Why don't I feel like a girl?

[fullmoonlibra]

I always thought you were a boy, a wise and middle aged guy.

[Rebel Uranian]

For the "middle aged" bit, curse you Saturn!

I'm going to put up my chart...

Edit: Pallas for me is 5* 45' Capricorn. I'm probably just a perfectly legit physical girl who's not very "feminine" regardless. I really don't think this asteroid junk means anything.

[R4VEN]

I'd suggest caution when ascribing a denial of femininity to Pallas Athene.

If you check out this link under `Pallas' (scroll down to just over half-way) and read it carefully, it states the following:
"Pallas Athena can also represent the denial of one's own gender in an effort to cope with situations that require the skills of the opposite gender in order to survive, as well as the struggle to rediscover and reconnect with essential qualities of one's own sex."

I would say that the OP is doing just this, but given her age, is not able to see that there is a bigger picture going on here, and that maybe she is in embroiled in some kind of crisis of survival, something she has been engaged in as a spillover from a past life - which I mentioned in an earlier post. The position of transiting Uranus provides the clue.

And as for her Pallas, it squares natal Saturn, so she is having some kind of karmic crisis - as a result of tr Uranus conj her Saturn and squaring Pallas Athene. This crisis has to be worked through to its inevitable solution - which is in her hands alone.

[JUPITERASC]

The most unusual, and also rarest gender abnormality recorded is a form of human protandry - individuals born anatomically female who then grow up to become male is leading to startling sex-changes on the island where little sister may become big brother

On a lush tropical island in a remote area of the Caribbean something, very peculiar is happening. The young girls in one village are turning into boys and a team of scientists sent to the island believes it could throw a new light on fundamental aspects of human nature and sexual identification. It has all been revealed in a fascinating documentary shown recently on BBC television, called The Fight to be Male.

The Caribbean phenomenon has been happening for the past 50 years. In that time 37 village girls have changed into boys around the age of 13. The cause has been traced back to one woman seven generations ago who passed on genetic abnormality to her descendants. The story of the Batista family is typical of the village. Four out of the ten children in the Batista family have changed from girls into boys. The eldest, Mario, now 29 and married with children, began life as a girl named Antonia. The next daughter Milady. remains a girl. Then came Chichi, now 19, a normal male who started out as a girl called Isobel. Then there is Venecia, a normal girl. And now Virgilio, who is 12 and in the process of changing from a female to a male. The Batistas do not regard themselves or their affected children as freaks. After all, 22 other families have experienced the same sex transformation over the years. The primitive lifestyle of the village contributes greatly to the relaxed and passive acceptance of “God’s will.” The people of the island are a mixture of Negroid and Creole stock - well-built handsome men and tall, strapping girls able to share the work load of cutting sugar cane, the island’s staple crop. The Caribbean climate makes life both easy and lazy. So some of the girls turn into boys? Who cares? As long as they are happy. Virgilio’s brothers immediately found girlfriends when they turned into boys. Mario, the eldest, is the father of two children now, living in one of the bigger towns. “We always brought up our girls as girls” Mr Batista says. “Because that’s what we always thought they were.”

“And some of our girls stayed girls,” adds Mrs Batista, pointing to two of her grown-up daughters who remained girls and are now married with babies of their own. None of the Batista men who were girls appears to show any sign of embarrassment about the change. Even Virgilio, still in the process, did not mind removing his trousers to reveal his sexual parts. At birth Virgilio and his other sisters who became boys looked just like any other female baby. But the male anatomy was waiting inside his body and the external genitalia began to change at puberty. The testes dropped, as with all pubescent boys. But in the Caribbean children, the testes have to force their way from deep inside the child’s body. The clitoris grew into a normal, full-size male penis. In Virgilio’s case the process is still half-way and his external sexual organs appear curiously bisexual at present. But soon his tiny, infantile vagina will close up and he will be completely male. I am looking forward very much to being a man” she says through an interpreter. “I have a girlfriend already”. The phenomenon was first observed by a Spanish doctor who visited the village on holiday soon after it was connected by road to the rest of the island back in 1950. He wrote up his discovery in a Spanish medical journal where it remained unnoticed until 1972 when a team of doctors came cross the article and decided to investigate more closely. A BBC producer, Edward Galdwyn, was allowed to film the children recently. The team, headed by Dr Julienne Imperator-McGinley has pieced together a family tree of all the 23 affected families, tracing them back seven generations to one woman named Altagracia who married four times and produced a large number of children. All of them carried a mutant gene which shows up only when one of the members of the 23 families marries a cousin. The clue to it all is a chemical called dihydrotestosterone which Virgilio and the other affected children were unable to produce when they were tiny babies. Doctors can now reliably state that it is the chemical which creates the external anatomy of the male.

