Cognitive Bias and Research

[Rebel Uranian]

I've seen tons of cognitive bias when determining whether or not a chart reading is correct. The best way to avoid this is to memorize one or another list of informal fallacies.


If you don't mind (or even if you do,) I'm going to rant about my issues for legitimate educational purposes. I mean, seriously, I'd rather not rant since it makes me sound wussy, but I have to:

Once I was learning astrology and getting my chart read. People said things like "needing a lot of alone time" and "more receptive than expressive." Of course I need a lot of alone time, but I thought that I should say I didn't because I didn't think I needed any more than anyone else, because I mean everyone is exactly like me inside, they're just more conformist and therefore I am cooler. But more receptive than expressive? What does that mean? I listen more than I talk, I tend to subconsciously try to dominate more than submit, I think more than I feel... We cannot make yin-yang blanket statements. I just assumed the opposite blanket statement, which would be that I am more expressive than receptive, because minus (upon investigation, apparently extreme) introversion and a couple of other things, of course I'm more expressive. After all, I can't tell how much I talk relative to other people because I'm not around other people all the time, but I remember people saying that I talked too much a couple of times and I am really worried about talking too much so it must be true. Of course, talking a lot sometimes and not at all on other times is normal, provided that no amount of time is specified. But most people don't know that.

Of course, I initially thought it was a miracle that they were specific enough to say that I feel more than think when I'm clearly rational and it's essentially a character trait of mine, or that I have illusions. But some things apply to all of humanity, including irrationality and having illusions, and the people who pretend that they are not irrational and do not have illusions (while certain supposed Neptune types, such as me do) are not only irrational and eluded but delusional, as I have given plenty of proof here muahahaha.


TL;DR: Learn decent basic inductive logic before you do chart readings or use chart readings to avoid cognitive bias.

If you even merely skimmed this thread, please click the following links!!!
Subconscious cold reading, Warm reading (read these especially if you're a practicing astrologer)
Fallacies (alternative link)

[sandstone]

i look forward to reading your views on astrology charts of others here on the forum rebel u..

[Rebel Uranian]

You're welcome. Astrology in its current state is useless to me, and right now I'm giving up on it but possibly picking it back up later.

[sandstone]

i can relate.. i hope you continue or come back to it as i think you have great potential whatever way you decide to go.

[Rebel Uranian]

OK, this thread probably comes off as a bunch of jargon, but it's really a safety issue.

[sandstone]

they have ethical rules in place for the professional practice of astrology.. maybe they aren't good enough.. is that some of what you think?

[Rebel Uranian]

Yes, but I can't get them to change them so I won't try. All I'd be doing if I could/did is putting the "logic" back in "astrological" so it's no longer all New-Agey and "astroal" ("astral" spelled wrong?), and I don't think people want that since it'd be "too sciency and impersonal". IMO, death predictions not taken seriously are relatively harmless compared to people taking wrong information about themselves or others (or even human nature) seriously.

[Moog]

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

Yes, but I can't get them to change them so I won't try. All I'd be doing if I could/did is putting the "logic" back in "astrological" so it's no longer all New-Agey and "astroal" ("astral" spelled wrong?), and I don't think people want that since it'd be "too sciency and impersonal". IMO, death predictions not taken seriously are relatively harmless compared to people taking wrong information about themselves or others (or even human nature) seriously.

There's always some who will appreciate more rigorous or scientific inquiry into astrology. I'm one.

[Rebel Uranian]

Cool. I'm probably only going to get on here to do that sparsely.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

Yes, but I can't get them to change them so I won't try. All I'd be doing if I could/did is putting the "logic" back in "astrological" so it's no longer all New-Agey and "astroal" ("astral" spelled wrong?), and I don't think people want that since it'd be "too sciency and impersonal".

IMO, death predictions not taken seriously are relatively harmless compared to people taking wrong information about themselves or others (or even human nature) seriously.

IMO 'death prediction' is an over-exaggerated mis-nomer of an ancient technique, because

– when used as originally intended - the Hyleg and the Alcocoden are merely potential indicators of the basic Vital Life Force potential available to the native in the absence of any form of intervention.

