Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldstar
As a request, could I still get the sabian symbols on the rest of the entitie's astrological placement as mention above? Just interested as to what the phases would say about them and they may serve as small clues to me. Thanks.
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Hey Goldstar...sure..here ya go...the link to the Sabians as defined and explained by Rudhyar. Remember, that if the entire text of the definition is too long winded..too much as to be cause for confusion...just read the 'Keynote' It is a succinct one sentence summation of the definition that Rudhyar also gives and gives explanation for. ...also read the 'Keyword[s] at the end of the definition...as that really boils it down so to speak!
http://mindfire.ca/The%20Sabian%20Sy...20Contents.htm
While it was Jones that did the logistics of obtaining the symbols, It is far better to utilize Dane Rudhyar's book for anyone that hasn't mastered a basic understanding of the entire system. Basic understanding; but it does take years to acquire that, as you will only come to that level of understanding, the Sabian Symbols, through doing innumerable natal charts and observations of transits, both as to the mundane and natal...although, I admit, there are those that
do learn very quickly or, some could, even,
immediately get it...
If you are one of those people...my hat is off to ya!
Rudhyar had studied symbology [or symbolism if you prefer] from the type most commonly recognized and of universal consensus, to the types most occult and esoteric. Jones not only gave Rudhyar permission to publish a book on what Rudhyar saw in the 360 symbols but also gave Rudhyar permission to alter any of them that Dane believed needed to so be altered ['Fine tuned' I like to think of it as...I mean, Rudhyar did see the 'whole enchilada' so to speak. He saw the procession...the unfoldment...the Divine purpose and logic in the procession of the development of spiritual attainment from the process of growth that is 359 'steps' from the first degree to the last...as like that of a 'Mandala'...so Rudhyar could see when one of the symbols looked like it was a bit out of place and leaning askew, improperly attired, if you will. And I say, in my opinion,
Rudhyar was the one destined to be the person that prepared them to be presented to the world, for the world to understand them, in His book which He took well over 40 years to write, apparently, as I would assume, just like a 'Great Artist'...like a Michael Angelo or a Da Vinci, would take so long a time on a project, so special, of such concern as to be if it were an assignment from God, Godself ...and, Rudhyar did it, and and did a darn fine job too, IMHO...of course.
[
If you ever read the entire book and all it's symbols you'll come across a couple of passages in he main text, and in a couple of the degree symbols definitions, written in such a way as to infer {admit?} that He would've liked to have had some more time to work on a couple/few things..a couple of the symbols did seem to slightly elude him..and he admits that he may of eventually had some major epiphany to those...{I believe that the symbol and His definition for Libra 15* might be one of these, but I would almost definitely say that Libra 2* is.}...but He knew He was at that age where-in you could drop dead anytime ...and the Sabian Symbols he had 'fine tuned' in imagery, his definitions, and all the 'Keynotes' and 'Keyword{s}' that He spent so many years in effort, worked so hard on, along with the knowledge, insight and understanding that it would provide...that He knew would catch on eventually, immediately for a few people, had to be published before He died...as I'm sure He wanted to see for himself that it was indeed published, and unaltered, as just the way he wrote it.]
Jones was considered a reputable authority on Astrology in the first half of the 20th century and was one of the top ten [possibly top five] biggest names of American Astrology at the time...now, He's pretty much forgotten and many 'theorys' that he more or less developed are now even ridiculed.
His guide to Horoscope Interpretation, first published in 1941, is a book of almost 200 pages...I20 of those pages are about recognizing and organizing 'Planetary Patterns"...what 's wrong with that?, some members will say...as I do it all the time expounding upon 'Matrices' complete and incomplete found on natal charts. Well, I talk about those known, recognized and identifiable polygons [
and the 'Opposition aspect'] the Trines, Squares, Grand Trines, Grand Crosses, Petagrams, Grand Sextiles [Star of David] etc...I've worked with them up to 14 sided, or 14 angled if you prefer, and that is a Tetrakaideca or also known as a Tetradecagon, as it is so rarely utilized that, apparently, they haven't got around to, or had any demand, as to decide which name is to be permanent as of yet.] in Astrology and have recently made a great breakthrough in understanding as to where I can see, in my 'minds eye', just what such a matrix [polygon] implies to be, as to it's orientation of 'Effect'...for those matrices/polygons from 14 to 24 sides/angles].
