I have them too. Fortunately I have learned early on how destructive these traits can be, and I have humbled myself tremendously, although I have a ways to go still. I receive no leniency in this area either; when I resort to these old habits, I am immediately chastised, whereas, like you said, other people seem to get away with it.

A lot of this has to do with Saturn and its aspects; however, my Saturn is not in the twelfth.

[Carris]

Originally Posted by RaptInReverie

Gaer,

I also have Venus in 26°26’ Leo in the twelfth house and Virgo on the Asc. Everything you said about your inherent tendencies of intolerance, arrogance, superiority, and judgment really resonate with me, for I have them too. Fortunately I have learned early on how destructive these traits can be, and I have humbled myself tremendously, although I have a ways to go still. I receive no leniency in this area either; when I resort to these old habits, I am immediately chastised, whereas, like you said, other people seem to get away with it.

A lot of this has to do with Saturn and its aspects; however, my Saturn is not in the twelfth.

Maybe the 12th has to do with "instant karma" as a form of spiritual growth? Since atleast the three of us are experiencing our 12th planets in this way. I wonder if other 12th people experience their 12th planets in a similar way.

It could also be seen in terms of the axis - since the 6th requires hard work to maintain our earthly selves, maybe the 12th requires this kind of "hard work" (i.e. to always have to be kind, compassionate, considerate, etc. Not allowed even an inch of deviation) to maintain our spiritual selves.

Also RIR, your venus is in a Gauquelin sector - do you have a venus type of career or vocation? Or do you have to work in a venus like way?

[powerion]

this!!!!
"Maybe the 12th has to do with "instant karma"

[StillOne]

Originally Posted by gaer

You can't be kind in this world if you are convinced that you are better, or superior to others.

Very wise assessment gaer. I enjoyed reading and pondering your post. Thanks for the thoughtful insight.

I'm not sure if I've mentioned it yet in this post... I also have my Moon in the 12th house Gemini (equal, placidus and whole sign). Any thoughts on this placement?

For a long time now I've strived to be humble and compassionate. I do need quite a bit of solitude in order to recharge. I've tried to reduce my ego although I feel I still have work to do there. Gemini makes my emotional structure more analytical... it actually works surprisingly well with my Mercury in scorpio although they are quincunx...

[Carris]

Originally Posted by StillOne

Very wise assessment gaer. I enjoyed reading and pondering your post. Thanks for the thoughtful insight.

I'm not sure if I've mentioned it yet in this post... I also have my Moon in the 12th house Gemini (equal, placidus and whole sign). Any thoughts on this placement?

For a long time now I've strived to be humble and compassionate. I do need quite a bit of solitude in order to recharge. I've tried to reduce my ego although I feel I still have work to do there. Gemini makes my emotional structure more analytical... it actually works surprisingly well with my Mercury in scorpio although they are quincunx...

The moon is supposed to show where we are most at home, comfortable, where things come automatically, unconsciously, instinctively, spontaneously. Perhaps your moon in 12th makes you feel comfortable talking/communicating/seeking/learning (gemini) about 12th house significations (spirituality, selflessness, altruism, letting go, feeling detached from the world, compassion, etc). Perhaps, the moon would make these things innate, instinctive, spontaneous in you. If the moon is the ruler of the ascendent, then this would be even more so.

As far as "instant karma" is concerned, maybe the 12th would try to curb the moon's negative aspects - for example you would be instantly chastised for getting too emotional, being irrational, moody, nad habits, prejudices, etc.

Does this sound somewhat true for you?

[sandstone]

hi gaer,

thanks for your insightful post... i like your overview on how the cycles overlap and suggestion to not ignore the uranus cycle or the fact that pluto transit to the libra planets coincide with saturn return to better describe your unique experience around the age of 30.

i see the saturn/venus conjunction and the mars/pluto square in your chart having a lot to do with this observation made by the man when you were very young.. for me saturn can be the judgmental part that gives the cold shoulder to those that don't measure up to ones sense of values as described by venus to an extent.. perhaps saturn/venus conj the 12th doesn't allow one to fool themselves, but i am not so sure.. again, i see saturn rising as not letting a person get away with anything and more 1st house in nature, but i am going over previous ground here.. the issue of what house planets land in will remain a very personal matter.. the chart can only properly be read by the persons who it belongs to as you said and to which i agree.