In the womb all babies have the beginnings of both male and female sex organs. How the child develops, is determined by the “program” laid down by the chromosomes within its cells. If the child has the female chromosome structure, she will develop ovaries, and the male organs will disintegrate, leaving the female organs to grow.But the Caribbean children had inherited a faulty gene which meant that the testes developed, but failed to produce the chemical which would remove the female parts. The body did not start producing the vital chemical until puberty, and then the children underwent the changes that should have occurred in the womb. What is particularly significant is that all of the Caribbean children were brought up as normal girls. They were taught the ordinary female village tasks: Washing the clothes, cooking, fetching the wood, and they played with dolls. But when they reached the age of l0 they suddenly felt the urge to be male. Young Virgilio explains: “I began to feel like a man in my muscles.” Virgilio’s father explains: “When they turn into men they change into different clothes. Soon everybody forgets. They find girlfriends very quickly.” Indeed, the affected children become more muscular and virile than their normal brothers. The easy adjustment of the Caribbean children led the scientists to challenge the usual view that our “male” or “female” behaviour is determined more by the way we are brought up than by our physiology. They suggest that there may be a part of the brain which is different in males and females and which governs much of what we think of as sex-role behaviour.

By SANDRA JOBS0N, in London From the Sydney “SUN-HERALD” JUNE 17 1979, p. 41

[Rageypoo]

Whoa, Rebel you're a girl? your online persona doesn't even seem girlish!

mars in libra (noooo) conj NN vs a saturn in Aries conj SN!? oh man oh man...

[Rebel Uranian]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

The easy adjustment of the Caribbean children led the scientists to challenge the usual view that our “male” or “female” behaviour is determined more by the way we are brought up than by our physiology. They suggest that there may be a part of the brain which is different in males and females and which governs much of what we think of as sex-role behaviour.

Wait, doesn't that contradict the anti-physiology idea from the last sentence?

Edit: @Rageypoo - I know. I'm a terrible girl. As I mentioned on another thread (not verbatim), I could go around wearing a pink dress and pigtails and flowery stuff and nail polish and someone would probably still mistake me for a dude when they weren't paying attention.

[Rageypoo]

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

Wait, doesn't that contradict the anti-physiology idea from the last sentence?

If you follow Egyptian philosophy, the Sacred Masculine and Sacred Feminine exist in all of us, yes one is more developed than others, but the goal is to embrace and embody both (or at least appreciate both and apply it in your life as much as possible), so the fact that you're a girl but don't feel it suggest you may be tapped into some of the Sacred Masculine energies, which should make you a rather balanced person.

Dunno how you don't feel like a girl with that cancer moon though!!

I'd look into the moon squaring the nodes, this is clearly a challenge meant to be addressed in this lifetime, this is also karmic and should point to the woman in your life (should be mother, with moon in cancer 7th) so it's good that you are aware of it! There's a reason for it and it seems to be focusing the "manliest" planets vs the most "feminine" with venus opposing moon, and mars opposing saturn.

With these planets making a grand square to mercury, it's not only important that you don't feel like a woman, but also have problems rationalizing it! Mercury can be Asexual, and in that, since you're being set to focus on these parts of your life, you'll need to address the moon AND mercury in order to overcome the issues or you could be locked in a pattern of not being able to express yourself. The good news is the energies are giving you all the elements to address this issue and fix your karma, it can be intense, and having a natal grand square/cross can drain you if you don't address the energies.

On an interesting note, you have the same sun/ac/mc as I do!

[twelthnight]

Rebel,

This is going to sound simplistic, but just look at how your moon is pretty much beat to a bloody pulp. I would guess that you have two or ten resentments towards your female role models in the family and find yourself instinctually disregarding that which belongs to the realm of femininity. You are very intelligent and you may find yourself feeling inadequate or disassociated from these areas...your sun is strengthened by all those elements that are clobbering your moon, so it is natural that you find ease of expression in the solar, logical arena. But that is not the end of the story. You will probably find that the ways you are able to integrate your lunar energies will balance your personality and bring some peace. You do not have to be a walking ovary or disown all things feminine. It's very possible to find a balance, and you will in time. I know how that feels having moon conjunct Saturn. Really alarming for me when I was growing up.