I've demonstrated in my own natal chart, in other peoples natal charts, the charts of famous historical personages, what matrix or matrices that are in that natal chart [if any...as some folks are born with out any] how it accounts for some manifestations of talent or ability...or how some were stimulated most actively [or 'activated, as I sometimes say...] by transit or progression, in that persons life, and note the date is also of historical importance as to the person.
[There are many that believe that the 'Star of David matrix must be in the natal chart of the Messiah...in fact that's what I first set out to do in 2001. That was, to look to see if, in fact, there was any such 'matrix' in the charts possible for a 15 to 20 year window I figured that the true birth date had to be within.] The matrices are a very important thing to be alert for when analyzing a natal chart.
Jones' "Planetary Patterns" have nothing to do with polygons either precise, allowable by an acceptable orb of influence or otherwise...except by coincidence because it also happened to be a part of one of His 'patterns'. He looks for just groupings only, en masse, and identifies eight of these groupings as such forms as, ''Bowl types'', ''Splash types'', ''Bucket types'', ''Locomotive types'', and...etc. It's sort of like looking at a shot guns' hit on its' target...at the pattern that the individual shot made on the target...and then saying it either looks like a 'See-Saw' or a 'Bucket with a handle', or...almost like something a juvenile would concoct and say, just to impress one or more of his peers, on a subject that kid knows little, or otherwise nothing at all, about. [
Hey, as the adage goes..."If you can't dazzle them with brilliance...baffle them with with B.S.] I mean, most of us are amazed [some are even skeptical] that Jones actually believed in this [IMHO] B.S. himself.[it actually does have, a little bit of, merit astrologically, but is of such a minor importance, and so little potency of affect, that it's not even worth the expense of my breath to have to explain it..so,
we figure it was just to impress ...although, if Jones did actually believe in that nonsense ...then I find it to be amazing that he could actually put such an endeavor as of that, the objective of re-obtaining the Sabian Symbols, together on his own...]
[ps. upon re-reading this for spell check and such. I thought about analyzing a round of buckshot on it's target and then I realized it would be a heck of a lot like reading 'Tea Leaves'...maybe that's what Jones thought that he had achieved...A way to read the distribution of all the 'stellar bodies and such, on a birth chart, just as if they were 'Tea leaves". That does sound like something He would conclude to ...and, to me, He's starting to sound, more and more, like a 'Half -wit' that 'Lucked Out"...a lot of the time...but, I'm not about to read anymore of His books to determine anything as to how the rest of His astrological beliefs, theories [or B.S. 'Raps' } might be as totally fouled up or even worse...if that were possible....why bother? What He was correct about is from prior knowledge that I've already recognized as such, and my idea of amusement isn't that twisted...anyways, not as of yet.]
That system, of identifying and interpreting types of patterns, that Edmond developed and championed is considered a joke nowadays by, most all, accomplished Astrologers...[especially the 'Trads'...]
