Father Figure in the Natal Chart

[Dakota]

Hi - I know that a person's mother is usually represented by the moon in a natal chart. So does the sun represent the father?

I purchased a reading on Astro.com that said I had an "absent" father. My sun is at the end of the 2nd house, interpreted in the 3rd. I've heard of an "absent" father when the sun is in the 12th house, never in the 3rd. What configuration could suggest an absent father?

Additonally, last year I purchased a solar return chart. It said my solar return sun was in the 3rd and that that placement is an even stronger suggestion of depression than Saturn in the third . . . yet when I google sun in the third I've never seen any other site mention that. Anybody else hear that?

Thanks,

Dakota

[freedomlover]

Dakota,

Can you post the chart and/or your birth data. I think it would be helpful to everyone if they could actually look at the chart(s). It may have to do with aspects to the Sun in the 3rd, rather than just that placement itself. Plus, we don't know what sign your third house is in.

A very interesting question though. I'm curious to find out the answer to this one myself.

[franklin taylor]

Hello,
Don't know what it might be for certain. Sun squaring Neptune might indicate a "missing father", in the sense of vagueness, inconsistent fathering, maybe. Opposition or squaring of the two may show an exaggerated conflict of outlooks or opinions between the father and child. (not that a given amount is natural, but my father was cool with most of the other siblings dreams and expectations they had in life. As for mine ...NOT! LOL) I was the only one with this aspect out of the eight children. Maybe inconsistent fathering once more. The only squaring planets in my chart I have are planets in square with my luminaries. Moon with Saturn I consider overstrict/ smother mother maybe. I have the Sun/Neptune square at close exactness and I had that type relationship with my father definitely. Ranging from periods of just simply misunderstanding one another and letting it get blown out of proportions with him, and longer times of him not giving a rat's *** if he was involved in my life or not. He certainly was a man with a western hemisphere heavy chart ...always focused on his social life and standing (what others thought to a degree). I worry about that with my chart being western heavy if I would have had children, but I learned that they are more important than society to a degree from seeing my father's lack of that realization. My former spouse had Sun square Neptune also and had about the same identical problems. My Relation with my mother was about the same with the Moon square Saturn relationship. My other luminary square. All of this is somewhat speculation of course. Planets squaring and to a lesser degree, opposition with the Luminaries are exceptionally difficult challenges to master. Since both of them are naturally the most powerful planets we experience. As is most parents or parent figures are the most powerful entities in our existence during the formative years obviously.
Take care
Franklin

[Dakota]

Hi Freedomlover -

I know Arian Maverick has posted instructions on how to post your chart somewhere, but I'm crunched for time right now so here is my birth data and when I have more time I'll mess around with trying to post my chart.

November 3, 1968
2:02 a.m.
Arlington Heights (Cook County), Illinois
USA

[freedomlover]

Dakota,

A couple of things....
First of all, I did your chart on Astro.com, and no matter which house system I used, It came up a 2nd house Sun. I did your solar return for this year, and it showed a 12 th house Sun (using birthplace). I'm scratching my head here.

Second of all, DO y ou have an absent father, or an emotionally unavailable one? Or are you just curious because the reading you received said the aspect signified that and it doesn't apply to you?

[Dakota]

Hi Freedomlover - yes, visually my sun is in the 2nd house, but if you buy the Liz Greene or Robert Hand readings, they acknowledge any planet at the end of a house to be interpreted in the next house. So even my 3rd house Venus gets interpreted as a 4th house Venus because it's so close to the end of the third.

The solar return chart I was referring to was for 2005, not 2006. It was the prior year's. I was just curious if I had a 3rd house sun natally and here this solar return reading mentioned depression if the SR sun is in the 3rd, if that also applied to a natal aspect as well.

My father passed away when I was 25. He was a quiet man, but much more nurturing than my mother. Thought it was weird that the Liz Greene analysis said I had an absent father. I could see that with my mother (moon-Saturn conjunct), just wondered what represented an absent father. My friend has a 12th house sun and she lost her father when she was 12.

[freedomlover]

Ahh, okay. Well, I'll bow out at this point on it. I don't know any technical how-tos or whys about planets being interpreted in the next house. (But I'm curious to learn).

Yeah, when I looked at your chart, I thought it screamed "mother issues". I couldn't see a big emphasis on father issues. But then again I didn't look at it in extreme detail.