[Rebel Uranian]

I was really ticked when I saw the Moon in Cancer when I first started, to say the least. I thought there was a mistake and kept searching and researching until I eventually got the false notion that my Moon was in Gemini, which I thought fit perfectly. Unless my date of birth was wrong (which I'd consider possible in any case except this one since I was born ever so slightly after my dad's birthday) yes, I was born in Moon in Cancer.

How does a square with the Nodes do anything?

Edit: My brother peeked. I'm ******* on this site.

[Rageypoo]

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

I was really ticked when I saw the Moon in Cancer when I first started, to say the least. I thought there was a mistake and kept searching and researching until I eventually got the false notion that my Moon was in Gemini, which I thought fit perfectly. Unless my date of birth was wrong (which I'd consider possible in any case except this one since I was born ever so slightly after my dad's birthday) yes, I was born in Moon in Cancer.

How does a square with the Nodes do anything?

Edit: My brother peeked. I'm ******* on this site.

Squares to the nodes are a pain and a blessing in disguise. I have sun square the nodes, and what it does is energize them. It helps the native focus on their true Karmic path, helping to ensure success by giving the nodes power. The only DOWNSIDE to this is it completely halts you if you go outside of either your north node or south node, it's almost like a nun with a ruler just waiting for you to mess up so it can beat you back to the righteous path. Since your case is the moon I'm not quite sure if it still energizes, but it's a similar concept. The blessing is that you will always stay on the true path, and the planet squaring the nodes is a key ingredient to achievement, which I have similar nodes (4th and 10th) only for you it's NN in 10th and SN in 4th (my NN is 4th and sn 10th). You also need to pay CAREFUL attention to the ruler of the house for the themes (not so much the element, but sign), you'll encounter with the nodes when you have a personal planet squaring them, as it can over power even your chart ruler, and in this case, your capricorn ruler, Saturn, conj the SN, and is part of the mix being thrown in aries, and having the ruler of aries, Mars, conj the NN and thrown in Libra.


http://cafeastrology.com/articles/no...capricorn.html
http://www.skyviewzone.com/astrology...deinhouses.htm

The idea is with your nodes you need to develop your career, get a powerful position, be assertive and create an impression in your social life, and to leave behind issues with the 4th house of family and emotional conflicts. I've also seen once that the moon squaring the nodes will cause a repeat in behavior from a past life and the ego to be re-lived in this one in order to get the karma right, not sure if that's true or not, but it's interesting.

If we take what the moon means in astrology quite literally, and apply the square to the nodes, it could quite possibly mean that any effort to alter or change the behavior pattern you have been equipped with is actually CAUSING the problem with your karmic direction, and only once you address this will you surrender to your true karmic path. Since the moon does embody the essence of our personality, it's probably true that the very personality you're searching for is the source of all your problems, so once you surrender to your karmic path, you will change and become your true persona (which could be masculine, since saturn and mars is involved)

http://cafeastrology.com/moon.html

Hypothesis:

Perhaps you're not meant to be feminine in this lifetime, you need to have Masculine energies to drive your career, to be assertive, to use the air element to focus your mind (libra) to be more aloof and detached to the emotions, to talk your way through issues rather than take on the full weight of emotional energy, and assert yourself with the fire of (aries) by using using hard work (capricorn ac/chart ruler saturn conj SN) to develop the energies of a mars in libra, by focusing the body and "god of war" energy and reduce the feminine energies (mars conj NN/overshadowing libra's ruler, venus) all in effort of eliminating the current emotional problems (moon) to embrace your destiny.

If you haven't been focusing on building a strong and developed career path, now is the time to do so, and perhaps your confusion will be absolved

[sandstone]

hey rebel u - are you serious with the quote on your bro?

[Rebel Uranian]

@Rageypoo - Mercury is in a closer square to the Nodes than the Moon is. What is your interpretation of that? Also, do you actually use whole sign houses?

@sandstone - Yes. His Mars is in Scorpio (lucky) but regardless he is not known to be good at keeping secrets. I'm not sure this is that important of a secret, but I just like having secrets.

[Rageypoo]

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

@Rageypoo - Mercury is in a closer square to the Nodes than the Moon is. What is your interpretation of that? Also, do you actually use whole signs?

@sandstone - Yes. His Mars is in Scorpio (lucky) but regardless he is not known to be good at keeping secrets.