A most important factor is that an inexact birth time means that the Hyleg and Alcocoden are uncertain and therefore renders any such assessment impossible

Originally Posted by Omnisphericus

So, Hyleg and Alcocoden are showing the Vital Life Force of the native. They show how much years in life do you have according to the 'Esse' or the condition of your body and soul. With the modern medicine it seems out that this Esse is prolonged,

If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.

dr. farr has underlined the value of this approach - which assesses potential Vital Life Force of the native for simply therapeutic purposes - highlighting the importance of these techniques in SUPPORTING the native at critical times during the life

Originally Posted by dr. farr

However, I do think that many use this kind of thing for indications of potential critical years rather than fatalistic death clock predicting

-I KNOW that most reputable jyotish use "longevity" evaluations for just that purpose (indications of critical years), and in astro-therapeutics these "red flag" indications, derived from such methods, are of value in preventive therapeutics.

For example - and completely different from the technique described in this thread - use of simple symbolic progression (1 year = 1 degree, first mentioned in the 12th century by Ibn Ezra in his "Beginning of Wisdom") can be quite valuable in pointing out potentially critical times: use of the progressed SN to various natal points is one of these valuable methods:

in the case of Whitney Houston, her progressed SN conjuncted her ascending degree (8 Pisces) at her 48th birthday (natal SN @ 20 Capricorn): astro-therapeutically, this would have been a red flag that her 48th year was a definite critical period,

and preventive measures (low stress, much care about drugs and medication, tonification for her heart -which her natal indicated as a potential weak area in her health, etc) would have been prescribed for her by a knowledgeable practitioner;

the fact that classical hyleg/alcohedron analysis (which I myself do not use) also indicated her 48th year as possibly anaretic (as one of 3 such possible critical years using the analysis given in this thread) would have decidedly underscored the critical-ness of the 48th year and the importance of undertaking natural (non-drug) preventive and corrective measures, during that time...

[sandstone]

rebel u quote "IMO, death predictions not taken seriously are relatively harmless compared to people taking wrong information about themselves or others (or even human nature) seriously."

what about death predictions taken seriously? how does that fit into your ideology if the death predictions are wrong, or they scare the **** out of someone enough to possibly help make it happen? death predictions still okay in your books?

as for folks taking wrong info seriously, it happens all the time.. it is called life.. maybe what is missing is that coming from a so called professional makes it more unsettling.. this happens in many areas, not just in astrology..i have found it generally pays to get at least 2 different professionals viewpoint... buyer beware..

a good example is in the medical profession where a surgeon makes more money suggesting surgery then advising against it.. grey areas exist in many professions... perhaps this is the reason why there are so many lawyers.. different societies are different too.. i have never forgotten the quote of 30 engineers in japan to 1 lawyer verses 30 lawyers in the usa to 1 engineer..

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by sandstone

rebel u quote "IMO, death predictions not taken seriously are relatively harmless compared to people taking wrong information about themselves or others (or even human nature) seriously."

what about death predictions taken seriously? how does that fit into your ideology if the death predictions are wrong, or they scare the **** out of someone enough to possibly help make it happen? death predictions still okay in your books?

Rebel Uranian, fwiw

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

IMO 'death prediction' is an over-exaggerated mis-nomer of an ancient technique, because

– when used as originally intended - the Hyleg and the Alcocoden are merely potential indicators of the basic Vital Life Force potential available to the native in the absence of any form of intervention.

A most important factor is that an inexact birth time means that the Hyleg and Alcocoden are uncertain and therefore renders any such assessment impossible

dr. farr has underlined the value of this approach - which assesses potential Vital Life Force of the native for simply therapeutic purposes - highlighting the importance of these techniques in SUPPORTING the native at critical times during the life

Rebel Uranian - the following statement from modern astrology could be taken seriously

Originally Posted by mysticskye

Looking to the 9th house, Uranus is the ruler, and Uranus is in a conjunction to Pluto in the 3rd/4th cusp, which would indicate her ideals and life philosophies would be somewhat strange or highly unusual is someway. This may be where the schizophrenia comes into the picture.

