Traditional reading of these charts

[scorpiogirl]

Hello!
I d appreciate if you could help me understand these charts by using traditional methods.Which signs are strong?Etc.I already know that my Mars is the strongest planet coz I have WinStar Express software and William Lilly's strengths of planets are available there so thats how I know.
Please give me any insight,it would be greatly appreciated.
I used Porphyry and whole signs for the charts coz I was told it works best.
Can you use Placidus in trad. astrology???
Ana

[scorpiogirl]

PS I feel my Venus in the 8th house(its the cusp!)

[JUPITERASC]

As an astrologer you can use any house system you want to.

Thousands of years ago astrologers used Whole Sign house system for the interpretation of topics (such as career, family, partnership, home) and used Porphyry as well in order to guage planetary strength. The method makes sense and produces results when used in the way originally intended.

I'm busy at the moment so I shall just post this link to give you some reading material on the rationale of house systems until I have time to return http://www.librarising.com/astrology...ignhouses.html

[scorpiogirl]

Thank you for the link and for your time.

[JUPITERASC]

that's ok scorpiogirl here's some more info from dr. farr who gives some excellent reasons in favour of using Whole Sign houses. dr. farr not only gives advice based on personal experience but also accompanies that advice with some useful historical detail (source: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...510#post310510 )

Originally Posted by dr. farr

True enough that all of the quadrant house systems# give pretty similar results, except in the extreme latitudes where more pronounced differences are often noted. I'll add, also, that Equal house often is quite close in results, to the various quadrant systems.

Whole sign, however, often gives significant differences from the quadrant systems...so, every artist will have to decide for themselves; I used Placidus for 35 years (!!), and with good results; then I switched to Whole sign (for the past 13 years), and got - FOR ME - what I believe to be even better results...

*quadrant house systems, in order of historical origination:
Porphyry
Alchabitius (more accurately Rhetorius/Alchabitius)
Campanus
Regiomontanus
Placidus
Koch
...various mid to late 20th century modifications, such as topocentric, etc

Some clarity regarding the way Whole Sign is correctly used, has been provided by dr. farr as follows:

Originally Posted by dr. farr;311413[B

]Cusps[/B]: Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword

- so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something, and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point";

now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other.

And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded!

In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT

- and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses-each house-that is the "cusp" of each house-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.

Example:
- the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)

Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything, but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time-ie, late 8th to early 9th century - this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices, rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign - it worked better (FOR ME)

I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago: only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above, does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?

Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched; but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners-to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...

[scorpiogirl]

Thank you for all this info!So where is my Venus in the end if i use the Whole sign?Is it in the 8th,7th or both?im a little confused coz I ve heard of the 5 degree cusp-when a planet is within those degrees of a house its read in the next house(sometimes both houses).I have no clue how traditional astrologers see this.

[scorpiogirl]

In the beginning I said that according to William Lilly my strongest planet in the chart is Mars.Now being Im "Martian" would that mean that I have a very strong Aries/Scorpio energy in my chart coz of it?Coz trad.astrology says those two signs are ruled by Mars.That would make sense to ME coz those energies are really strong in my personality.Does that make sense to YOU too?

Ana

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by scorpiogirl

Thank you for all this info!So where is my Venus in the end if i use the Whole sign?Is it in the 8th,7th or both?im a little confused coz I ve heard of the 5 degree cusp-when a planet is within those degrees of a house its read in the next house(sometimes both houses).I have no clue how traditional astrologers see this.

scorpiogirl, I can understand why you are asking this question. Your house cusps fall at 0*. I am still really new, but I believe that with whole signs, a planet is in the house in which it sits, period. The Porphyry chart is used to determine a planet's strength, or ability to act in the chart, and sometimes does move planets to different houses and gives a better picture of strength. With both you can see that Venus stays in 7th, and this is where I would be inclined to keep her. I hope if this is incorrect someone will point it out.

