Why do signs have an element?

[NorthNodePisces]

As above, so below

Signs are cardinal, fixed, mutable due to changes within a season.

The Sun for the beginning of the season as a symbol for the cardinal below.

The Sun in the middle of the season as a symbol for the fixed below.

The Sun at the end of a season as a symbol for the mutable below.

So what's above that symbolizes the earth/water/air/fire for us below?

[waybread]

Well, as Tevye the Milkman put it, in Fiddler on the Roof: "It's a tradition!"

Astrologers have assigned elements to signs for a very long time. Some of it makes sense when you think of their nature.

Fire signs: think solar. Aries=spring equinox. Leo=heat of summer. Sag because it is in their triplicity.

Earth signs: Taurus the cow/bull, think agricultural. Capricorn the goat, Virgo is involved with health and hence bodies, which are material.

Water signs: Cancer the crab, Pisces the fish. Scorpio because it is in their triplicity.

Air signs: Aquarius is actually more associated with rain, an atmospheric phenomenon. Those are actually meteors pouring out of his vase. Gemini because communication is a mental function, and air was mental to the ancients. Libra because it is in their trine relationship.

[astrologer50]

It's bit like asking why does a book have a cover -- it just does. It simplifies matters and explains how people function - at a glance. Plus you can easily see if there is a missing element or modality, which is important.

[byjove]

I'll say right at the start that I'm running on less knowledge on this one, so anyone that knows more correct me straight away, but was it Aristotle that 'developed' the 4 element quadrent system in the West? That it was part of a divinity of the universe, the same as their choosing the number 12 being an ancient symbol of perfection; 12 months in the calendar year, 12 signs on the ecliptic chosen, 12 stars in the European Union flag which is why the don't add stars for new members, I bet there's a million 12s I'm not thinking of right now...

But, the Greeks weren't a closed nation - they learned from others, and we see time and time again that they learned from the Egyptians and Persians, with notable Greek astrologers having gone to those locations to live and learn their systems. So, it may or may not be a wholly Greek idea. This part is very philosophical, and you may need to flag members knowledgeable in ancient philosophies to follow that thread of thought, or if you find reliable sources online.

I agree with Waybread, I know that it's also directly connected to the seasons. However, as we have discussed in other threads, those seasons are from the ***northern hemisphere's*** perspective, and an arguement opens that that won't apply by nature below the equator. This is also why I'm intersted in other house systems. It's like an isolated nation living with no knowledge of other nations, in a very wet, agricultural region. You can be sure they will develop expert knowledge and systems of how to make their climate work for them. But to take those exact systems to drier regions just won't apply, it requires adaptation. It is the lack of knowledge which limits lifting and supplanting like that.

[Moog]

There's a little musing on elemental associations in traditional astrology in this radio show by Chris Brennan:

http://traditionalastrologyradio.com...nal-astrology/

[byjove]

Thanks for that Moog, I really wish we had a 'thanks' button for this kind of stuff, if only it weren't liable for abuse as is on other forums. (a cheering mechanism)

[Moog]

Originally Posted by byjove

Thanks for that Moog, I really wish we had a 'thanks' button for this kind of stuff, if only it weren't liable for abuse as is on other forums. (a cheering mechanism)

You're quite welcome. I enjoy enabling the transmission of interesting information to interested parties.

[NorthNodePisces]

Thanks everybody for the answers, but I'm still unsure. Obviously for roughly 30 days, we've been synchronistically infused with a certain element. Then suddenly, at the end of those 30 days, we change to another element. What did a planet leave to suddenly make it change elements? The fact that it left a sign(what's in a sign?) doesn't quite answer my question enough, what the elements govern down here, where they're positioned in the zodiac to form triplicities, the hot, cold, moist, dryness, or the descriptions of the elements, because I already know those. What I DON'T know is what's above that's element below? What is it leaving when it changes sign in order to change an element?

