Suicide

[watchman512]

Evening enlightened ones

I know this maybe a touchy subject, though i am curious as to what would trigger suicide in a person. Pluto yes is one of the 1st that come to mind, though what would you consider as other triggers,houses,transists etc?

The reason i ask is that more and more young people have been taking their own life.Though not for the same reasons as what other older generation had done.

[VenusInAries]

If you can get ahold of a book called Suicide by Karen Ober Savalan it's really good. She gives lots of examples of those that killed themselves and attempted, the transits they were going through and how they played out with certain events that triggered the suicide. Most of all of them had a transiting Neptune on their Sun.

[VenusInAries]

Great charts Shining, I can also if you don't have the suicide book list the people in there their birthdays and the day they died if you wanted to research that Watch

[Discover]

Hi Shining Ray,
I so much appreciate the chart diagnosis of your findings. Truly insightful.
Thank you.

[Frisiangal]

Hi,
In another thread regarding suicide tucked somewhere in the A.W. boards, I mentioned the position of Chiron being found in cases of suicide. Thanks to Shining Ray's devotion at providing real-life examples, a look at the Noon charts reveals, without house influence:

Natal charts:
Rick: Sun-Mars with Chiron at base of YOD
Clara: Chiron conjunct Neptune in Taurus (sleeping pills?),
Jon: Sun conjunct Chiron square Saturn, Neptune ssq. Chiron, inconjunct Mars,
Elizabeth: Saturn square Chiron,
Justin: Mercury inconjunct Chiron (hotel), Mercury square Neptune,
Wally: Mars square Chiron, Saturn quincunx Chiron.

Transits at suicide:
Rick: Tr. Chiron square Sun, Tr. Mercury opp. Chiron,
Clara: Tr. Chiron quincunx Tr, Sun conjunct Saturn,
Jon: Tr. Mars semi-square Chiron, tr. Saturn conjunct Mars, tr. Chiron opp. Mars,
Elizabeth: Tr. Chiron conjunct Saturn.
Justin: Tr. Mars conjunct Saturn, Tr. Chiron-Pluto conjunct Neptune quincunx Saturn,
Wally: Tr. Mars square Mars sqaure Chiron.

I find this truly remarkable.

P.S. and I haven't even yet checked to see how/what BML was doing.

F.

[Belgianmoonguy]

Originally Posted by Shining Ray

In the natal chart for possible indications for a person who may be suicidal I have read is:

Mars 12th house/Pisces/angular to Neptune
Pluto in 12th house or in 8th house
Neptune in 8th house or in 1st

But these people may also be exposed to a suicide in their environment. I have read for transits that Pluto transiting the 12th house/Neptune or Pisces can be self destructive at this time. I would think Mars would have to be involved to activate such violence to one's own body so possibly look to Mars being involved in the transit. A Mars/Neptune/Pluto type energy transiting.

My dad and brother have done attempts to suicide
Both have Mars in Pisces
My father has 29° Libra Neptune in 1
My brother has Venus in 8, but Pluto trining it from house 4 (both 18°, so a very narrow orbed trine)

[Arian Maverick]

Perhaps we should use some of these indicators to explore VenusinAries' chart

Arian Maverick

[franklin taylor]

Hello,
yes, as Venus in Aries says there, Neptune crossing your sun can be indicated as a suicide trigger. you are usually dabbling in dangerous behaviours, and habits at that time, My former spouse attempted suicide last July. Neptune was near perfect conjunction with her natal Sun. It was with alcohol and pills and was a very close call. I called an ambulance and got there in the nick of time (sad, I lived further away and beat the ambulance to her home). I know of another Aquarian who was very suicidal earlier this fall under the influence of Alcohol, Neptune's favorite "dealing with Emotion Juice". It went retrograde much of the last half of the year, but is direct for awhile now. Now it is closing in on her Sun point again she has become more unstable once more. Has been somewhat unstable for a while the orb for the effect can be up to four degrees especially as it is coming towards the point. We are estranged totally now though. So there's nothing I can do. This also means it is directly opposite my Sun and I am not doing great myself, but this is weaker of an effect. Neptune Squaring your Natal Sun is a dangerous aspect for this by the same token.

