Are outer planets generational or personal?

[JUPITERASC]

I think it fair to point out to the reader that I did not ask the question and I did not initiate the thread

On the contrary, I have made clear statements all along that the outer planets are a generational influence because:

(a)
the outer planets have only recently been discovered - in fact as far as Pluto is concerned it's mostly guesswork because Pluto is just entering the opposition to its discovery degree (22 Cancer) and there are no tried and tested delineations of Pluto in Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces, Aries, Taurus, Gemini - it's all guesswork and experimentation

(b)
Uranus, Neptune and Pluto orbits of the sun are
Uranus 84 years
Neptune 168 years
Pluto 248 years

contrast these orbits with
Mercury 88 days
Venus 225 days
Mars 687 days
Jupiter 12 years
Saturn 30 years

of the entire world population, few experience a Uranus Return, none experience a Neptune Return, none experience a Pluto Return.

[I moved this discussion out of the Vertex thread, where it was going rapidly off-subject from what the OP asked, and onto a new thread devoted exclusively to outer planet discussion. - Moderator]

[astrologer50]

Originally Posted by myst1calz

does that somehow lessens its impact or influence? it being generational gives it even greater significance. outer planets represent higher consciousness and tends to have a generational influence that impacts the collective of humanity. those who carry these generational markers are paradigm shifters, simply put. those with pluto conjunct vertex in their natal can use this energy for destructive purposes or to respond to it with loving compassion and help ignite the more positive forces onto those who are receptive of this kind of energy.

absolutely NOT

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=38832

influences of ‘outers’ Uranus, Neptune and Pluto
Well I strongly disagree, the outer planets are extremely relevant like I said earlier and make a huge influence in interpreting the natal chart aspects.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=303073&postcount=13

[astrologer50]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

wilsontc has this to say re your question myst1calz and the point you have made as well as the point wilsontc has made are both good points in my opinion

Current modern astrological interpretation borrows from and relies on Traditional Astrology - except for interpretations regarding Uranus, Neptune and Pluto (which are only visible with the use of powerful telescopes, therefore Traditional Astrology did not observe them and so could not take their influence into account)

Because Pluto was discovered only during the 1930's and has an orbit around the sun of 248 years, Modern Astrologers do not know/cannot delineate the influences of Pluto in the Signs of Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces, Aries, Taurus and Gemini. Pluto's discovery degree was 22Cancer. It's early days!

Modern astrologers can and DO delineate the influences of these planets. So why keep reiterating/copying/pasting same old posts as if Trad astrology is the only version that works and is acceptable? Because it's not, Modern astrology DOES work and has evolved, if you want to stay 'stuck in past' that's your perogative of course, but do NOT dismiss Modern astrology as irrelevant!

This does NOT negate in any way how modern astrologers, use and interpret Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. The *aspects* are extremely valid, whether you use them or not!

[Ruka_5]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

It is important to remember that Uranus takes 84 years and 118 days to orbit the sun! Neptune orbits the sun every 168 years and Pluto orbits the sun once every 248 years (Mercury takes just 88 days! Venus takes 255 days, Mars approx two years, Jupiter takes twelve years and Saturn 30)

and so:

QUOTE
In an astrology chart, the energy of Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto is expressed on a generational, rather than a personal level because each of these three 'outer planets' takes several years to pass through a single sign and so their influence affects entire generations. In astrology, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto are therefore known as generational planets. This should be considered in interpreting their placement during an astrology chart reading.........how each planet’s energy is expressed is the zodiac sign and where planetary influence manifests depends on the astrological houses...everyone born within a span of several years shares the same expression... END QUOTE


http://www.suite101.com/content/gene...lanets-a174981

Actually it's not that clear-cut. The outers are only 'just generational' if they aren't prominent in the chart in some way. By that I mean : aspecting an angle or a luminary, forming aspects to inner planets. If that's the case, then in that particular person's life, they're more than just generational; they've become 'personalized'.