She may not have a clear understanding of right/wrong issues because of mental illness in her family.

Here's some timely advice from another poster on that same thread who responded to the above comment

Originally Posted by QuaternityEagle

We should all be really careful at least I would think when it comes to the power astrology has, especially since we all believe/practice it to a greater or lesser extent. At the same time, its a point of education, so why not use it? It can open our awareness...

I hope the OP does not use anything which is written here to declare openly her friend as something... but maybe it will help her understand her friend better? A very sticky situation.... i guess the question is, who are we to judge?

[sandstone]

one needs to make a distinction between good astrology and bad...instead trying to suggest modern ***** which is how i read your comments here jup asc is ignoring a consideration of the astrologer who is doing the talking.. put an oboe in a novice's hands and it won't be the same as it would in a pros... it has nothing to do with the oboe, and everything to do with who is playing it.. modern or trad is the oboe in this example.. this stupid division is really counter productive too as i see it, and yet it is always being dragged into the conversation like a disease, which is really what it is..

i find so much of your focus intent on negating modern astrology while trying to put trad up on a pedestal.. i think the consequences of your actions are the exact opposite fwiw..

[JUPITERASC]

fwiw – this is a learning forum and not everyone is aware of the distinction between Ancient, Traditional and Modern Astrology and so - IMO - to describe distinguishing between modern and traditional astrology as 'a disease' is to say the least not helpful

IMO for example, a distinction between “Old Masters” and “Modern Art” is NOT considered 'a disease' – neither is similar distinction between Ancient History and Modern History regarded as ' a disease'.

The concepts “Ancient and Modern” are commonly contrasted and it is helpful and not unusual to do that.

This is a learning forum and although Ancient astrology, Traditional Astrology, Modern Astrology as well as Post Modern Astrology are all well recognised categories within the astrological community, not all newcomers are aware that it is commonplace for astrologers to comment on these basic forms of astrology as distinguished from each other. To attempt to stifle those commonplace and widely discussed distinctions by describing the exercise as 'a disease' IMO discourages dialogue and is therefore IMO not helpful to those who are learning astrology

[Moog]

Originally Posted by sandstone

as for folks taking wrong info seriously, it happens all the time.. it is called life.. maybe what is missing is that coming from a so called professional makes it more unsettling.. this happens in many areas, not just in astrology..i have found it generally pays to get at least 2 different professionals viewpoint... buyer beware..

True. For me, life is a process of having bad information and gradually (hopefully) replacing it with better information.

I do worry about what I tell people when I look at their charts. I think it makes me think very carefully about what astrology is for, and also impels me to quest for the best information possible.

[sandstone]

jup asc - going from specific and poor examples on "modern astrology" in your previous post, to sweeping generalizations in your last post is an evasive tactic on your part..

moog - i think it is an ongoing process weeding out what is useful from what is not and i share the sentiments in your last sentence.

[JUPITERASC]

Nevertheless, fwiw – this is a learning forum and - IMO - to describe the entirely reasonable act of distinguishing between modern and traditional astrology as 'a disease' is to say the least unhelpful

[Rebel Uranian]

Originally Posted by sandstone

what about death predictions taken seriously? how does that fit into your ideology if the death predictions are wrong, or they scare the **** out of someone enough to possibly help make it happen? death predictions still okay in your books?

It depends on how the information is given and how it is received. Most of the time, no, because most of the time, it's going to be scary, fatalistic, and wrong. dr. farr's whole "critical period" thing is a good idea IMO if it's handled properly.

Originally Posted by sandstone

as for folks taking wrong info seriously, it happens all the time.. it is called life.. maybe what is missing is that coming from a so called professional makes it more unsettling.. this happens in many areas, not just in astrology..i have found it generally pays to get at least 2 different professionals viewpoint... buyer beware..

Good advice bro.

Originally Posted by Moog

True. For me, life is a process of having bad information and gradually (hopefully) replacing it with better information.