[pale as death]

saturn is to blame for this-major aspects with sun ,moon,or asc can be indications.
also when its placed in 12th house.
mel gibson had problems when saturn was in opposition of his 1st house n he thought about killing himself.

[Claire19]

Mel Gibson has a big problem with alcohol although he has so much else going for him in life, this could be his downfall. Can we look at his chart to see where this is indicated???

In the celebrity forum perhaps.

Claire

[Pisceanfool]

As much as astrology has to do with alot of this, suicidal thoughts can be completely circumstantial. I have thought about suicide many times mostly because i dont really like myself and used to see life as utterly pointless when i was completely atheist. Although i do have an afflicted moon/jupiter and a strong pluto.

[KayBug]

This is a quote written by a person I was in a chat room with one time.

I find it very fitting, unfortunately I don't remember his name.

"Suicide is what happens when a person's pain out weights his or her coping skills."

[mdinaz]

Someone close to me was preparing to commit suicide once. I was called late at night by this person crying and upset, which despite all they had gone through, I'd never seen them this upset before. So I immediately went over to the apartment. When I arrived the person was asleep on the couch, pistol in hand, the pistol loaded and hammer cocked. I was lucky I didn't shoot myself by accident while removing the gun from their hand. Looking at their chart at about the time of the incident I find:

Tr Neptune sq Moon, separating 2 degrees.
Tr Neptune sq ASC, applying 1 degree
Tr Node opp Sun applying 17 minutes
Tr Pluto trine MC, applying 12 minutes
Tr Pluto con Venus, sep.
Tr Sat opp Neptune
Tr Uranus trine Vertex, applying 21 minutes (natal vertex in 8th)
Tr Chiron opp Vertex, applying 2 minutes

All the elements are there - hopelessness, despair, karmic aspects, emphasis on transformation. Only thing missing is the trigger aspect for violence - no real Mars/Uranus violent aspect. Closest is a transiting Saturn sq Mars, which may actually have prevented the violence rather than trigger it.

It would seem then that maybe several elements are needed: major Neptune transits that create confusion, despair, hopelessness. Karmic aspects that emphasize transformation (Pluto, Node, vertex, 8th house). And finally, a trigger for violence, the willingness to kill (even the self), which would require some sort of hard aspect with Mars, Uranus, or Chiron possibly.

[Kingsley]

Depending on other factors the midpoint mars/saturn= pluto is a very good indicator for suicide. I think in the case of the Rick Berry chart, transitting pluto is at the natal mars/saturn mispoint.

I agree there has to be some kind of intent or active planetary configuration. It also takes some organizing and rational thinking to carry out a sucide. Many people think about being dead (killing self) however do not necessarily follow through. Its normal to think about suicide. Therefore at some point in time one may be thinking about suicide more than usual.

If you find that a persons 'coping' or survival configurations in the chart are being disturbed by aspect or prog enough, the person will be vulnerable to thinking about suicide or even doing the act. In suicidal intervention programs in prison and in the community it is very hard to identify. Sometimes the person gives no warning as to the nature of their feelings and intent. They just do it!

What comes along astrologically 'overwhelming' for some, only spurs them on to survive and achieve, others might crumble in the pressure. In that case it would pay to know the chart and person very well to make any forcasts about suicide. Sometimes its more interesting to view the charts after the fact and see where the significators to suicide lay. It would be a tough call to predict however more sensible to check in with the person and raise your concerns in some way to the person at risk of suiciding.

I always say to sucidal clients, "how can I help you if you are dead" when loosley working with No Suicide Contracts.

kingsley

[Nexus7]

Vichy 91

I hope you can resolve the difficult feelings you are dealing with. If you are dealing with Neptune-Sun issues and feel disppointed, betrayed or let down in any truly major way, I can only suggest that you try to look at why these things have got to you so much, rather than at the actual disappointments themselves. I mean, why there is the vulnerability there in the first place.