[astrologer50]

ruka 5,
I would take it further and suggest all aspects are relevant, even outers to outers. Say saturn conj uranus (freedom v convention, wanting to make changes but feeling stuck/resticted from doing so) saturn conj neptune (fear of unknown) saturn conj pluto (raging ambition) Plus any 'outers' making contact with Angles is a major influence

[astrologer50]

As I have said previously and will keep repeating...

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC
Obviously - the influence of the outer planets is generational rather than personal

Originally Posted by wilsontc

Jupiter,

You said:


This is a debated point with modern astrologers. While some modern astrologers see the outer planets as only applying to generations, some modern astrologers argue that, since the planets are in a person's chart, they have a personal effect. It is also important to note that if outer planets are conjunct (energy is combined with) the four major points of the chart (Ascendant, Descendant, Midheaven, and Descendant), they can have a very personal effect on the chart owner. In addition, if personal planets aspect outer planets, this can also cause the outer planets to take on a "personal" feel with the chart owner.

Looking into personal possibilities,

Tim

Personally, I don't know of ANY modern astrologers (on AW) that don't associate outers, to personal effect.

I would also add that if any of the 'outers' are conjunct someone's sun for example, that sun (whatever sign) would be strongly influenced by that outer, thereby becoming an honorary Saturnian, Uranian, Neptunian and Plutonain

[astrologer50]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

The issue is that, because they have only recently been discovered, then the influences of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are unconfirmed.

unconfirmed by who?? you?

Robert Hand delineates the outers,
Karen Hamaker-Zondag uses the outers

I could research and makes dozens of lists of modern astrologers that successfully delineate outers, but I do not feel it necessary to 'compete' with your over Modern v Traditional. This issue will never be resolved to anyone advantage or success and will only induce *flame wars* between members resulting in warnings or banning.....

[Pisceanfool]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

many astrologers delineate the outers - that is not my point!

what I am saying is, that because Uranus Neptune and Pluto have only recently been discovered, therefore it is self-evident that their influences remain unconfirmed

I am glad you have understood that there are many different opinions on the subject and that I am simply stating my opinion just as you are stating your opinion

I'm interested in your definition or idea of what criteria makes them 'confirmed'? I have that issue with chiron and some asteroids because I find some very contradicting and varied interpretations. However, with the outers, that doesn't appear to be the case imo.

[astrologer50]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

just because you don't know of any does not mean there are none

I will restate my thoughts because you obviously don't get it!
there are NONE on Astrology Weekly that I know of and I've been here a **** sight longer than you

what I am saying is, that because Uranus Neptune and Pluto have only recently been discovered, therefore it is self-evident that their influences remain unconfirmed

Exactly, to YOU

[astrologer50]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

just because you don't know of any does not mean there are none

True, just because there have been (in your words unconfirmed practises) using uranus, neptune and pluto doesn't mean they are invalid either!

[Ruka_5]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

The issue is that, because they have only recently been discovered, then the influences of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are unconfirmed.

...Oh, I have Pluto holding hands with my moon, and trust me, its 'influences' are felt on a daily basis.

You don't work with outers and believe they have no affect? Rad. But you can't speak for me and the millions of other people who have the outers busy in their charts and definitely do feel them and therefore, consider them valid and incorporate them into their chart analysis, sorry.

[wilsontc]

Ruka,

You said:

Originally Posted by Ruka_5

Actually it's not that clear-cut. The outers are only 'just generational' if they aren't prominent in the chart in some way. By that I mean : aspecting an angle or a luminary, forming aspects to inner planets.

That makes sense to me. For example, if the outer planet is in one of the "Universal" houses (9-12th house) and NOT on the Midheaven, the person will tend to be very universal about the way they use this outer planet energy. For example, if the outer planet is in this universal chart area, they will focus on this outer planet as something belonging to something beyond themselves and their interactions with others.

On the other side,

Tim

[wilsontc]

Jupiter,

You said:

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

...because Uranus Neptune and Pluto have only recently been discovered, therefore it is self-evident that their influences remain unconfirmed

For me what made me aware of the outer planets is that most of them are on my Ascendant and those that aren't on my Ascendant are in the Personal area of my chart (houses 1-4). So I am VERY aware of the effect of outer planets. It's this personal experience agreeing with the modern interpretations that has convinced me that outer planets can have a personal effect and that modern astrologers, though they have been working with outer planets for a relatively short period of time (relative to traditional astrologer), "have some thing there" when they talk about outer planets.