Considering that Jones had use of the clairvoyant, Elsie, for only that one day and had her obtain, through her 'gift', all of the 360 degrees of the Zodiac, in a couple of sessions of about four hours time maximum each, it had to have been a rather hurried, and hectic bit of an, endeavor for both of them, I do imagine, and all the more so for Marc Edmond Jones. He had to manage the 360 'flash' cards, he had made for the occasion, write what Elsie had just said on the appropriate 4 x 12 'file card, of the 360, that was for that particular degree of the Zodiac, keep the flow going and on schedule, try to maintain the integrity of a conducive atmosphere and hopefully be free from, distractions and, curious pedestrians walking in the park that may, have been so rude as to, interrupt...and I figure that they
were most likely interrupted, at least once if not, a few times. [I can't quite recall why this was done in a parked car in a public park...I seem to remember that it had something to do with Elsies slight uncertainty of Mr. Jones sincerity, as to whom he was and what His intentions actually were, and a very visible Public place was decided upon, as her escort needed to be at a distance so as not to distract them...but also needed to be able to be in full observation of Marc and the vehicle at all times...[and Elsies legal guardian, a distant relative I seem to recall, was quite a selfish and cruel person that only took Elsie as his ward at her very young age at the time, upon the death of her sole remaining parent, as she was worth a good deal of 'Welfare money' [State assistance] of which this rascal took full advantage of...even as to such a length as to shoot off a pistol right next to her ear, one day, so as to make her partially deaf.!!! Can you believe that?...what a schmo!]
I very much doubt that the actual verbatim statement was always obtained and recorded in that endeavor as Jones didn't bring a stenographer, from what I know. As anyone that has ever had to produce a written account...[ie. a journal,report, log]...of a significant event as it occurred, [No two reporters, that were "Eye Witnesses", any event of major noteworthy status, have ever written identical descriptions of what they saw.] or any Soldier who ever performed the duty of that of a forward observer, as to how he related to his compadre, who was assigned to writing a record/log of his observations {as an 'Observer' must maintain a constant vigil and will usually have another soldier along as a 'scribe' } will likely tell you as how it is an abbreviated style of writing that was employed, as that is how it usually is done...something like 'Short Hand' [or might, in fact, have been 'Short Hand'] ..as He can take the time to refine the syntax, grammer, spelling, etc., later at his leisure. [and, this has caused me to reflect and I now wonder if anyone under 40 years old knows of, about, or remembers hearing about, 'Short Hand'...as I believe it is not taught anymore and, possibly, no longer even used by those that know how to write it. [My mom could write it...she took courses in it and did work for a newspaper for a few years in the early 1970s]
So, basically what I'm saying is stick with Rudhyars set for now...a few years maybe...you have to be able '
to see' the actual 'precept, [Cosmic Law] ' that the Sabian Symbols is an 'non-verbal' representation of. As words don't cross territorial boundries...What does the word 'Dangerous' mean to someone that speaks one of the 'Tallic' languages or is a member of the tribe of Northwest Native Americans, the Kwakwaka'wakw, that speak [or used to]
a most odd language that sounds to an outsider as a series of 'clicks, clacks and gutteral noises?' ...Well it doesn't mean anything. But there are symbols that are universally recognized by all subconsciouses, and there are those symbols that are known consciously to all members of certain cultures.
These symbols are the 'Cosmic Precepts' that have been there around us in the Cosmic grid work since creation. What Elsie saw was what her subconscious translated it for her so as she could understand it within her cultural consciousness.
It was known then, to some that studied the occult and esoteric sources, of knowledge pertaining to the ancient cultures/civilizations of the lands between the Black Sea, the Caspian Sea, and the Persian Gulf, [too many for me to note or list here..most of you all know what cultures I'm talking about...] that these 360 symbols were in the possession of one or more of those civilizations/peoples and that they were most profoundly veracious.
Take, for example, the 3rd degree of Gemini. Elsie saw it as ..or Jones decided that she was relating that she saw something akin to..."Santa Claus filling stockings furtively."
Cool symbol, huh? I think so, anyways... I've checked this degree out to a number of natal charts I've seen it pop up in as one of the Astrological Parts, Chart Axis point, or Planet/Sun/Moon. It, basically, means that whomever has that symbol in their chart has earned such karmic merit as to be granted whatever He or She might wish for as fast as the 'Creator/Cosmos is able to provide it. [..and, we are talking of those things that one truly needs ,..not necessarily merely desires...This ain't the Club Med down here.] And Santa Claus filling stockings as fast as He can does illustrate just that...this ones karma is so 'shining' ...that this person is at the top of the 'Good Boy or Girl List' ... deserving of of Santas' full attention and effort to fulfill that 'wish' [need].