The difference is only one degree, I wouldn't be too concerned with Mercury being "more powerful" for the simple fact that every planet here has strong influence being within 6 degrees from one another, the only importance I'd put on Mercury is the fact that it is close to venus, venus rules libra, an Air sign, and since libra is part of the "nodes" ruler theme, an emphasis on the mind is critical, thus the square to nodes and opposition to moon.

Since the planets involved in the square serve as "distractions", it's quite possible that with mercury squaring, you're trying to rationalize rather than "do" which might be why mars is conj NN, and with moon squaring, you're persona you're trying to create or emotional issues you have wile in development (possible mother influence) is distracting you from again achieving your goals, and perhaps an authority figure or your own self-discipline is needed (saturn conj SN)

EDIT: I drew your chart on my own program, did you use whole signs for this chart, because the chart I cast is COMPLETELY different, and puts your NN and SN in 8th and 2nd, with moon in 6th, venus and mars in 12th, which would be an entirely different interp. Is that why you asked me if I did whole signs?

Adding chiron paints an interesting picture here as well, as your squares from 1st house and quincunx to saturn and SN paint an entirely different picture for me, suggesting this isn't a problem with mom, but father and authority as well.

[Rebel Uranian]

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

@Rageypoo - ... Also, do you actually use whole sign houses?

(atleast10characters)

[sandstone]

i like what 12th night said.. thanks for the update rebel u....

[Rebel Uranian]

@sandstone - Was that "thanks for the update" sarcastic? I doubt I'm ******* here. He probably doesn't know the pronunciation of "astrologer." It's not a common word.

I think I missed what 12th said. It was pretty awesome once I read it.

Originally Posted by twelthnight

Rebel,

This is going to sound simplistic, but just look at how your moon is pretty much beat to a bloody pulp. I would guess that you have two or ten resentments towards your female role models in the family and find yourself instinctually disregarding that which belongs to the realm of femininity. You are very intelligent and you may find yourself feeling inadequate or disassociated from these areas...your sun is strengthened by all those elements that are clobbering your moon, so it is natural that you find ease of expression in the solar, logical arena. But that is not the end of the story. You will probably find that the ways you are able to integrate your lunar energies will balance your personality and bring some peace. You do not have to be a walking ovary or disown all things feminine. It's very possible to find a balance, and you will in time. I know how that feels having moon conjunct Saturn. Really alarming for me when I was growing up.

I always wondered why I thought "being a girl" was an insult. The planets point to more concrete causes, so I will search for those causes. I think I have a bit of the balance that you mentioned right now. I'm wearing makeup and nail polish right now. It can actually be kind of fun depending on how you do it. I'm not sure if decoration is inherently feminine, but it's better than I did a while back.

[sandstone]

straight goods.. no sarcasm.............

[Rebel Uranian]

OK. He probably doesn't care at all :P Edit: But he still looked. And I'm sort of paranoid sometimes.

[sandstone]

okay - yer the sarcastic one then, lol...

[Rageypoo]

So is this chart you provided whole signs?

[Rebel Uranian]

Yes. Did you look?

[Rageypoo]

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

Yes. Did you look?

I don't use whole signs, my interp would be quite different using the chart I cast without it, as it moves your nodes 2 whole signs, and paints a quite different picture

[Choe]

When it comes to forums, it's easy to confuse someone's gender unless they give clear clues.
It would be interesting to open a thread where we would say how we imagined the members before we knew their gender or pictures.

[Mikha]

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

This goes here because I'm looking for answers on my chart. It does not belong in "General Chat" like the last version of the post got moved to.

This is probably one of the hardest to read posts that I've ever typed on here. Be warned and don't trust me to not make mistypes.

