(Synastry) Saturn hard aspects: karma and restriction

[Kenoshamaensa]

I wanted to start a more general thread about hard Saturn aspects in synastry in particular.

I'm generally interested in Saturn for a few reasons, not least that Saturn is rising in my own natal chart, conj. the Asc from 12, ruling in Aquarius and leading a Locomotive pattern. Mostly, I experience Saturn energy positively, although it occasionally causes me problems. But I tend to raise eyebrows at the characterization of Saturn as "that old devil."

That's why I'm rather interested in Saturn in synastry.

It seems that Saturn shows up in a lot of the significant relationships in my life, and not just romantic ones. My Saturn is sextile my son's Sun (spear point of a minor-grand trine, in fact). My Saturn was trine BOTH my mother's and father's (theirs opposite my Moon, not as nicely), as both were born VERY close together themselves. My Saturn is sextile the Venus-Moon conjunction of one close female friend, and forms trines to the Sun-N.Node and Jupiter of another friend, making a Grand Trine.

So when I look at synastry, even with friends and family members, I always look at Saturn (especially mine to them).

But what I've noticed -- additionally -- is that Saturn in HARD aspect is often a major player in my romantic relationships. I haven't had a ton of (long-standing) relationships where I knew the birthdata of the other partner, but for those I have, I've found Venus-Saturn and Sun-Saturn patterns in *square*, not ease.

A little karmic debt anyone? :-)

That said, the degree of Saturn's influence depends to some degree on ORBS ALLOWED. I bold that, as it's part of what I want to discuss.

I've seen a lot of discussion and debate on orbs. It seems like those who do synastry (and composite) regularly argue for tight orbs. I'm inclined to agree, although I'm aware, too, that might just be a way of avoiding Saturn's long shadow, ha. Yet if orbs get TOO big, everything aspects, and that's not useful. It feeds into the old argument that "astrology can justify anything" -- which I don't find to be the case (at least natally, or in synastry).

So, I want to talk a little about orbs for Saturn to personal planets/luminaries:

Sun/Moon/Asc to Saturn: I allow up to 4, maybe 5 for a conjunction, 3 for a sextile, 2 for a quincunx (which I consider more than a minor aspect, but still keep the orb small).

Personal planets (Merc/Venus/Mars) to Saturn: No more than 3, and sextile/quincunx reduced to 1/1.5.

Jupiter and outers to Saturn: 2 or less.

Agree or disagree?

Next ... the square versus the opposition versus the quincunx.

My usual thoughts on these (at least in natal) is that squares are friction which can be mastered to provide great energy, oppositions can cancel each other out (when one energy is engaged, the other is eclipsed, which is harder to learn to manage), then the quincunx which is a b*tch because it's CONSTANT realignment.

But in synastry, I'm less sure the opposition is as bad, or represents "cancel each other out." It can represent a Yin-Yang balance, as long as the planets aren't completely inimical. E.g. a Sun-Mars opposition would be more problematic than Venus-Jupiter, but less so that Mars-Saturn or Moon-Saturn. Not to mention that signs and houses have to be looked at. Sun in Libra (fall), Mars in Aries (rulership) might be more of an issue due to imbalance than Sun in Gemini (neutral), Mars in Sagittarius (neutral).

Thoughts?

Conjunctions I've always seen as a crapshoot ... depends on planets and signs (and houses), but I tend to see conjunctions as more potentially good than bad, unless they're a bad planetary mix, debilitated, or have a lot of stress aspects.

But this brings me back to the importance of Saturn in synastry. Basically, without some Saturn aspects in a synastric chart, I don't tend to give relationships much of a long-distance rating.

Far from the devil, Saturn is the bedrock or the glue. Even hard aspects.

In the synastry of younger couples, easy Saturn aspects are more important for success ... in part BECAUSE they're young. In the charts of older couples, I think they can handle the stress aspects ... "can" being operative. Sometimes they won't, but Saturn favors age (and experience).

So yes, even the dreaded Saturn-Venus square is "doable," although I'm a little more dubious of Saturn-Moon in square.

EVERYthing (I think) depends on the *natal* aspects (as well as sign and house of the planets in synastry).

The FIRST thing I want to look at is whether the "sensitive" planet (Venus, Moon, Mercury, etc.) receives a NATAL aspect from Saturn? Even a stress aspect in the natal chart helps because that partner is familiar with Saturnian energy already. Someone who has a square from a "Saturn" parson to his Moon, and nothing in his natal chart between Moon and Saturn? OW! Even with "good" supportive aspects, that's going to be (IME) a killer for a long-term relationship ... assuming it gets off the ground at all!