The thing that seems to allow modern astrologers is the STRONG effect outer planets exhibit when they transit a major point in a chart. For example, whether or not you know it, when Pluto (transformation) transits your IC (inner world), there is a deep inner transformation which is felt. It is most interesting to watch in those who don't KNOW they are having a major Pluto transit. They write into the boards and say things like, "I feel a deep inner transformation", "My life has been changed somehow", "I don't know how I'm going to get through this, this inner awareness is SO unlike me," etc. All describing in their own words this inner transformation.

That's the sort of thing that verifies to me, as a modern astrologer, that the modern planets have an effect on everyone and there is a "there there".

Outerly transiting,

Tim

[Ruka_5]

Originally Posted by wilsontc

Ruka,

You said:


That makes sense to me. For example, if the outer planet is in one of the "Universal" houses (9-12th house) and NOT on the Midheaven, the person will tend to be very universal about the way they use this outer planet energy. For example, if the outer planet is in this universal chart area, they will focus on this outer planet as something belonging to something beyond themselves and their interactions with others.

On the other side,

Tim

...Pretty much, yeah.

I absolutely cannot take credit for this theory though because it isn't mine at all; I read it on a website years ago. It did a good job of explaining to me why it was that I definitely felt the outers and saw them in myself and everyone I know, despite having read at the time on other boards that they're generational only.

This is part of the reason why I just can't sign on to traditional astrology either - because they completely omit the outers, and without them there (or without taking them into account on a personal level), in all honesty my chart just doesn't make any sense, and neither do the charts of a lot of people I know.

[astrologer50]

I have had saturn, uranus, neptune and pluto go over my MC and it has had major life changing influences, most of them unpleasant. As well as making 'hard aspects' to personal planets and they all work for me...

I have had Neptune and uranus and saturn go over my Asc with devasting effects. Members can easily 'look back' and research how these outers have affected their lives, but just because they have not written books or been published does not negate thier experiences.

These forums of FULL of people who are feeling the affects of transiting outers, making their lives hell and want to know what's going on... all these members simply cannot be wrong. so every time you post (jupiter asc) on threads like transits affecting from 'outers' are you going to suggest they see a shrink? as they can't possibly equate their life events to 'outers'??

Transiting outers, to personal planets, whether in 1-4houses, personal houses or not to me will still have a major effect on personal planets, sun through to mars and even jupiter.

Many, many member here have these *major transits* and they ALL say they *feel* the effects and have major infleunces on their lives....

waybreads comments on Trad v Modern thread

(9) The outer planets certainly cast light!! How else could they have been detected with the types of telescopes that existed unto the early 20th century? Granted, this is "reflected light", a quality that they share with the planets visible to the naked eye. The "no light" thesis is a misreading of the history of astronomy. The outer planets are really important in my experience; notably Pluto. I am sorry that you have not found them valuable. Some traditional astrologers do.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...9&postcount=40

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Ruka_5

...Oh, I have Pluto holding hands with my moon, and trust me, its 'influences' are felt on a daily basis.

You don't work with outers and believe they have no affect? Rad. But you can't speak for me and the millions of other people who have the outers busy in their charts and definitely do feel them and therefore, consider them valid and incorporate them into their chart analysis, sorry.

I'm not speaking for you! I'm speaking my own opinion which is that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto have a generational effect.

That means that, because generations are composed of individuals then, in that sense, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto have an effect on generations of individuals i.e. individuals as part of a generation

[dhundhun]

Personal for sophisticated people (probably less than 15% of world population), generational for simple people.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by astrologer50

......These forums of FULL of people who are feeling the affects of transiting outers, making their lives hell and want to know what's going on... all these members simply cannot be wrong.