[RisingPluto]

How about saturn and or the tenth house?
I always think of saturn and 10th house as the father.
I have always had an absent father, emotionally that is.
Someone who is very detached.
My saturn is in the tenth house and conjuncts MC and sun in libra 10th.
Dakota, maybe the people at astro.com was just interpreting -one- aspect in itself when they looked at your chart and mentioned the absent father.
Like, i have venus square uranus, and I never change partner often at all, yet if you interperate it alone you might think that is the case, I dunno..
Saturn is restricted and cold and detached, yet rewarding when you have been "good". Kind of an oldfashioned male figure...

[franklin taylor]

Hello,
The Sun always represents the father. Good, bad, or mixed aspects to your Sun does relate to your relationship with him. I gave my aspects and only significant aspect I have concerning the Sun. My Neptune. AFA Coursework I have states this. feeling a bit Neptunish myself last night sorry for not answering directly
Take care
Franklin

[Shining Ray]

I think what may possibly represent your father's death in your chart is the Saturn Retrograde in the 8th house. I have read with the Saturn Retrograde the father can either be weak, or absent or very harsh but there is always an issue with the father when Saturn is Retrograde. With Saturn being in your 8th in your case it represents his death.

Looking at your Sun it is in the sign of Scorpio (which relates to the 8th) it is unaspected by any other planets. You have the sign of Leo (ruler of the Sun/father) on the 12th house which might also add to the absent father in your chart.

I have been trying to learn myself the family within the birth chart and have been surfing the net for different information on the subject.

My father died also when I was 18yrs old, so when I first studied Astrology this is what got me hooked into the subject because my chart does show my father missing. It made me realize what happened was not just a cruel act of fate but my father dying had a purpose, there was a reason for his death.

I have Retrograde Saturn opposed my Sun in Pisces/relates to 12th. I also have Leo/father on the cusp of the 12th. I have Scorpio on my I.C but I am still working out the whole who represents who regarding the 4th/10th cusp. But I think it still symbolizes the death in my home life.

So for you and your father in the chart:

Sun in Scorpio (ruler of the 12th)
Saturn Retrograde in the 8th house

EDIT: Here is aquote I found on the web about Saturn Retrograde ;

Next, let’s check the condition of Saturn. Here it is Retrograde, immediately calling attention to the father, who was absent or was there physically, but was weak, passive or even tyrannical (or a combination of both). But in some way the authoritative love we expect from a father is missing or incomplete.

[Frisiangal]

Hi,
Can I add 2 cents worth?

Was the word absent in ".. " in Liz Greene's analysis? 'Absent' can mean so many things, according to how the individual's relationship is/was with the father, and L.G is more of a psychological astrologer than an event-oriented one. Only you can really answer the question yourself by thinking about any effect you consider he has (not) had on your life. Did he fulfil your idea of how a father should be....the 'hero' figure of the Sun? Did he contribute to your upbringing, was he around when you 'needed' him, were you able to communicate with each other/talk together, do you 'miss' him as a dad. I don't know if you're male/female, but I think the father-son relationship is more difficult than the mother or father-daughter one because so much is left unsaid. Mike Rutherford's "The Living Years" says this so perfectly in the song. There was a t.v. commercial in my country quite recently (can't remember the product) in which the question was, "Who was the man who used to come to dinner every evening?". There's another one now that advertises a brand of soup as an afternoon pick-me-up and the dad only knows his son's name because it is on the beaker he's drinking from. They are supposed to be 'funny' ads., but there is a lot of truth hidden in their message, if you know what I mean.
Maybe this is what 'absent' means in L.G's report.

Regarding houses, there is still a lot of controversary between astrologers as to which house represents which parent; once again depending upon whether you see dad as the 'seed of perpetuated life' (4th house) and mum as the central figure who influenced life (10th house), or mum as 'the home maker' (4th) and dad as 'the provider' (10th). Even then it doesn't always fit because I've seen enough dads who are more emotionally caring towards their offspring, and enough mums who put their career first. So, once again, it's really your own feelings that will tell you how you regarded your dad.