BUT say you have a Saturn-Sun square in synastry, but the Sun person has a quincunx from Saturn in the natal chart? Or better yet, a trine? That Saturn energy is familiar. HOW it manifests then in the relationship depends on other factors. Say the synastry chart also has sextiles-trines or conjunctions of Sun-Venus, Sun-Jupiter, and Venus-Mars ... (all wonderfully supportive)? Well, in that case, the Sun person might be able to handle Saturn's pessimism, and Saturn's negativity might be offset by more positive affectionate/romantic feelings for Sun. Saturn NEEDS Sun's optimism, even if sometimes inclined to critique or doubt it.

In that case, the synastry between the two might help the Sun native learn to manage the natal Sun-Saturn quincunx by adding an easing trine or sextile to the other person's Saturn, even if the Sun-Saturn square remains.

Trine/sextile Saturns is (IMO) a pretty darn good aspect in synastry! One of the best Saturn aspects of all.

Additionally, with these larger aspect patterns, I'll grant more orb, as I feel the planets already in aspect "link" the others. So if normally I don't look at orbs for Saturn to Saturn outside 3 degrees, if both aspect the Sun (a Light) in synastry and natal, I'll go up to the usual 6 for a sextile, and 8 for a trine. Much depends on the *synastric* orb. The tighter the synastric tie, the WIDER I'm willing to allow a "loose" (by association) link.

(Basically if the synastric square is inside 1 degree, then I'll go 6-8 for "loose" aspect pattern ties. But if the synastric square is 2.5-3 degrees [at the edge], I want the aspect pattern tie to be closer, so I'll only grant, say, a 4 for sextiles and a 5/6 for trines.)

And as always, the signs and houses of the planets MATTER. I'm just trying to keep it a little simple here. :-D

What it boils down to is that the NATAL aspects of the natives will impact (a lot!) how the energy of Saturn is felt in synastry, especially "stress" aspects. Additionally, I believe the AGE of the natives matter ESPECIALLY with Saturn.

A native with a strong Saturn in the natal chart can handle even harsh Saturn in synastry, as long as there are easing aspects. The older the native, the easier Saturn is managed.

A native with little Saturn in the natal chart, even an older native, is going to experience stress aspects from Saturn in synastry as Hard and Cold and Unforgiving.

But -- again -- synastric charts without significant Saturn aspects tend (IME) to indicate short term relationships. They may be important, and significant ... but I'd be MORE dubious of the longevity of a marriage between two people with no real Saturn interaction versus two with hard Saturn aspects in synastry.

And orb matters. I really think it does. The tighter the orb, the more Saturn is felt. Get much beyond 3 degrees and (unless Lights or the Asc), Saturn's effect is weakened. Obviously, this is not some rigid line. If you've got a Saturn-Venus square at 3 degrees, 4 minutes, I'm going to count it. If it's at 4 degrees, 45 minutes, I'm probably not.

Other observations?

[PlutonicAnna]

Originally Posted by Kenoshamaensa

the degree of Saturn's influence depends to some degree on ORBS ALLOWED.

For me, an orb must be within 3˚ for a square, opp, conjunction.
I don't work with quincunx.
If I do synastry, I only look at trines or sextiles to see if there is 'a way out' for the difficult aspects.
Like Sun square Saturn + Mercure trine Saturn = there is tension, but with some constructive conservations so they'll manage to cope (they have to talk).

However I know some one. His mars squares my Saturn and His Saturn squares my Mars. Both orbs are 3˚06, too big if I follow the max 3˚ orb. His midpoint between his Mars/Saturn is exact (no orb) opp my midpoint.
Within our connection I blame this tension as the reason why we can't get along, but can't stay away from each other.
There is definitely some karma going on, I have learned so much from him. Meeting him changed my life.
I think one should also look at the midpoints.

Liz Greene writes in her book that a Mars-square-Saturn-synastry can be violent and advices the owners to stay away form each other.
I am curious for other Mars-square-Saturn-synastry experiences!
Is it easy to stay away?

Originally Posted by Kenoshamaensa

Jupiter and outers to Saturn: 2 or less.

I only look at connection between personal planets and outers.
I don't give a connection between outer planetes much attention. It is more a generation-thing (but that's my opinion).

Originally Posted by Kenoshamaensa

Basically, without some Saturn aspects in a synastric chart, I don't tend to give relationships much of a long-distance rating.

Agree!

Originally Posted by Kenoshamaensa

Far from the devil, Saturn is the bedrock or the glue. Even hard aspects.