But, who was Santa Claus to an Ancient Sumerian, Mesopotamian, Babylonian, Parthian, or to, even one of the more historically recent, Mazdakians?
He was nobody they'd recognize...and the 'filling stockings' probably had no meaning to them either..or the wrong message if it did mean anything, most likely.
So what symbol did any of them have for this degree of the Zodiac...?
We don't know...but it must of been known along with the other 359 to the #3 Magi that knew what the "Star" in the first degree of Libra meant [or whichever degree it was in, if you don't agree with me that it was in the 1st degree of Libra...as THAT WAS THE SIGN!!!. The SYMBOLISM of one is born whom is of perfect form ..or will attain that form...however it actually went.
I seen many indications from those that are of much study and knowledge of Kabbalistic origin and Dane Rudhyar inferred a couple of times in books he wrote [that I've read] that say the Hebrews know and believe that there must be a "Magen David" matrix in the natal chart of the Messiah. The consonantal MGN DVD by Kabbalistic translation means "Shield of David"...but it also means "Horoscope of David".
It's either that King David had this in His natal chart and the Messiah, whom must show blood lineage to King David [must be of the ben Davids as was Jesus/Yeshua...by most all accounts and acknowledgments] and nothing more is implied than that. Or that King David had it and the Messiah must have it too...or it is just that the Messiah must have it in the natal chart.
You won't get this info from any Rabbi, or lay Jew privy to such info, for that matter, as this is guarded knowledge...not for dissemination to Goyim [non Jews].
I originally intended to search a Ten to twenty year window for Magen Davids to see if in fact there could be cause to give objection to the Jews for not accepting Him as the Messiah as so many Christians claim did happen.
I figure allowing the Moon, Sun, Asc. and the Nodes as qualifiers would surely produce not one but a few solid undeniable Magen Davids during that time. I have seen no less tha 6 in Natal charts I've done for people in the last 12 years...oddly Rudhyar noted in his book on Astrological Aspects that He co-authored with his wife Lael, late in his life...around Eighty years old at the time...that He had only two such natal charts in his files for the some 40-50 years He had been doing Astrology.
But, I had that one date given by Edgar Cayce that I so wanted to check out as I had this 'Hunch' about Pluto conj. the asc. in a natal would naturally bestow the greatest proclivities...raw abilities to do the kind of miracles attested to that Yeshua/Jesus did.
...and when I saw that the Chart axis was exactly as Rudhyar predicted we'd find if the birth was ever figured out...that's with the two degrees of Libra 1* & Aries 1* on the Horizontal axis and Capricorn1* & Cancer 1* on the vertical axis...and when I saw that Pluto was conj. the Asc. and Libra 1* athat day when it rose in the East...I knew that it was a Star in Libra 1* that the Magi knew was the sign. [as to how PLuto can reflect any visible light much less a 'Star' like light is beyond me...I believe there are two Planets beyond Pluto and that the three all conjunct there every 26,640 years..give or take a couple of hundred years...and even that would be highly questionable as to a 'Star' if indeed that there are two more planets that do conjunct there.]
...but, the point is...In Rabbi Dobins book the Magen David Matrix is shown
[I'm attaching a photograph of the page and image...I apologize for the little bits of red ink on the image as I was pondering it one night and absentmindedly kept tapping it with a felt pen while in thought.] in an illustration with the Sun, Moon , Mercury, Venus, Mars and Jupiter each on one of the six points of the matrix...notice that the Rabbi has Venus opposite the Sun which is an Astrological impossibility. It's been pointed out that the Rabbi did make some glaring errors as to Astrologcal statements in his book...a number of predictions for the future transits of the trans-Saturnian planets that are off by years from when he said the transits would happen. Rest assured, as all others have noted, it doesn't diminish the subject mater information..that of Kabbalistic understanding of Astrology..just that the Rabbi didn't have an Ephemeris for the late 20th-early 21st century...Still, it seems that an obvious and glaring error of Venus opposite the Sun would have been noticed...unless the Magen David anticipated is one of a precise construct of which the info is 'Confidential'...and the Rabbi mixed up the arrangement for that reason...so as to mis-lead...confuse.