Originally Posted by scorpiogirl

Mars is the strongest planet

Here is a really good tutorial on understanding planetary dignity

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html

Table of essential diginities

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/essential_dignities.html

And this one tells you how to use Lily's method

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html#liltab

I haven't completely delineated, but at a glance would say that Venus has stronger accidental dignity than Mars, giving it more ability to act.

If I might suggest, traditional astrology doesn't incorporate the outer planets or Chiron. You might want to make a new chart by scrolling down the chart selection page at astro, and clicking on the box marked "Uranus-Pluto on/off." That way you can get a chart without them.

[scorpiogirl]

Thank you for your answer!
My Mars has 16 points and Venus has 9 in that software I have WinStar Express.
Its a strength of planets according to William Lilly.So Mars by far is the strongest planet,Venus is the second.The reason I trust this is coz it makes a lot of sense to me.But than you very much for taking an interest in my chart,trying to figure out which planet is the strongest.Its a lot of work so I don't expect you to do it for me.Coz I already have a software that calculated it all for me.

PS I usually use Placidus system and there my Venus is in the 8th house.I guess Im just used to it coz its a very good description of me(Venus in the 8th).


Thanks for the links,you re very kind!

Ana

[scorpiogirl]

Here is my chart without the outer planets.Thanks Tsmall!

[scorpiogirl]

And the Porphyry style.

[scorpiogirl]

Actually Tsmall if you feel like it can you please try to figure out which planet is the strongest in my chart?Coz my software uses only essential and accidental dignity!So basically its not a good representation of the real strength.
Im having trouble grasping this Lilly's method,its very complex,I don't understand all of it or how to calculate it.Can you help me?That is if you have the time.

Ana

[tsmall]

Ana, firstly let me say again that I am only just beginning to learn myself. JUPITERASC is a much better resource for these questions, and I am positive will be back with a reply as soon as time allows.

In the meantime this thread was very helpful in understanding why digninty and strength matter and what the difference is between them

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=38863

specifically this post

Originally Posted by Anachiel

Moog;

A distinction has to be made here between Dignity/Debility and Fortitude. I'm not specifically a natal astrologer but, from a horary perspective, if that should help...

Dignity/Debility is likened to when a planet is in its Rule/Fall, or in the Ascendant/12th, etc.

When one "trumps" the other as you said, this is called Fortitude. For example, a planet can get +5 points for being in the sign it rules and then another +3 points for being in its triplicity but -2 points for being in the 8th house, for example.

Dignity/Debility describes the state a planet is in. Whereas, Fortitude describes it's strength or endurance in the matter, so to speak.

Blessings,

Anachiel

as well as this one

Originally Posted by Anachiel

There is a distinction between dignity/debility and fortitude. For example, a person can be very talented or beautiful or intelligent (dignity) but, have little strength or ambition or energy to do anything with it (fortitude).

On the other hand a person can be very cruel, dim-witted or angry (debility) and have a lot of drive, energy and ambition to express it in the world or use it for corrupted means (fortitude).

Don't go off the deep-end about dignity and debility either. For example, Mars, when dignified is bold confident challenging, and unbeatable in competition, war or trials. When debilitated, he is prone to promoting war, quarrels and sedition. You can see the basic Maritian energy is still there but, it is used differently. Killing is still killing either way but one is celebrated and another is illegal. Yet, the circumstances of the action change it's affect upon the native (dignity or debility). Thus, one becomes a celebrated general and another an imprisioned murderer.

Same with fortitude, a planet strong or weak will temper it's actions changing one from perhaps a celebrated general to a mere football team captain. Or, a murderer to a person who simply has a really bad temper and swears a lot.

The trick is to not see these terms as immediately "good" or "bad". 'Mix reason with Art', the ancients said. Circumstances and environment and situation will modify the judgement.

Blessings,

Anachiel

[scorpiogirl]

I think Im getting the hand of it slowly.So far I got 16 for Mars and about 17 for Venus(I used the 8th house)so its a close call between those two.Is Venus swift in motion???