regardless, planetary combos like this conjunction of saturn/venus are significant and need to be understood fully.. less is more would be a part of it.. cutting things/people out of your life superfluous to it would be another part of it.. that might come across as cold and ruthless to others, but more pragmatic to you.. saturn will have dominate..

planetary combos - especially a conjunction, pack a strong punch in a chart, with the mars/pluto square providing the follow thru in no uncertain terms..i think you've expressed your personal understanding of this 4 planet combo together really well.. maybe there is more 12th house to it then i am seeing as i haven't lived your life...

i think you have also articulated the cycle of saturn thru the different hemispheres quite well here too.. i was commenting on another thread to someone how saturn is moving up towards their midheaven which often coincides with a period of achievement if a person is strongly focused on a goal they are working towards with determination.. this will hinge on saturns natal location and other factors too, but saturn rising up by transit towards the midheaven is very different then saturn moving down over the ascendant into the lower part of the chart. in this sense the 12th house area in relation to saturns cycle is a type of letting go and retaining the wisdom of what did or didn't work in preparation for the next cycle.. we only have a few of these cycles in life - usually 2 or 3 at most and not everyone has saturn in close proximity to the ascendant as do the both of us.. thanks for the comments.

[StillOne]

Originally Posted by Carris

Does this sound somewhat true for you?

It sure does. Thanks for the interpretation Carris!

Originally Posted by Carris

The moon is supposed to show where we are most at home, comfortable, where things come automatically, unconsciously, instinctively, spontaneously. Perhaps your moon in 12th makes you feel comfortable talking/communicating/seeking/learning (gemini) about 12th house significations (spirituality, selflessness, altruism, letting go, feeling detached from the world, compassion, etc). Perhaps, the moon would make these things innate, instinctive, spontaneous in you. If the moon is the ruler of the ascendent, then this would be even more so.

Thanks for reminding me about the other areas that the Moon is responsible for. I tend to get caught thinking that the Moon is only responsible for emotions when that's just one aspect of it! Also I'm glad that you mentioned that there would be additional focus on this since the Moon would be my chart ruler.

This makes things quite interesting in light of my interests in 12th house matters as we've discussed them in this thread. I agree with your assessment that I quite enjoy exploring the realms of spirituality; contemplating, discussing, learning about, etc. I do find myself rather grounded in 12th house elements (I also have SN conjunct Saturn here) and feel that there may be previous lives spent in this type of area as it seems like a familiar realm to me. One thought I had, since my NN is in the 6th, was that maybe my destiny involves bringing 12th house experience/knowledge into some type of service for people.

Originally Posted by Carris

As far as "instant karma" is concerned, maybe the 12th would try to curb the moon's negative aspects - for example you would be instantly chastised for getting too emotional, being irrational, moody, nad habits, prejudices, etc.

Indeed, I always feel bad when I go against common moral beliefs. I strive to not engage my ego. I can't stand arrogance.

[Carris]

There are some really intelligent and interesting ancient astrological teachings...

Around the fifth century B.C. there appeared for the first time maxims that related a man's birthdate to his possible destiny. At first these predictions were obviously made only for the kings. The forecasts were based on the motion of the planets. Here are a few examples translated by Sachs:

If a child is born when the moon has come forth, (then his life will be) bright, excellent, regular and long.
If a child is born when Jupiter has come forth, (then his life will be) regular, well; he will become rich, he will grow old, (his) days will be long.
"If a child is born when Venus has come forth, (then his life will be) exceptionally calm; wherever he may go, it will be favorable; his days will be long.

In general, the rising (i.e. the 12th HOUSE!) of heavenly bodies was considered favorable because then the positive characteristics of the gods were at their peak. By contrast, the setting of the same bodies was held to be a bad omen.

The tablets that recorded the forecasts based on the setting of the planets have been lost, but we know the evil influence attributed to the setting from the previsions based on the motions of two planets at a time, one of which is on the way up, the other on the way down: "If a child is born when Jupiter comes forth and Venus has set, it will go excellently with that man; his wife will leave and . . ." The rest of the fragment is missing, but its meaning is clear. We have seen that Jupiter represents the King. If it rises when Venus, its bride, disappears over the horizon: "his wife will leave," that is, she will have to die before him.