I'm one of those rebellious astrologers who believe that a planet is in a house because that is WHERE it was meant to be, otherwise the powers that be would have placed it elsewhere. So, although any planet through progression at a very young age nearing and entering the next house may,for all intent and purposes, express itself for a large period of llife through that house, the essence of the total of its experiences will be to validate its placing in the house in which it is placed at birth. IMHO your 2nd house Sun will therefore be about your emotional (Scorpio)personal value system (2nd house) and the worth you place upon yourself through other people's values of your value and worth. That you will go about it through 3rd,4th and maybe even 5th house experiences as the Sun progresses through those houses will continually validate your self worth. The Sun crossed your 3rd house cusp when you were about 3 yrs. old. If you can remember that far back, it was problably your first taster of the effect of this.

Maybe 3 cents worth

F.

[Shining Ray]

Hi again,

Also having the Moon in 8th can also represent a parent's death, because you have Saturn Retrograde Conjunct the Moon (a tight Conjunction) maybe this represents it being your father. There is a strong parental influence focused on your 8th house.

I have copied the meanings for you to read of Saturn in the 8th and the Moon in the 8th house also.


Saturn in the 8th House indicates a karma arising from an insufficiently responsible attitude to the well being of partners or close associates. The sign, which Saturn occupies, together with the sign and house placement of the Moon will reveal the reality, which underpinned this lack of regard. People with Saturn in H8 are made to feel acutely vulnerable in situations of emotional and sexual intimacy and they are inclined to attract controlling, even bullying partners who remind them of their lack of responsibility. Co-dependent relationships which protract the cruelty and abuse are very common with this placement. This placement of Saturn can make the lower astral plane very intrusive in a person's life through nightmares and even poltergeist experience.

The Moon in the 8th House is an indication that in past lives the emotional needs of others were denied as a result of an overly self-centered, materialistic, or cerebral reality. The sign of the Moon will indicate which. People with the Moon in 8th House are commonly born to parents who cannot function at an emotional level. With other planetary factors, this placement of the Moon can indicate the loss of a parent early in life in which the child is burdened by the bereaved parent’s emotional needs. Although acutely sensitive to the emotional states of others, people with the Moon in H8, who have had little practice in emotional expression early in their lives, tend to be inhibited and emotionally insecure in adult life. Unlike the Sun in this House, the Moon in H8 does not feel at ease in emotionally charged situations and although he may drive his own ill-defined needs underground and focus on those of partners and associates, he is more likely to attempt to evade emotional confrontation by concentrating on impersonal, outer-directed activities and go through life with his own emotional needs unrecognised and unacknowledged.

[Shining Ray]

Also on the subject of Mother/Father

Here is a short explanation on the Mother/Father complexes in the chart. Which might help people (or not) try to fit a description to the Mother or Father using their birth chart. Just some ideas I found on the web.

Father complexes

The Saturn archetype is an element in the ‘Oedipal Complex’ which is one of control and domination. Saturn competed with his children and ate them as they were born so that he would maintain sole rulership over his dominion. He represents the ‘father’ complex, a father who is the disciplinarian, domineering and controlling who always knows what is better for his children. Sun is the hero father, the ‘hero’ complex, one who is courageous and brave. Jupiter is the generous and knowing father, Mercury is the smart, chatty father, Mars is the dynamic sporty father who is also impatient and aggressive, Pluto is the brooding father who is deep often having paranoid fits, explosive anger, powerful and controlling. Uranus is the outside father, always out saving other people’s problems not able to get close to their child. Neptune is the dreamer father with plans for the future that never get done. Chiron is the wise father often emotionally wounded but able to steer the child in the right direction. Venus too can be a father archetype, the sexually active father who thinks more of his own appearance than putting food on the table. Moon is the fussing father who is so identified with his children that they can’t go outside without an adult to supervise.

Mother Complexes

The Moon is the feminine Goddess, she is the archetype that gives us milk, the food for our body and nurturing love for our soul. When we do not get the nurturing that we need from our mother or mother caregiver we get ‘fixated’ or stuck in the need for love, a conflict within ourselves – “I want my mother’s love even though I know that I will be hurt by her.” This is the classic ‘double-bind’, damned if I do and damned if I don’t, a no-win situation. It is from this situation that we develop a complex, with the Moon it becomes a mother complex. For example Moon in Pisces shows a huge need for the person to be enveloped into the mother, into the universe, a protective escape from the harm of the world. The planetary aspects to the Moon show whether this will form a complex.