Many, many member here have these *major transits* and they ALL say they *feel* the effects and have major infleunces on their lives....
waybreads comments on Trad v Modern thread

Thank you for illustrating my point! These effects are felt by large numbers of people because the effects of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are generational and being generational, therefore large numbers of people are affected

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

I think it fair to point out to the reader that I did not ask the question and I did not initiate the thread

On the contrary, I have made clear statements all along that the outer planets are a generational influence because:

(a)
the outer planets have only recently been discovered - in fact as far as Pluto is concerned it's mostly guesswork because Pluto is just entering the opposition to its discovery degree (22 Cancer) and there are no tried and tested delineations of Pluto in Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces, Aries, Taurus, Gemini - it's all guesswork and experimentation

(b)
Uranus, Neptune and Pluto orbits of the sun are
Uranus 84 years
Neptune 168 years
Pluto 248 years

contrast these orbits with
Mercury 88 days
Venus 225 days
Mars 687 days
Jupiter 12 years
Saturn 30 years

of the entire world population, few experience a Uranus Return, none experience a Neptune Return, none experience a Pluto Return.

Okay. I never considered that, but the reason I reject them is because they don't cast light or electromagnetic rays that affect people, at least not at an individual level.

I consider them as fast moving Fixed Stars of the Nature of their Octaves, but only in Country Natal Charts.

Originally Posted by Pisceanfool

I'm interested in your definition or idea of what criteria makes them 'confirmed'? I have that issue with chiron and some asteroids because I find some very contradicting and varied interpretations. However, with the outers, that doesn't appear to be the case imo.

Then you haven't seen enough charts. Wait until you've read a few thousand charts.

My chart in particular completely contradicts every standard interpretation with respect to the Outer Planets, not to mention the transits of the Outer Planets completely contradict every standard interpretation as well.

And which interpretations? People are fleeing the Pluto is "death" thing because there's no evidence to support it.

Originally Posted by Ruka_5

...Oh, I have Pluto holding hands with my moon, and trust me, its 'influences' are felt on a daily basis.

But it doesn't. You've been led to believe that, and you either discount or are unaware of other possibilities to correctly explain what you believe is happening.

Originally Posted by Ruka_5

You don't work with outers and believe they have no affect? Rad.

I have yet to see a chart to prove any claims that they have any effect, and I've literally seen thousands of charts.

Someone show me a chart instead of waxing eloquently.

Originally Posted by Ruka_5

But you can't speak for me and the millions of other people who have the outers busy in their charts and definitely do feel them and therefore, consider them valid and incorporate them into their chart analysis, sorry.

But you don't feel them. You only believe you do, and as I said, you have either not investigated or you discount or are unaware of other possibilities to explain what you think you're "feeling."

[waybread]

The outer planets have effects, primarily in two ways.

1. Generational effects. Of course these have an impact on people! How could they not? My parents were of the generation that experienced the Depression and World War II. Of course these affected people. I am a baby boomer. My children are living through a recession. And so on. This is always worthwhile knowing when you read a chart. Pluto in Leo redefined the youth culture. Pluto in Capricorn is redefining business and banking.

2. Outer planets generally make contact with one or more personal planets or angles. Outer planets appear in different houses and degrees, even if the sign is the same for many years. If we take the example of an outer planet squaring one's sun, in a positive way, this is a call for profound personal transformation. Otherwise, they experience its negative effects. If someone mishandles Pluto square sun, s/he turns the transformative potential onto other people; generally manifesting it as a need to feel more powerful (Plutonian) than they are, or to dominate in inter-personal relations. If someone has Neptune square sun, s/he may have a life-long identity crisis and self-esteem issues. With Uranus square sun, the person may need constant disruptive excitement.

Any electro-magnetic rays or light reaching the earth from other planets (excepting the moon and sun) are very weak. Bob, I know you've looked at radio signals and there is a long history of astro-meteorology; and while I don't discount them, it doesn't begin to explain the level of detail at which astrology operates in natal chart interpretation. Nor does it explain how horary works.

Pluto does not symbolize one's actual death. It works more like nature if you live in a temperate climate. We need to kill off anything metaphorically dead or dying so that new growth has space to take its place.