I drew a tarot card for this thread by the way, "The Hermit".

[waybread]

I am not sure I understand your question, but perhaps it can be answered by the microcosm/macrocosm view of astrology if you believe astrology works. It posits that humans and the cosmos are the same system, just on a different scale. To look at things inversely:

An element in a natal chart (to paraphrase Stephen Arroyo) indicates what is real to a person. If someone has a lot of air in her chart, ideas are very real to her. If someone has a lot of earth in his chart, practical and material things are very real to him. This process happens as people and planets partake of a kind of universal plan. The ancients developed the idea of order and balance, with equal and sequential numbers of signs attributed to their concept of elements and the four humours that corresponded to them.

For non-astrologers, I suggest the following.

Would an astronomer objectively look at the pie-sector of the sky we call the sign of Pisces and say, "Hmmmm...I see a lot of water up there?" No, of course not. Here the answer is really cultural-historical, suitable for non-believers. Anciently a bunch of constellations like Pisces the fish, Cetus the whale and others with water connotations were demarcated in a portion of the heavens which they called "the sea." Cancer the crab has had several meanings in ancient times, not all of them appropriate to a sea creature. Yet the ancient Egyptians depicted Cancer as a scarab beetle, their symbol of the renewal of like as symbolized by the sun's rising each morning from the mythical primordial waters. (Cf. Manilius, Astronomica 1st century AD, 2: 223- although he divided the elements differently among signs.) We find something comparable if we look at the heavens and note Aries the ram (or lamb) as the constellation "emerging" out of the celestial "sea" during the spring equinox of over 2000 years ago, with the increase in day length and solar insolation, suggesting the fire element. So we can go around a number of the constellations (the fore-runners of today's signs) and find ones where mythology and the signs' elements seemingly fit. Dorotheus (Carmen Astrologicum, 1st century AD) groups the signs as we do by "triplicities" but doesn't seem to associate these with the elements.

Interestingly Ptolemy (2nd century AD) who tried to systematize and rationalize the astrology of his day doesn't seem to mention elements for signs, although the belief in the four elements long pre-dated his day.

Vettius Valens, a contemporary of Ptolemy, ascribed elements to signs (Anthologies Book 1) and buried in his descriptions are the elements as we assign them today. But Valens also gives signs and portions of signs additional elements, named as well as on the type of weather occuring (in the Mediterranean region) as the sun passed through each sign.

In antiquity signs were often described as diurnal, noctural, male, female, crooked, straight, &c. I am not sure just when assigning elements to signs in a consistent, codifed manner came in, but probably after the 2nd century AD.

The Hermit is on a solo search for knowledge, with the light in his lantern being the Star of David. Whether you believe in God or not, even as a work of ancient folklore, we can see how Genesis starts of creation with the four elements, and moves on from there. We read in the OT, "For dust thou art and to dust thou shall return." (earth) Archaeological finds of sarcophagi from biblical times indicate that people believed that breath (air element) was the seat of the soul; and the air element includes thought and the speech through which God initiated the creation. Adam is a mix of clay (earth) and God's breath (air) He separated the sea (water) from dry land (earth.) God created the sun (fire) moon (moist element) and stars "for signs and for seasons" (astrology) which follow one another in an orderly fashion.

So the question would be whether you think there is anything to this, or whether explanations are merely antiquarian relics.

[NorthNodePisces]

Oh, I know astrology works. And the elements are self-evident when interacting with a person. And I never blame astrology, just the astrologers when getting a wrong interpretation. I probably didn't make myself clear enough. My question was, what is it that a planet is leaving that symbolizes an element which governs what's down here on earth, like our personalities, or with horary, or whichever.

Is it the shape of the angles, distances between signs, etc. inside the zodiac, using an imaginary circle? Do our unconscious archetypes have something that can be categorized by the factors of 12, and be made to fit in a pattern of the zodiac wheel? That the 4 elements that exist down here, perfectly fit a 12-sectored circle when categorized in a pattern? Does astrology metaphysically explain a circle, and the application of it with ourselves in the center? Does anybody understand me? Lol.