I've posted on a couple of other threads about this. I don't really think I feel how a girl is supposed to feel. The one time I've ever had a crush on a boy was just so I could see what it was like to have a crush on a boy. I honestly didn't think it was that exciting at all but I found the challenge of chasing him exciting. For some reason I'm pretty dead sure that when I grow up, I basically want to be the so-called father figure. I don't think that's normal either. I want to go out and be the breadwinner and work in the yard and fix stuff around the house. I hate cooking even though I do it sometimes so I can be independent because I couldn't depend on someone else for my life. Usually I hang out with boys because girls just feel like an alien race and they're sooo annoying and they let every emotion they have out and they don't know how to pick the head over the heart at all (with the exception of some nerdy girls I know who are a lot better but can be annoying for other reasons.) When I cry I pretend it's allergies and when I laugh I make it look like I'm coughing a lot of the time. I can't stand going and getting a haircut and I can't stand staying around the house either. The idea of having a baby is also really repulsive to me, not so much the physical aspects of it but just having to be all nurtury and warm and personal and all the **** (stop bleeping things that aren't curses ) I'm not good at or interested in. I can't stand going to get a haircut at whatever you call a haircut place. They always be really moody and chatty and I pretend to listen most of the time, with the exception being when I let them know that I'm not listening. I don't like having doors opened for me or stuff carried for me. I can do everything myself and then do stuff for other people, thank you very much. When my mom tried to buy me baby dolls, I picked one up, looked at it boredly, and then dropped it like the inanimate object it was. I did want to see how the crib was built. When I started going through puberty, I really didn't want to have boobs and I thought that not wearing a bra would get rid of them. (That might've been a bit much but it's the most relevant part of this post.) Obviously that didn't work. I also pretend to be a boy on some websites (especially if it's aimed at boys, but that's pretty normal to do from my observations) because I don't like being treated like a girl. Once, one of my teachers was like "guys are better in the fashion industry because they're more logical and businesslike." I replied with something like "I'm more logical and businesslike." I know that's definitely true because I generally don't play games if they don't involve business, strategy, or bluffing (I know this is OK for a girl too, it just goes against what I repeatedly hear is "feminine".)

Is any of this how a girl is supposed to think/feel?

[I'll probably edit this more later.]

[No attempt at astrological interpretation so moved to Read My Chart forum - Moderator]

[Mods, please stop moving my posts - RU]

hi,

I kind of know what you mean.I hate barbie dolls when i was younger i found it repulsive i don't even know why.I am not very keen in being a mother.There's something a bit unfair about it.I always thought it wasn't fair for the female sex to carry a baby and take care of everyone else basically their whole entire lives.And yet if we choose to think or act differently than we're not being a "woman" or worse "ungrateful".Maybe this is the problem with the world.Maybe being a girl isn't about the "traditional" female way of doing things.I don't cook well,i hate going shopping for clothes,i hate going to salons i find it "uncomfortable", everytime i hear all the women chatter around and gossip and poke me in different places observing me i just feel my stomach tighten and wish i was alone in my bed reading.You look around and every other girl has these serious stuck up,your beneath me look on their faces and makes you feel even more confused about yourself.I mean men don't seem that way don't they?Their either joking around or doing something physical instead of just standing there belittling everybody with gossip.So you find it easier to relate to them.

From one girl to another.This is not what it means to be a girl.
I'm not quite sure of what it means to be one.But definitly not this.

So don't worry hehe we'll figure it out ....
when the time is right

[kennedyrosewhith]

Originally Posted by R4VEN

I'd suggest caution when ascribing a denial of femininity to Pallas Athene.

If you check out this link under `Pallas' (scroll down to just over half-way) and read it carefully, it states the following:
"Pallas Athena can also represent the denial of one's own gender in an effort to cope with situations that require the skills of the opposite gender in order to survive, as well as the struggle to rediscover and reconnect with essential qualities of one's own sex."

I would say that the OP is doing just this, but given her age, is not able to see that there is a bigger picture going on here, and that maybe she is in embroiled in some kind of crisis of survival, something she has been engaged in as a spillover from a past life - which I mentioned in an earlier post. The position of transiting Uranus provides the clue.

And as for her Pallas, it squares natal Saturn, so she is having some kind of karmic crisis - as a result of tr Uranus conj her Saturn and squaring Pallas Athene. This crisis has to be worked through to its inevitable solution - which is in her hands alone.

All of this, plus even if Pallas were an indication of transgender identity? I'd consider Pallas in the first a prominent placement, but surely not everyone with Pallas in the first is transgender. Honestly i don't even believe that there is one transgender signature. There's no one signature for anything.

There's only really one place i've seen anyone say anything about Pallas and transgender and intersex conditions, and they had looked at what, 3 charts? Not very thorough. Maybe there is something to it, but logically it hasn't made sense to me yet (either the interpretation is too broad - everyone struggles with gender, transgender or not- or too narrow - with Pallas Athena being a woman, it becomes more of a female-to-male issue than both that and male-to-female), and the data just isn't readily available.

Perhaps there is something to the very real possibility (depending on how good my memory is) that Pallas and/or Pales are in a prominent position in all transgender/transsexual and intersex charts, but is that unusual? I haven't looked at all at where these asteroids are in the charts of people who aren't transgender, transsexual, and/or intersex. With just a small sample of 30ish charts (what i managed to find), it might not be that unusual.