Agree!
Without Saturn our life would be boring.
It's pure gold, if you take your responsibilities.

Originally Posted by Kenoshamaensa

In the synastry of younger couples, easy Saturn aspects are more important for success ... in part BECAUSE they're young. In the charts of older couples, I think they can handle the stress aspects ... "can" being operative. Sometimes they won't, but Saturn favors age (and experience).

Relationships started at an 'older ages' are often more complicated. It is like the couple is finally ready to use the true potential of their chart (their own chart as the synastry chart as well).

[Kenoshamaensa]

Originally Posted by PlutonicAnna

For me, an orb must be within 3˚ for a square, opp, conjunction.
I don't work with quincunx.
If I do synastry, I only look at trines or sextiles to see if there is 'a way out' for the difficult aspects.
Like Sun square Saturn + Mercure trine Saturn = there is tension, but with some constructive conservations so they'll manage to cope (they have to talk).

I've started taking the quincunx seriously, especially if either or both of the natives have Yod patterns in their natals. And I've noticed a weird tendency to see pairs where both people have yods, AND the "point" planets of those yods interact with planets in the yod of the other partner. I have no stats to back that up, just a general awareness.

I know trines especially can be "lazy" aspects in synastry, and sextiles, but yes, as you say, they're really useful to look at as they figure into aspect patterns with hard aspects. I also pay special attention to them when they involve the Lights or Venus, since -- as you note -- they can offer a "way out" or lightening of the burden of harder aspects.

On their own, though, they rarely seem to "start" a relationship. They need the proverbial "kick in the pants" from some sort of hard aspect. But if they get it, sometimes they seem to indicate "love born from friendship." E.g., the classic, "Woke up one day and realized I was in love with you all along." But it seems like something ELSE has to kick-start it. A Venus-Mars trine is great, but it'll rarely drive a couple into bed together. It just means if they ever DO land there, they'll have a natural sexual and romantic affinity (barring really horrid contradictory aspects).

Originally Posted by PlutonicAnna

However I know someone. His mars squares my Saturn and His Saturn squares my Mars. Both orbs are 3˚06, too big if I follow the max 3˚ orb. His midpoint between his Mars/Saturn is exact (no orb) opp my midpoint.

First, as I noted above, I'm not absolute about the orbs. I'd say a 3.06 would still count in the case of *mutual reception* like that. You've got a double-whammy, so you're going to feel it, especially with midpoint interaction.

That's one area I need to look at more -- planetary midpoints. I use them sometimes, but only with rough aspects like that, where I want to look at something harder. It's like the asteroids (beyond Chiron). They sometimes provide additional clues, but I don't overweight them.

Originally Posted by PlutonicAnna

Within our connection I blame this tension as the reason why we can't get along, but can't stay away from each other.

There may be something else going on that keeps you attracted. This IS one place where I might suggest looking at key asteroids like Eros. Also check Plutonic involvement directly or via midpoints. Pluto creates obsessions (as I'm sure you know).

Originally Posted by PlutonicAnna

Liz Greene writes in her book that a Mars-square-Saturn-synastry can be violent and advices the owners to stay away form each other.
I am curious for other Mars-square-Saturn-synastry experiences!

I would be too, as this isn't something I've seen in charts of couples that I could personally observe.

Originally Posted by PlutonicAnna

I only look at connection between personal planets and outers.
I don't give a connection between outer planetes much attention. It is more a generation-thing (but that's my opinion).

The true outers, I don't usually consider (except as flavoring, or when we've got generational differences). But Jupiter and Saturn to outers ... I do, at least in some cases. Now, with, say, my parents, I discounted everything outside Mars unless aspecting an inner planet because they were born only 16 days apart! So in a case like that, it's only inner planets that are key players. But for instance, in the chart of the guy I'm currently interested in/half-seeing, we're 9 years apart, so I *do* pay attention to Jupiter/Saturn aspects to outers, particularly if they involve an aspect pattern in our natals.

(And I really like Liz Green's book on Saturn, and Jeff Green's book on Pluto, another misunderstood planet I personally resonate with -- I have an exact Mercury-Pluto conjunction in Virgo in my natal chart. *grin*)

Originally Posted by PlutonicAnna

Relationships started at an 'older ages' are often more complicated. It is like the couple is finally ready to use the true potential of their chart (their own chart as the synastry chart as well).

YES! Exactly -- I think the same thing. Another thing I've seen at least in my own life is a tendency for similar aspects to pop up in synastry in subsequent relationships ... as if life is telling me, "You ******* up the first time, let's see if you can manage this NOW?" :-D At least that's been true with Saturn.