Thanks very much for that detailed response waybread.

[byjove]

I just came across a podcast where this thread topic is discussed. It includes rival philosophies: Valens vs. Aristotle vs. Stoics.

Go to iTunes. Search Chris Brennan and you'll find his Traditional Astrology podcast. The episode is called:

Recent News in Traditional Astrology - November 11 2011

[NorthNodePisces]

Moog already posted that but thanks.

[waybread]

Originally Posted by NorthNodePisces

Oh, I know astrology works. And I know the elements are self-evident when interacting with a person. And I never blame astrology, just the astrologers when getting a wrong interpretation. I probably didn't make myself clear enough. My question was, what is it that a planet is leaving that symbolizes an element which governs what's down here on earth, like our personalities, or with horary, or whichever.

Is it the shape of the angles, distances between signs, etc. inside the zodiac, using an imaginary circle? Do our unconscious archetypes have something that can be categorized by the factors of 12, and be made to fit in a pattern of the zodiac wheel? That the 4 elements that exist down here, perfectly fit a 12-sectored circle when categorized in a pattern? Does astrology metaphysically explain a circle, and the application of it with ourselves in the center? Does anybody understand me? Lol.

Thanks very much for that detailed response waybread.

Well, I think I'm back to explanation #1, which was the Tevye the Milkman thesis. Your questions are good, but I haven't seen astrologers conceptualize them in ways that generate a quick response. Beyond that, there is an "as above, so below" thesis (cf. microcosm-macrocosm), in which signs have certain qualities that the planets transfer to earth according to the planet's and house's nature, as well as according to aspects. A sign basically shows "how" or "in what manner" a planet operates.

As a planet leaves one sign and enters another, its operating style shifts according to the nature of the new sign.This influence can be conceptualized as either cause-and-effect or as simultaneously functioning parts of one integrated system.

12 is a magic number. 12 signs, 12 houses, 12 tribes of Israel, 12 disciples, 12 days of Christmas, 12 Olympian gods, 12 months. It very roughly corresponds to solar months, vs. the 13 lunar months of the calendar year.

[Rebel Uranian]

This is my idea. My ideas are usually right. I once got accused of being a psychopath "for being good at guessing." I'll number this to make it easier to read. It'll look a bit like a proof, but that's better than not being able to read it.

1. The sign of the rising sun is the sign of the spring equinox. The sign of the spring equinox is similar to sunrise in that heat and light are equal on both sides of time/space and the Sun is increasing.
2. The sign of the rising sun, having strong affinity with the Sun, which is hot and dry, is hot and dry (a Fire sign.)
3. Every sign has to have a different hot/cold quality (gender) from the ones next to it. (Or, as I like to say, the Zodiac is seated boy-girl-boy-girl.)
4. No sign can have two signs of the same element next to it.
5. All 4 elements must be covered
6. There are 12 signs because there are 4 seasons divided between the the equinoxes and solstices, each of which has a beginning, middle, and end.
7. The beginning, middle, and ends of the seasons are Cardinal, Fixed, and Mutable signs, respectively.
8. Each of the signs must be named after an arbitrary constellation because we get tired of saying "mutable hot and wet" when we can just say "Gemini" even though we know this will totally throw off future generations and cause the eventual disrepute of astrology.

Elements:
Fire - hot and dry
Earth - cold and dry
Air - hot and wet
Water - cold and wet


These are three possible patterns up to (discluding) 5.:
hot and dry, cold and dry, hot and wet, cold and wet, hot and dry, cold and dry, hot and wet, cold and wet, hot and dry, cold and dry, hot and wet, cold and wet

hot and dry, cold and wet, hot and dry, cold and wet, hot and dry, cold and wet, hot and dry, cold and wet, hot and dry, cold and wet, hot and dry, cold and wet

hot and dry, cold and wet, hot and wet, cold and dry, hot and dry, cold and wet, hot and wet, cold and dry, hot and dry, cold and wet, hot and wet, cold and dry

The second one obviously violates rule 5 so it can't be it for our real tropical Zodiac. [See bottom of the page for edits on this.]