[astrologer50]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

Thank you for illustrating my point! These effects are felt by large numbers of people because the effects of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are generational and being generational, therefore large numbers of people are affected

NO they are *feeling the effects* because it's personal to them and experienced by THEM! maybe when you been around the forum a while longer and got more experience responding to threads/charts/members

Originally Posted by dhundhun

Personal for sophisticated people (probably less than 15% of world population), generational for simple people.

nice one, I agree. I like your posts in Trad v modern thread to

[Mahasvapna]

The idea that we cannot confirm the effects of the outer planets because they have not been known about long enough to complete enough transits (and none in the case of Pluto) doesn't really hold water.

Part of astrological research is in looking back through the major events in history and exploring the relationship between the stars and those events.

One thing I think is important to remember is that the influence of outer planets, and other bodies, can be both generational and personal, in the same way that the Sun warms one whole side of the earth at any given moment, but also warms and affects individuals at the same time - it's the same sun, and it's effecting everyone, but some people have conditions making it harmful to them, some aren't hydrated enough, and some people are just configured in that moment to feel recharged and refreshed. Someone will look at the sunrise or the sunset at just the right moment and feel inspired or moved emotionally. Just one light, it's the same light to everyone, but it's different to everyone as well.

By looking at history and understanding the effect of the outer spheres on the generations, we can then infer what effect it then has on individuals, even in signs that it has not transited through since we were aware of it - as above, so below; how it affects the individual will be reflective of how it affects the whole, and I think this is where most of the interpretations of pluto probably come from.

With the right conditions in support of one another, even the weakest application of energy can yield powerful force. I don't personally hold the idea that the planets have any effect on us electromagnetically - the natural forces don't operate like that, and if it were true then anyone born too close to the wrong kind of electronics or technology would have an invalidated natal chart. I fall on the "spiritual mechanics" side of that debate, and under this paradigm actual time and space are irrelevant - everything in the universe is exerting influence on everything else all of the time.

I believe that the faster cycles are more obvious and therefore we say that they are more prominent or personal. Just as we say that a person grows up faster than a tree, a puppy grows up faster than a baby. Different cycles, faster and slower. Slow cycles may not make for as wild a ride so you can more clearly see the ups and downs - but the rest of the cycles still take place in context to it and from different angles of operation, altering the bumpiness of those faster and wilder rides.

If you prefer a purely scientific approach to astrology involving the strength and weakness of actual rays of light, then probably best to give up astrology rather than ignore the obvious flaws in that quack science - if that theory is true (and there's no reason it needs to be other than so that atheists can also enjoy astrology) then it should be no problem to create a machine which will mimic the proper electromagnetic signature necessary to birth whatever kind of person we want to, right?

peace

[Pisceanfool]

I see a lot of presumptions and accusations being thrown around based on strong personal opinion. For example Bobzemco assumes I have not seen thousands of charts simply because I do not prescribe to what be believes is true then compares to his personal chart which carries a strong personal bias. Very offensive and arrogant to presume such things and has no weight whatsoever.

EDIT: 'death' is transformation.

I think I will reiterate others in saying the real question comes down to the reality of how astrology is possible. Then we can determine what objects or points can influence or not. This is something which is highly debatable and unable to be proven by empirical evidence (scientific method) simply due to inherent methodological flaws in the study itself (the same can be true of most of psychology).

By saying me or so and so has no influence of the outer planets(or contradictory influences) is the exact same premise as those who conversely claim the same in regards to the outers having a personal effect. The point is they have observed it in this fashion as a reality in their perception and study. This is all we can study astrology based upon, which makes it more of an art than science. Therefore, one school of thought really cannot claim to be more valid until a real understanding of astrology is established or proven.

[Pisceanfool]

"maybe when you been around the forum a while longer and got more experience responding to threads/charts/members" lol he joined in january 2008 u joined november 2008. Actually, i respect you as an astrologer astrologer50 and even agree with you, I just wanted to point out the unjust accusation. Ad hominem.

[astrologer50]

pisceanfool, if you perceive a personal attack ( which is deeply frowned upon on AW) why not use the report feature for moderators to deal with said person/matter?
above right of post [!] that's what it's here for.....