Thank you for trying to explain this to me by the way.

Ana

[scorpiogirl]

Although I think I messed something up the first time.Now its 14 for Mars and 13 for Venus.Nightmare!

[scorpiogirl]

Sugar this is quite enough,thank you very much!I really appreciate it.All you said for my chart is accurate.I do feel Martian the most.God bless,thanks for the link.

[JUPITERASC]

Good that tsmall (a newbie like you) as well as others, have been helpful in providing basic elementary steps towards gaining a greater Traditional understanding of your chart scorpiogirl At this stage I would like to say in answer to your comment

Originally Posted by scorpiogirl

PS I usually use Placidus system and there my Venus is in the 8th house. I guess Im just used to it coz its a very good description of me(Venus in the 8th).

that in general I work with Whole Signs and Porphyry, therefore if you are working with Placidus I shall make no further comments on this matter except to briefly tell you that Claudius Ptolemaeus was a mathematician (and not an astrologer) who had access to the great library of Alexandria before it was destroyed - some think he worked there... Ptolemaeus noted astrological techniques from ancient times and that Vettius Valens was a younger contemporary of Ptolemaeus and was a working astrologer who noted ancient astrological techniques in a nine book work known as The Anthology (Circa 160 C.E.)

The nine books of the Anthology constitute the most comprehensive astrological compendium surviving from the Hellenistic era. Valens' usual practice is to present the doctrines of the "ancients," report how these doctrines had been interpreted by his predecessors, and then give a critical assessment of these doctrines based on his own experience. The doctrines examined by Valens are richly exemplified with the nativities of real persons. The Anthology is also notable for its uncharacteristically personal style and frequent rhetorical musings on the nature of fate. http://www.projecthindsight.com/prod...es/valens.html

Here is a link to Vettius Valens translated http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf for spare time reading - obviously you have other astrological authors to read also and remember that http://www.skyscript.co.uk/ also has free online translations of Ptolemaeus as well as many influential Arab astrological writers - here's a skyscript link to free traditional astrological texts on the web http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html

I would finally like to draw your attention scorpiogirl to the fact that your birth took place thirty six days following a solar eclipse occurring at 22ºVirgo 42' although it is interesting that your chart seems more closely linked to the previous solar eclipse on 26 February 1979 at 7º Pisces 29 - that is because your natal Saturn at 7º Virgo 22' is remarkably exactly (but for 7') opposing that eclipse degree. I notice also that Jupiter was at 0ºLeo at the time of that same eclipse and then retrograded to 28º Cancer before going direct in time to return exactly to 0º Leo at the time of your birth. Some links to discussions regarding eclipses http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...2&postcount=26 http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=37840

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=41899

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=41205

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=40285

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=38178

[scorpiogirl]

JupiterAsc thank you so much for all this information!!I truly appreciate it!I had NO idea about the solar eclipse that happened around my birth,give or take 3 months or so.Im not sure how would have that affect me as I was a baby but I ll get to it.
If you strongly recommend the Whole signs and Porphyry house system then that is what I ll be going for.
Thank you again and God bless!I appreciate your time and effort.

Ana

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by scorpiogirl

JupiterAsc thank you so much for all this information!!I truly appreciate it!I had NO idea about the solar eclipse that happened around my birth,give or take 3 months or so.Im not sure how would have that affect me as I was a baby but I ll get to it.
If you strongly recommend the Whole signs and Porphyry house system then that is what I ll be going for.
Thank you again and God bless!I appreciate your time and effort.
Ana

Porphyry was used specifically for gauging planetary strength ie whether a planet is on an angle - ie ASC/DESC/MC/IC That is because sometimes a planet is not angular using Wholesigns, but then is angular when using Porphyry - and in that case a planet angular using Porphyry is considered to be 'goaded into action'

In any event I would encourage you to experiment and check every advice you are offered and find out if it works for you personally - that is the way to learn

[scorpiogirl]

Well,Im used to having my Venus in the 8th.Using the Porphyry system its in the 7th but right on the cusp.Are there cusps in Porphyry?Yes you are right about using what works for you,learning from your own experience.