With Moon in aspect to Neptune the native needs a lot of affection and will become fearful of abandonment and expects nurturing and unconditional love. The mother complex for a man, if it develops, will be for a woman who is literally a mother, not necessarily just a lover (wash the socks, clean the car, put on the band-aid, kiss good night, etc.), the projection is one of the ideal mother / lover. Moon in a positive aspect with Venus is pleasant, getting along nicely with females and expecting affection. If it develops as a mother complex through planets in negative aspect to the Moon then it would manifest as needing a woman to do mother things while he goes out and plays around with other women. For a woman this aspect is one of needing a mother who shows her how to love, mother as a model of sensual femininity.

Moon in poor aspect with Mars is seen as an impatient, hurtful and aggressive mother. The complex is one of seeking pain, perhaps as a sadomasochist, “hurt me when you love me“. A mother complex for a woman manifests as controlling though punishment. Moon conjunct Saturn is a cold controlling mother, the complex would become one of seeking a mother figure who is depressing, demanding and domineering. In women the complex is one of seeking a nurturing love relationship despite knowing that she will be rejected. For a woman it becomes a complex in which she controls her partner through the giving and withdrawing of love.

Our standard “Mother Complex” is one in which the native needs a mothering partner or mother support figure, she may be an older woman or a woman with overbearing needs to nurture. The male projects his needs out into the collective unconscious and finds his match, a nurturing or manipulating mother figure. A woman needs to be aware that she may easily manifest this complex herself when the Moon is poorly aspected in her chart just as a man may manifest a father complex when the Sun is poorly aspected.

[Shining Ray]

Ha ha I think one of my lessons in life is to know when to shut up. I can't half go on. (I will shut up now.)

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[Pallas-trine-Mars]

What I've been wondering recently is if Scorpio or the 8th house are the sign or house that should be associated with the father & not Leo & the Sun, I've noticed myself how much Scorpios seem to concern themselves, in somewhat of a resentful & jealous way of their fathers.

[groovygal]

my father past away when I was 14, he was always working, very career minded, never present

my mother was not present emotionally, I think due to my exact moon conjunct saturn

Here's my chart:

http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi....gif&res=63&va=

[freedomlover]

Groovygal,

Some thoughts occurred to me while looking at your chart?

Are you career minded or commitment minded to a relationship?

The reason I'm asking is that you have a stellium in Virgo in the 11th and the aforementioned Mars/Pluto conjunction in Libra/12th.

Often, people with a mother like yours ( I had one, too.) have problems with emotional intimacy in a one-on-one relationship, because it brings up the feelings of rejection. All romantic love relationships will bring up the pain from any lack of mothering in one way or another, depending on how willing you are to let go of the past and open up.

Also, often those with a parent who valued career over family wind up subconsciously doing the same thing. (Again, speaking from experience.)

I could see a definite possibility that the two aspects I mentioned could mean the following: The Mars/Pluto conjunction in Libra/12 could mean that what you really need and desire is to be able to "be One" with a man, to open up and let someone get really close to you. Yet it is in the house of self-sabotage and procrastination and delusion. ( Could be a deep spiritual love if you're open to it).

The Virgo stellium could show that you are making up for this lack by trying to be part of a "tribe", a group, or workplace. You may have a wide circle of friends that is your "family", but it is not what your soul development needs. Not that you should do away with your friends, but they shouldn't take the place of a deep emotional connection with a significant other.

You may be having romantic relationships, but from your chart, they seem to be staying on the more superficial level, with no real foundation.

The Mars/Pluto conjunction could also show a power struggle/and/or co-dependency issues with men in a relationship, and could be the reason you self-sabotage.

This is looking at your natal chart, and you could have come a long way past the birth issues by now. But seeing as how you keep posting about this, I think it's really bothering you and you're truly seeking some answers and maybe willing to try a different approach.

These are just some thoughts that occurred to me. I'm still in the relatively early stages of learning astrology. I would greatly appreciate any feedback you could give me. Hope you find this somewhat helpful.

[groovygal]

Thanks for the analysis. You are very accurate in the reading!