So Neptune transits to Sun can be tough and I think it is because Neptune can be so 'good' at sabotaging the things the ego (in the sense of wanting to be noticed, appreciated, being lionised, those sort of goodies) may be craving most.

I am interested in suicide as a topic, not least because someone I once knew quite well committed suicide. He was born with a New Moon and jumped off a train at about the time of his Solar Return (another factor to consider - I have met my share of people who get depressed on their birthdays).

I think his ascendant was Leo, from the way he looked, Pluto was in Leo, though not on his Ascendant I think. Saturn would have been opposing his Pluto and I think he had a hard aspect from Mars to his Pluto. He certainly had Mercury, his Sun/Moon ruler on his South Node and one factor that most people felt when communicating with him was that he tended to talk too much, at people rather than to them. Maybe he had it in his 1st.

I think everyone felt so guilty because no-one recognised the red flags. I did actually though, because although he was being stoical and Strong about it all, he did bequeath me all his responsibilities (we were in an amateur theatre group and artist's group.) My Cancer-ruled 8th-House ruler was receiving a transit conjunct from Saturn, so the astrological symbolism was there too.

Didn't stop what happened from happening, though.

So there is a hint - watch what these people do, not what they say.

Oh, and that is another thing. I always regret now not having asked the guy directly if he was thinking of doing anything stupid rather than reminding him that the Samaritans was a 24-hour service, but on the other hand....I once had someone come to me for a reading after he was told by another astrologer that he would commit suicide by a certain date. Then later, someone told me that I might commit suicide in the future if I did not live more according to what she though my 'real' destiny in life was to be.

Let us just say I do not recommend the latter approach. But if there does come someone to your door with the transits discussed here and they do say they are depressed....it is probably worth checking.

[gaer]

This is a hard subject to talk about.

Some people who are rarely depressed for most of the their lives suddenly hit some huge "bump in the road" and are just gone. They suddenly give up, and they kills themselves before anyone has any idea that they are in such deep trouble.

Other people live with some form of depression all their lives, but they never reach the point of suicide, though they may think about it.

We can only help if we see warning signs, and that's a tricky thing in life, in general, and in astrology, in prediction.

Originally Posted by mdinaz

Someone close to me was preparing to commit suicide once. I was called late at night by this person crying and upset, which despite all they had gone through, I'd never seen them this upset before. So I immediately went over to the apartment. When I arrived the person was asleep on the couch, pistol in hand, the pistol loaded and hammer cocked. I was lucky I didn't shoot myself by accident while removing the gun from their hand. Looking at their chart at about the time of the incident I find:

Tr Neptune sq Moon, separating 2 degrees.
Tr Neptune sq ASC, applying 1 degree
Tr Node opp Sun applying 17 minutes
Tr Pluto trine MC, applying 12 minutes
Tr Pluto con Venus, sep.
Tr Sat opp Neptune
Tr Uranus trine Vertex, applying 21 minutes (natal vertex in 8th)
Tr Chiron opp Vertex, applying 2 minutes

I think Neptune transits are horribly difficult when hard. For one thing, they last a long time. At present I have tr Neptune square natal Mars and opposite Pluto. Natally I have Neptune conjunct both Sun and Moon.

Difficult Neptune aspects, natally or by transit, can erode confidence easily. Transits seem to mark times when we are hit by challenges, pains and disappointments that we don't understand. Where are they coming from? I think the Neptune transits you mentioned at least go a long ways towards explaining a very "down period", and any number of other factors could have been the trigger that set off the act.

So sad.

It's good that you were there to intervene. How is this person now?

Gaer

[mdinaz]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

I once had someone come to me for a reading after he was told by another astrologer that he would commit suicide by a certain date. Then later, someone told me that I might commit suicide in the future if I did not live more according to what she though my 'real' destiny in life was to be.