[scorpiogirl]

I just read that if a planet is close to the next house its used in BOTH houses.
Would you say that makes sense to you too JupiterAsc?

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by scorpiogirl

Well,Im used to having my Venus in the 8th.Using the Porphyry system its in the 7th but right on the cusp.Are there cusps in Porphyry?Yes you are right about using what works for you,learning from your own experience.

If you would like to re-read the fifth post where I mentioned to you that

"Some clarity regarding the way Whole Sign is correctly used, has been provided by dr. farr as follows:"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr: Cusps: Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword"

and dr. farr continues with a detailed explanation of 'cusps' during the re-reading of which you'll get an answer to your question regarding Porphyry and cusps.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by scorpiogirl

I just read that if a planet is close to the next house its used in BOTH houses. Would you say that makes sense to you too JupiterAsc?

Where did you read that scorpiogirl - would you provide a link or quote? If you are not using Whole Sign, then you can find that the same 'Sign' occupies more than one house so then it would make sense to read a planet as being in the next house because it is in the 'Sign' that occupies the next house as well as the house it is in. This problem does not exist in Whole Sign because one Whole Sign occupies one Whole House

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by scorpiogirl

Well,Im used to having my Venus in the 8th.Using the Porphyry system its in the 7th but right on the cusp.Are there cusps in Porphyry?Yes you are right about using what works for you,learning from your own experience.

Ana,
May I ask what about Venus in the 8th resonates with you? The reason for my question is that, if you look at your chart with the sidereal zodiac you would see that Venus is in fact in the 8th house. I made a chart for you, which I have attached. You can see something of how I came to feel the sidereal zodiac more accurately represents the planets and signs/houses here on a thread JUPITERASC has already directed you towards

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...t=40285&page=2

this post was a real eyeopener

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

ELUCIDATION
Moon is in applying opposition to Sun (while parallel to Sun due to eclipse conditions).

Moon (whether using Sidereal Zodiac or Tropical Zodiac) must travel another four degrees to complete the opposition

Tropically at 08:06AM in order to complete the opposition to Sun Libra by Sign, the Moon must continue travelling until changing signs from Pisces to Aries.

In contrast, your sidereal chart for 08:06AM shows Sun at 8º Virgo 48' and Moon at 4º Pisces 20' in opposition by Sign

Sidereal zodiac: Full moon occurs at 16:06PM when 9º Virgo Sun is directly opposed by 9º Pisces Moon

1. When using Tropical Zodiac your Sun and Moon are

(a) in mathematical opposition

(b) parallel

(c) Inconjunct (Disjunct)

2. When using Sidereal Zodiac your Sun and Moon are

(a) parallel

(b) in opposition mathematically

(c) in opposition by Sign.

As you have said Moon is both Sextile by Sign with Mars and in applying square to Mars

That led me to post this thread

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=41281

because the only understanding I brought with me to studying astrology was that the stars (astro-) were what was important.

If you are interested, here are your whole sign and Porphyry charts in sidereal. I would suggest exploring them as well, and deciding for yourself which (tropical or sidereal) make the most sense to you.

[scorpiogirl]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

Where did you read that scorpiogirl - would you provide a link or quote? If you are not using Whole Sign, then you can find that the same 'Sign' occupies more than one house so then it would make sense to read a planet as being in the next house because it is in the 'Sign' that occupies the next house as well as the house it is in. This problem does not exist in Whole Sign because one Whole Sign occupies one Whole House

Oh no Im asking about the Porphyry system.In Whole sign there are no borders,right?But pretty much its been said that in other systems if a planet is within 5 degrees of the next house it is read in both houses(Donna Cunningham and some others).Although I believe Ptolemy said its read in the next house,he didn't mention both houses.So Im a little confused even though Im inclined to use both houses just coz it works for me.