To answer your question, as far as my career goes, I am very ambitious with accumulating wealth and sustaining a nice lifestyle (leo sun in 10th), but most of my money making endeavours have been on the unpredictable, erratic, unreal and on the delusional side (neptune in 2nd house). For example, I was involved with many get rick quick schemes on the internet that was very lucrative on my end but ended rapidly after the dot com bust (I think Uranus is in my 2nd house too although I've had a recent report stating it was on the 1st). Now I am an artist and sell to the very wealthy in NYC. I am very career-minded, yes!
The issue about my relationship with my mother is that I've been supporting her financially since my father past away. That would probably be the exact moon conjunct saturn. We get along fine but there is a sense of resentment.
My relationships with men have almost always been emotionally unfulfilling, fickle, unstable, and superficial. There has been a pattern of an interlink between my career and the men I date. I tend to choose men that will support me financially and steer me to the right direction with my career, so the relationship feels somewhat transactional and although beneficial not completely fulfilling.
When I find someone that I connect with emotionally, I become very guarded and I will hurt him very badly or/and vice versa (with intent), in a destructive, power struggling way, (desire to control). I could feel the Mars/Plutonian energy instantly when that happens and it's very frustrating for me because I want to be in an emotionally gratifying relationship (I have lots of Libra influences) and it's very tough to channel that energy in a healthy manner.

Anyways, any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. I am a newbie at astrology charts, a skeptic actually, but transending to a newfound believer!

[unukalhai]

The Sun/Moon/Saturn vs Child/Mother/Father debate has raged on for ages, certainly. Any number of books will claim a different association. I've considered the father to be Saturn as Saturn is an earth planet, associated with stability and the physical world, and it's generally the fathers job to handle the physical stability of the family. The Moon, a water object, deals with emotions and feelings, usually the role of the mother. The Sun, a fire object, deals with the spirit and will, it grows, and brings forth life, much as the plants of the field reach towards the Sun in their growth, such describes the role of the child.

In planetary cycles appropriate for midpoint usage, I've considered Moon/Venus to be the motherhood cycle, and Mars/Saturn to be the fatherhood midpoint. Nurturing (Moon) with love (Venus) and taking action (Mars) to ensure stability and physical needs attained through the world (Saturn).

But hey, I'm just a Uranian radical, so don't take my word for it :P

Curious, could you share a more exact time of passing than your 25th year? I'm curious how transits play into this; in 1993 your Moon/Saturn conjunction was squared by a Uranus/Neptune conjunction, a powerful and long cycle; those hit by the conjunction in 1993 universally report powerful, life changing events. Maybe a more exact date could point us to the set of transits that speak for the experience, and better identify which object represents your father in your chart...

[Claire19]

With a weak or absent father Neptune is aspecting the Sun and Saturn. Also 12th house sun. Also Piscean.

Claire

[Dakota]

Gosh, it's been a long time since I've gotten on this website and I didn't realize so many people had posted to my original thread. Thanks so much for everyone's responses. A special thanks to Shining Ray, a lot of what you posted was eerily uncanny. Especially the Moon in the 8th house stuff. Also Shining Ray, I love the picture associated with your name, not sure what the technical term for that is, it's not an emoticon . . . (the thing with the eye and it's crying and it's titled Unloved). Where did you find it and how do you get those icons to post with your name?

Thanks again,

Dakota

P.S. - Also, I had a question about Fisingal's (spelling?) post. You said something along the lines of my Scorpio Sun being in the 2nd house had to do with my emotional worth riding on how other people value me? Am I butchering that? I am trying to get a better understanding of that . . . can you give me an example?

[Belgianmoonguy]

I would go by Saturn and the ruler of the 4th/ 10th house, which you consider as father or mother (i guess this will be something i'll never solve)

I have Saturn in Scorpio in 3
My father is very involved in my life...

My brother has Saturn in virgo in 3
My father wasn't so involved in his life as in mine
But now Saturn receives an opposition from current Uranus (in my brothers chart), and they search more contact towards each other, whjich is a good evolution off course

[Claire19]

Re Scorpio Sun in the 2nd house. My take is that you will develop your own self worth and talents in order to earn your own income and to provide yourself with the comforts of life and to be financially secure. This can be done through insurance, taxation, renovation, refurbishment, recycling, handling goods of the dead such as estate matters, money through investments, working for large corporations, the occult, psychology, secret, confidential matters, even sex therapy. So many scenarios depending on the aspects elsewhere. Where our Sun is where we need to shine and it is our ego identity.

Claire

[Shining Ray]

Hi Dakota, glad you liked the posts, I did a search on my yahoo and typed in avatars or free avatars, and I just looked around on the different links for some nice pictures. That is how I found this eye. Very dramatic picture isn't it, I love it.