Life: Confabulating -> Lying -> Telling the truth

[serafin5]

Originally Posted by sandstone

rebel u quote "IMO, death predictions not taken seriously are relatively harmless compared to people taking wrong information about themselves or others (or even human nature) seriously."

what about death predictions taken seriously? how does that fit into your ideology if the death predictions are wrong, or they scare the **** out of someone enough to possibly help make it happen? death predictions still okay in your books?

as for folks taking wrong info seriously, it happens all the time.. it is called life.. maybe what is missing is that coming from a so called professional makes it more unsettling.. this happens in many areas, not just in astrology..i have found it generally pays to get at least 2 different professionals viewpoint... buyer beware..

a good example is in the medical profession where a surgeon makes more money suggesting surgery then advising against it.. grey areas exist in many professions... perhaps this is the reason why there are so many lawyers.. different societies are different too.. i have never forgotten the quote of 30 engineers in japan to 1 lawyer verses 30 lawyers in the usa to 1 engineer..

I love this post because it is so true....

Rebel - Please dont get discouraged with astrology and/or AW and leave; we need your voice here. I feel that you are more intelligent than most adults I've known, including myself, and with your sharp mind and intellect you can help keep us on a more 'logical' path other than an emotional one like you say the 'new agers' do. Sometimes I have to admit I have to reread your posts because they are that over my head at times and I am not (usually) a stupid woman! Opinions are like butt*****; everybody has one as the saying goes. The awesome thing about astrology is that if we try, really try to learn our stuff, we can affect people's lives in such a positive way! There is an awesome responsibility in what we do too; not unlike a doctor, it's inherent when charts are being interpreted.

Anyway, I know you know all of this. And I hesitate to post because I know how intelligent you are and I dont mean to insult that intelligence or give you meaningless platitudes. You've gotton a lot of sh** for being young among other things but truly it's exciting to me to watch as you grow into the woman and astrologer I know you will be. I really hope you dont leave this forum!

Sincerely,
Serafin5


PS: Rebel: I clicked on the "subconscious cold reading, etc...." and I really loved reading this I understand more what you are saying. I wanted to tell you that the site "The Nizkor Project" is really cool and informative; as time allows I will be studying the index there. Thanks! (how did you find this site? so awesome!) Serafin5

[Rayek]

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

You're welcome. Astrology in its current state is useless to me, and right now I'm giving up on it but possibly picking it back up later.

You sound like me. All of it... perhaps for different reasons, and you were able to voice them clearer than I can, but the frustration is the same.

A lot of the issues could be fixed if more time was put into studying backwards engineering. The blanket statements, the cold/warm readings, they would be null and void if someone could put together a reliable way to backwards engineer information that people say into the date/time of birth. It would weed out what is real and what is simply describing the human condition.

[Rebel Uranian]

Originally Posted by Rayek

You sound like me. All of it... perhaps for different reasons, and you were able to voice them clearer than I can, but the frustration is the same.

A lot of the issues could be fixed if more time was put into studying backwards engineering. The blanket statements, the cold/warm readings, they would be null and void if someone could put together a reliable way to backwards engineer information that people say into the date/time of birth. It would weed out what is real and what is simply describing the human condition.

Exactly. I've had a lot of bad conversations. Here is a non-verbatim example:

Someone: People who are Neptunian don't know who they are. Neptune will always dissolve their identity. Everyone around them has a different view of them than they do.
Me: That's OK. Not everyone has the same view of a person anyways. That doesn't mean the person can never figure out who they are.
Someone: Did I hurt your feelings? It's OK, we all have our difficulties.

If I weren't so hypersensitive and didn't occasionally get my feelings bruised to the point of obscuring my logic (as much as I try to hide it and previously denied it) I'd have much better arguments against all the nonsensical negativity or worship surrounding certain planets, and I'm working on it.

But yes, your backwards engineering thing is exactly what I want to see happening. Honestly, I've tried this a little and I don't see any patterns to my eye in the charts I've read, but imagine if we had resources and technology...

Also, @ earlier posts - I never tried to say that trad is better. I guess this is similar to a previous bias I had where I was into classical music and a snob against pop music, but then went right back to listening to it afterwards. Think about modern as pop music and trad as classical for a while for a good analogy. Now, some modern astrology is pretty complicated. That's where the analogy breaks down. But then I guess some so-called "pop music" is pretty complicated to?