Adding in the rules up to (discluding) 8., we get:

cardinal hot and dry, fixed cold and dry, mutable hot and wet, cardinal cold and wet, fixed hot and dry, mutable cold and dry, cardinal hot and wet, fixed cold and wet, mutable hot and dry, cardinal cold and dry, fixed hot and wet, mutable cold and wet

Including number 8, we get:

Aries - cardinal hot and dry,
Taurus - fixed cold and dry,
Gemini - mutable hot and wet,
Cancer - cardinal cold and wet,
Leo - fixed hot and dry,
Virgo - mutable cold and dry,
Libra - cardinal hot and wet,
Scorpio - fixed cold and wet,
Sagittarius - mutable hot and dry,
Capricorn - cardinal cold and dry,
Aquarius - fixed hot and wet,
Pisces - mutable cold and wet

...And that is why Aquarius is not a Water sign.

Edit: Obviously there was a mistake on here when I was putting the elements in order so I fixed that. It would be a little bit of a waste of time for me to do one with Taurus as a fixed Water sign and all the feminine signs inverted. I'd have to add another axiom in and basically re-post this to not have to do one with Taurus as a fixed Water sign.

[Moog]

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

8. Each of the signs must be named after an arbitrary constellation because we get tired of saying "mutable hot and wet" when we can just say "Gemini" even though we know this will totally throw off future generations and cause the eventual disrepute of astrology.

Hilarious

[NorthNodePisces]

@RebelUranian

Yes, I know all that, thank you. What I'm wondering is, since the Sun being at the beginning of the season symbolizes cardinal/moveable, what is it that the Sun is in during the beginning of that season that symbolizes an element such as, for example, water or cold and moist(or simply moist if we follow stoic's elements from what moog has shown us) for Cancer down here?

[Rebel Uranian]

My guess is that the rising sun sign (Aries) is the cardinal sign with the most affinity with the hot and dry Sun so it is hot and dry and you just follow the pattern from there but with another axiom added in ("the Earth is still a little more dry than wet after the hot and dry season") to make Taurus dry instead of wet.

[NorthNodePisces]

Ah, that's what you meant. That's a good idea.

[waybread]

Sorry, NNP, but we're not mind-readers. It is hard to tell what is your astro-background from your posts.

Originally Posted by NorthNodePisces

@RebelUranian

Yes, I know all that, thank you. What I'm wondering is, since the Sun being at the beginning of the season symbolizes cardinal/moveable, what is it that the Sun is in during the beginning of that season that symbolizes an element such as, for example, water or cold and moist(or simply moist if we follow stoic's elements from what moog has shown us) for Cancer down here?

A 2nd century AD astrologer, Vettius Valens, tied in the signs-- and different parts of the signs-- to different weather patterns observable in the Mediterranean region. Using astrology for weather prediction was big in his day. I suspect that was one reason why astrologers grafted the much older idea of the 4 elements, and the qualities of temperature and moisture, onto astrology.

Of course, having a water sign like Cancer next to a hot dry sign like Leo did not quite compute, but this was explained with reference to water vapour.

Essentially the alternating of different qualities ascribed to the signs followed a symmetrical pattern, which appealed to the astrologers' sense of order.

[NorthNodePisces]

Originally Posted by waybread

Sorry, NNP, but we're not mind-readers. It is hard to tell what is your astro-background from your posts.

Yes I know that, I'm sorry. But my question is such that my astro-background knowledge on the basics isn't relevant. Because, having everybody explain what they did, didn't answer the original question, except for RebelUranian sort of.