The decline of Jupiter was a bad omen for the King: "If a child is born when Venus comes forth and Jupiter has set, his wife will be stronger than he." As she rises, Venus dominates her groom, Jupiter, who is disappearing in the darkness. Some royal predictions based on the twelve signs of the zodiac have been found.

The Chaldeans were quite clear about the rising and setting of planets - they definitely thought of the 12th house as a very positive place!

Astrology was born five thousand years ago in Chaldea. The Chaldeans developed the zodiacal system, which astronomers still use. The Babylonians, who succeeded the Sumerians, developed the art of prediction to a considerable extent. The Chaldean priest-astronomers divided the sky into three large strips, which they called "the heavenly paths" - in the middle was Anu's way, flanked by the paths of Enlil and Ea. Anu's way was the zodiac astronomers use today: a space sixteen degrees wide, which contains the constantly repeated path of the sun, the moon, and the planets.

The zodiacal belt with its constellations was known in Babylonia as early as 700 b.c. The rules by which predictions were made were a mixture of observations and analogies. For instance, the shape of Scorpio reminded the Chaldean priest of the hated insect whose pincers seemed to be marked in the sky by two brilliant stars. The celestial Scorpio was held to be just as fearsome as the poisonous scorpion of the desert: "If Mars approaches Scorpio, the King must die of the bite of this insect."

The priests had some difficulty in following Mercury, since that planet, the closest to the sun, is often hidden by the latter's stronger light. The Chaldeans held it to be the dwelling of Nebo, a god who was untrustworthy, shy, shrewd, and voluble.

[Anachiel]

I'm going out on a limb here and...somewhere this was discussed...that the cusps we use actually are the middle of the house. So, for example, the cusp of the 12th is really not the beginning of that house but, rather the middle of it.

In light of this, that would mean that the ASC has some of itself extending into what we now call the 12th. It would make sense in light of the above that when the planet is rising it still has "good" effect because it is still in that ASC area mentioned. Gah! I wish I could find that reference but...it will turn up....

Additionally, when we take the signficator of a house (like in horary this used much more), we are then simply looking at what that planet is doing with or to other planets to find an answer. Whereas, in natal astrology the placements of the planets seem to be emphasized. Therein, might be part of the conundrum when we speak about planets being in the 12th. They may actually still be in the ASC according to older rules. Perhaps the 12th is not directly above the ASC but farther up....

Also, this may be where the signs and houses started, at one point in recent (modern) history to be the same thing, like Aries=the 1st and Pisces the 12th, etc. Perhaps there is some division that we are not seeing there as well that distinguishes, along with the cusp of the houses, the difference between the ASC and the 12th.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Anachiel

I'm going out on a limb here and...somewhere this was discussed...that the cusps we use actually are the middle of the house. So, for example, the cusp of the 12th is really not the beginning of that house but, rather the middle of it.

In light of this, that would mean that the ASC has some of itself extending into what we now call the 12th. It would make sense in light of the above that when the planet is rising it still has "good" effect because it is still in that ASC area mentioned. Gah! I wish I could find that reference but...it will turn up....

Anachiel, it was on the "Whole Sign Or Placidus?" thread that dr. farr mentioned that although "cusps" are now used as "borders", historically in fact "cusps" actually ARE the middle of the house as you have recalled - and there was a discussion of this at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...413#post311413

Originally Posted by dr. farr

Cusps:

Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword-so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something, and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point"; now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other. And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded! In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses-each house-that is the "cusp" of each house-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.
Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)
Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything, but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time-ie, late 8th to early 9th century-this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices, rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

I quite agree with Waybread in the statement, "so what?" (if old time astrologers did or didn't do something) For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign-it worked better (FOR ME) I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago: only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above, does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?
Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched; but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners-to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...

[greybeard]

Dorotheus, 1st century AD, seems to have used houses, for he speaks of "cadent" and " the seventh from the Ascendant," and Valens, 2nd century AD, describes the Porphyry quadrant system of houses. The basis for so dividing the sky, according to Valens, was that a noticeable decrease in the strength of the planets as they became more distant from the angle whose quadrant they occupied seemed to occur, and the houses may have been developed at least in part with a view to identifying these zones of power.