The other thing I wish to point out is the square in the middle of the Illustration with the glyph of Saturn within it. This is most curious and, I so wanted to meet the Rabbi and get to ask him about this...if he would confide...but as I've noted in my book and a few threads that when i did finally track him down and contacted Him he was in his late 70s or early 80s and had one of those...I'm old and my mind and memory are going...some days I can't even remember who I am...and today you caught me at my best...kind of debilitating ailments that the elderly get. So, I never got the chance.....but!!!!!. Saturn in a square!...within the Magen David matrix.
Enlarge that 'Square' with Saturns' glyph in it...while keeping it in the exact same orientation and you'll get a chart with a Magen David matrix with the Sun, Moon and the aforesaid planets, Merc. to Jupiter. And you'll get a Grand Cross matrix with Saturn at one of the points and none of the Magen David matrix points /none of the Planets involved...so what is Saturn involved in a Grand Cross with?...How about Uranus, Neptune and Pluto?!?!
I've said it before, many times..and I'm sure that I will say it many times more until I die...that the trans-Saturnian planets
WERE KNOWN to the ancient civilizations...they had to be...Civilizations more advanced that we presently are...that knew that Astrology was a science because they had all the knowledge and uncorrupted knowledge...and in fact recognized Astrology as the Mother of All Sciences...[as Rudhyar himself declared it would someday 'Again' be so recognized, as that, as it had been in the beginning...]
Trust me Goldstar...stick with Rudhyars Book ...he altered a few slightly..a couple greatly...Jones didn't object...[as a matter of fact I read that he not only gave Dane his permission but also His Blessing to do so...!]
These last, almost 30, years that I've been involved with Astrology I never met one person that used Jones book on the symbols or had anything to do with Jones' Astrological writings for that matter either...and most assuredly not the 'Sabian Assembly' [Rudhyar makes a statement in his book on the Symbols most explicitly and in such terse a manner as to imply he abhorred being though of as or assumed that he was, associated with it in the least way...not to mention being an actual member or one that utilizes any of those techniques, exclusive knowledge...etc..and He an Jones were friends..sort of...so what does that tell you about Mark Edmond Jones.
Great Guy, that Mr. Jones...we'll put up a golden statue of Him someday in the middle of New Atalantis...when all the world is at peace and the Astrological knowledge re-obtained has helped rescue humanity and given cause for alliance and understanding...on it will be a plaque, that reads:"
MARC EDMOND JONES
October 1 1888 - March 5, 1980.
He Re-Obtained the Knowledge of the Cosmic Precepts He Christened the 'Sabian Symbols' .
.
.but, that's about all he'll be remembered for...
Remember ...the only book on Astrology that was voted as one of the 100 most important books of the 20th Century by the New York Times [ or it may have been the London Times...I can't recall right this second] is Dane Rudhayr's, "the Astrology of Personality"...and, brother...that just 'Sticks in the Craw' of most the 'Trad' astrologers..especially those that wrote astrology books too. Read how Zoeller attacks Rudhyar...Zoellers book on the Parts is pretty much just copied verbatim from medieval texts of Bonatti and others...and what he added that he speculated about or proposed to be additional knowledge that he figured out is dead wrong...as to everything I ran across in the 70% of the book I did read.
Rudhyar has the,
sometimes a, sad position of being a visionary genius, way ahead of His time. His own chart showed his Sabian Symbology to be that of a 'Seed Man'...a teacher with the pure, un-corrupted, seeds of knowledge preserved from the ancient times until they were ready to be planted among the furrows of humanity again...
The Illustration of the Magen David matrix, with planetary arrangements, from Rabbi Dobins book, "Kabbalistic Astrology".
Linear Mode