Think about what everybody has said here in relation to the question. Everybody has been filling me in on what the elements govern, the description of the elements, but didn't answer my original question. They sort of did, but it was largely suspicions that it's related to the seasons. How does my astro-background tie in to the question, besides knowing what to ask and being ignorant of the answer itself?

Don't get me wrong, the answers everybody has posted here I appreciate, some I learned from.

[Anachiel]

Someone might be able to correct this if I am wrong but I believe it was Ptolemy that took the Greek system/philosophy of the four elements/humours and tied them to the signs of the zodiac...that would have been about 2AD...?

[waybread]

NNP, can you restate your original question then? (Maybe not repeat it, just word it differently?) I've suggested that the explanation is actually traditional and cultural, not rational-- except within the confines of ancient Greek belief.

Anachiel, I actually looked through my copy of Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, and didn't see the 4 elements attached to signs. I did find them with Ptolemy's contemporary, Valens; so the ideas were definitely around astrology by the 2nd century AD. We probably can translate Ptolemy's 4 qualities (hot, dry, moist, cold) into the elements, however. In traditional astrology, fire is hot and dry, for example. But I don't see where Ptolemy actually does this.

[NorthNodePisces]

Originally Posted by waybread

NNP, can you restate your original question then? (Maybe not repeat it, just word it differently?) I've suggested that the explanation is actually traditional and cultural, not rational-- except within the confines of ancient Greek belief.

Sure. I'll explain it this way. I once thought the reason Aries was Fire, Taurus was Earth, etc. was due to the atmosphere of the seasons. But then I realized that the seasons aren't the same for the northern and southern hemispheres. My suspicion held that it must have had something to do with the seasons, since it's from there where we get a sign's cardinal/fixed/mutable. But now I'm beginning to think maybe it's not due to the seasons that a sign gets it's elements, and am now wondering if the synchronistic symbolism for the elements down here are still up in the sky.

I understand that it's a tradition, but I don't equate it to the answer of my question, since I'm wondering what it is *physically* up there, astronomically, that governs the elements down here just as the planets governs certain things down here.

[Hekate]

Originally Posted by NorthNodePisces

As above, so below

Signs are cardinal, fixed, mutable due to when the seasons change.

The Sun for the beginning of the season as a symbol for the cardinal below.

The Sun in the middle of the season as a symbol for the fixed below.

The Sun at the end of a season as a symbol for the mutable below.

So what's above that symbolizes the earth/water/air/fire for us below?

Because of the temperament.

Fire is energy (heat), Air is astraction-not visible (spirit, mind), Earth is practical-touchable things (razionality) and Water has memory-the cicle of the water (emotion).

The Air strenght the Fire.
The Earth gives form to Water.

And, after all, we and the things in nature, are all made by this elements.

[Anachiel]

Originally Posted by waybread

Anachiel, I actually looked through my copy of Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, and didn't see the 4 elements attached to signs. I did find them with Ptolemy's contemporary, Valens; so the ideas were definitely around astrology by the 2nd century AD. We probably can translate Ptolemy's 4 qualities (hot, dry, moist, cold) into the elements, however. In traditional astrology, fire is hot and dry, for example. But I don't see where Ptolemy actually does this.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I think it is Book One about chapter four that this discussion begins about humoural associations, etc. Later there is some discussion, in later chapters of Book One, that he talks about weather, seasons, and all that sort of association hinting also to elements.

Now, since you jogged my memory, it was Manilius that actually talks about the elements but I don't think he actually linked them to signs.

Anyway, my point being the Greeks developed the groundwork for it through the humours, Ptolemy starts to link the humours to astrological factors. Other astrologers, like Manilius, actually did talk about elements but, with no significance astrologically. So, somewhere along the line these concepts gave rise to the sign-elements as we know them today. Now....if I could just remember who actually is credited for doing this...was it Firmicus?

Then again, maybe it wasn't just one person, it was many, over centuries, contributing to the concept.