For an astrologer to say such a thing, I think would be criminally negligent, not to mention incredibly stupid. Such a person would definitely now have a seed or belief implanted in them that they may not have had. There are NEVER any absolutes or events etched into stone. They can always change.

[mdinaz]

Originally Posted by gaer

I think Neptune transits are horribly difficult when hard. For one thing, they last a long time. At present I have tr Neptune square natal Mars and opposite Pluto. Natally I have Neptune conjunct both Sun and Moon.

Difficult Neptune aspects, natally or by transit, can erode confidence easily. Transits seem to mark times when we are hit by challenges, pains and disappointments that we don't understand. Where are they coming from? I think the Neptune transits you mentioned at least go a long ways towards explaining a very "down period", and any number of other factors could have been the trigger that set off the act.
It's good that you were there to intervene. How is this person now?

Gaer

I've had Neptune trine the Sun but square the ASC for some time as well. There were some days that were incredibly difficult. But you persevere. What else can you do?

As for the other person, things seem to be going very well. I stayed involved with them as long as possible until the bad transits wore off. They did descend into alcohol for a time, but quite honestly, I found that preferable than the alternative. In the meantime the gun went home with me and I kept it for several years. They eventually got it back and have since sold it.

[gaer]

Originally Posted by mdinaz

I've had Neptune trine the Sun but square the ASC for some time as well. There were some days that were incredibly difficult. But you persevere. What else can you do?

Persevering is a lot. Sometimes it is huge!

As for the other person, things seem to be going very well. I stayed involved with them as long as possible until the bad transits wore off. They did descend into alcohol for a time, but quite honestly, I found that preferable than the alternative.

In the meantime the gun went home with me and I kept it for several years. They eventually got it back and have since sold it.

I would say that' as close to a happy ending as you can hope for after what had gone before.

Gaer

[Liquid Green]

not sure if this is any help to this subject but apparently australia has the highest rate of suicide of young people in the world! (i am guessing 16-25 years) perhaps someone familiar with astrocartography could help with the reasons why australia is a biggy in suicide deaths.

[gaer]

Originally Posted by Liquid Green

not sure if this is any help to this subject but apparently australia has the highest rate of suicide of young people in the world! (i am guessing 16-25 years) perhaps someone familiar with astrocartography could help with the reasons why australia is a biggy in suicide deaths.

Hmm. I wonder why?

I find that shocking.

[Kingsley]

Not sure one could approach astrocartography in that way Liquid. Unless that is we amassed all the birthdates of suicidees and did their astro mapping. If there was a major phenomenon happening in Australia, the most likely place to investigate it would be the chart for australia.

We get about 2000 suicides per year in australia, 80% are men dying and the peak stats are for men between 24 and 32. Men are 4 times likely to suicide than women. The Northern Territory has the highest incidence of suicide.

cheers

kingsley

[Liquid Green]

thanks for your factual info Kingsley...........Just putting the idea out there.

australian chart hey? will look into it and perhaps take it to another thread.

Gaer...........sad hey?

[Natasha]

Hard Saturn aspects can be experianced as depression by some of us and we dont ask for this it just seems to happen
But underneath we can find ansers - seeking the quidance of a therapist is a great way to help us thru these times
The Therapist is like Charon the ferryman on the river styx who takes the souls across the river styx (the river of forgetfulness) into the unconscious.
This way we find how we can access the cause of the depression which prompts feelings of hopelessness.

We are being asked to transform in some way and resist thru fear or not knowing what to do but feeling the enormous unconscious inner pressure to transform.

Acessing these inner issues thru a guide (the therapist) will help to lead us to answers

[gaer]

Originally Posted by Natasha

Hard Saturn aspects can be experianced as depression by some of us and we dont ask for this it just seems to happen
But underneath we can find ansers - seeking the quidance of a therapist is a great way to help us thru these times.

I believe that we can't help other people understand really important challenges in life unless we have been through them ourselves.

Difficult Saturn aspects may show depression, sadness, heaviness, but I think they also show the potential to help other people through hard times.

There are always two sides to Saturn, just like any other planet.