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Old 07-23-2011, 05:05 PM
ClaudiusClaudianus ClaudiusClaudianus is offline
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The 12th house in relationship horaries

What does it mean when the quesited's signifier is in the 12th house, irrespective of whether it makes aspects to the querents'? Does it, by itself, indicate pure mental anguish?

For example, this guy whom I have a thing for, who knows this fact (we had a semi-falling out about it 2/3 months ago - proved by the square aspect between us which would not move for weeks!), and whom I have been casting horaries about (granted, with a very limited knowledge of the intricacies of the subject), regularly appears in the 12th. Sometimes he aspects my signifier favourably, other times not. Today I found out that he's been dating someone, yet there he is, still in the 12th. Can anyone help by shedding some light on this situation. The chart is given below.
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Last edited by ClaudiusClaudianus; 07-24-2011 at 06:31 AM. Reason: expred chart
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Old 07-23-2011, 06:41 PM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

It doesn't mean anything, per se. He is in his own 12th, your 6th. Both houses are cadent and suggest that the person is hidden from you or inaccessible.
Also, he is quite fine where he is being ruled and strong in Leo. The Sun has the ability to burn up pretty much anything around it. That includes things that the 6th or 12th house would rule naturally like sickness and secret enemies. But, your question was not about these things. So we would, of course, look to how the significators are meeting with each other and, in this chart, they don't.
However, Jupiter collects the light of both the Sun and the Moon and is friendly to both. This tells me that a mutual friend could help you patch things up if you really want to go there.

Blessings,

Anachiel
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Last edited by Anachiel; 07-23-2011 at 06:46 PM. Reason: collection of light
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Old 07-23-2011, 08:19 PM
Serendipity Serendipity is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

Hi, you will probably receive more replies if you offer your own interpretation of the chart. Also, it's not a good idea to ask regular horary questions on the same subject if not much has changed. The charts become muddier and less clear the more you ask.
Looks like he's been hiding the fact that he's dating someone which is why he'd be in his own 12th with Venus.
Anachiel, I don't believe there is a collection of light here. Usually that's reserved for the primary significators .. moon is secondary. Aside from that Jupiter is not in any of the Sun's dignities.
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:43 PM
ClaudiusClaudianus ClaudiusClaudianus is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

Thanks for the input so far...

@serendipity: I haven't offered an interpretation as I'm not particularly confident enough with horary yet, haha...

Is an aspect made by a co-significator not strong enough to provide any sort of action, then?

What do you consider to be a significant change in situation? I started casting horaries again after we saw each other at the opera for the first time in about 2/3 months... Things do seem to be somewhat different from how we left off...
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:51 PM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

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Originally Posted by Serendipity View Post
Anachiel, I don't believe there is a collection of light here. Usually that's reserved for the primary significators .. moon is secondary. Aside from that Jupiter is not in any of the Sun's dignities.
Secondary or not, it is still a significator! Also, this is a collection of light. The Sun is in the triplicity of Jupiter and Jupiter receives the Moon in her own exaltation and triplicity. Jupiter can thus act as a link to bring the two together.
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Last edited by Anachiel; 07-23-2011 at 09:57 PM. Reason: sun's triplicity ruler
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Old 07-23-2011, 11:19 PM
Serendipity Serendipity is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

Quote:
Lilly writes of collection (CA., p.126)

Matters are also brought to perfection, when as the two principall Significators doe not behold one another, but both cast their severall Aspects to a more weighty Planet then themselves, and they both receive him in some of their essential dignities; then shall that Planet who thus collects both their Lights, bring the thing demanded to perfection: which signifies no more in Art then this, that a Person somewhat interested in both parties and described and signified by that Planet, shall perform, effect and conclude the thing which otherwise could not be perfected: As many times you see two fall at variance, and of themselves cannot think of any way of accommodation, when suddenly a neighbour or friend accidentally reconciles all differences, to the content of both parties: And this is called Collection.

It's too bad the chart has expired.
Jupiter although in dignity of the moon (being in the sign of her exaltation) is not in any of the Sun's dignities. In Taurus the Sun doesn't have any.
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Old 07-24-2011, 12:30 AM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

"Aspects to a more weighty Planet then themselves, and they both receive him in some of their essential dignities..."

I agree with your points. However, understand that Lilly's use of English, especially when using the word 'reception' is ambiguous, to put it mildly. He used 'reception' in many ways in many different scenarios. Collection of Light, though seemingly straightforward, is not. To be brief, at first glance, Lilly seems to be stating that "they both" receive the weighter planet "in some of their essential dignities" (emphasis mine). This would appear to state that the two must be themselves dignified. We know this is not how 'reception' works from his other examples and descriptions.
So, what's the point? The point is that the planets have to have some affinity to each other; to be receptive and open to assisting each other for this to ideally work. Indeed, here the Sun is in the dignity of Jupiter so Jupiter would welcome the Sun. Jupiter is in the dignities of the Moon, so the Moon is receptive to Jupiter. Ideally, to many, we want the Moon in the dignity of Jupiter instead.
Lilly, al-Biruni and Dariot all have varying forms of Collection and it would appear that the 'reception' can, instead, also be dependent on whether the planets involved are natural enemies or friends.
Naturally, if the planets are naturally antagonistic to each other, like the Sun and Saturn, you would need a reception because these two are not naturally friendly to each other and have no natural desire to help each other. In this chart however, Jupiter and the Moon are naturally friends and would have no qualms in assisting each other anyway. They are even in the same house together so they symbolically appear to be close to begin with.
Also, it is important to understand that the Moon and Jupiter are/were in aspect, a conjunction, proving their connection already. In the absence of reception a major aspect is powerful enough to connect the two. Otherwise, the simple (fortunate) aspect between two significators would also require reception in order to perfect a chart and, we know that is not at all necessary.
Gah! you're right, it would be nice if the chart did not expire for view...
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Last edited by Anachiel; 07-24-2011 at 12:52 AM. Reason: aspects perfecting
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Old 07-24-2011, 02:54 AM
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serendipity View Post
It's too bad the chart has expired.
I would like to have seen it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serendipity View Post
Jupiter although in dignity of the moon (being in the sign of her exaltation) is not in any of the Sun's dignities. In Taurus the Sun doesn't have any.
If Jupiter rules the Ascendant and Sun is Cadent in Taurus, the Sun is is Nocturnal in a Feminine Sign/House and Out-of-Sect.

Since the 6th is his 12th, he might be hiding something or his intentions are exactly up the Code of Chivalry.

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Originally Posted by ClaudiusClaudianus View Post
I haven't offered an interpretation as I'm not particularly confident enough with horary yet, haha...
You'll never learn unless you do. Writing out your delineations is a form of rote learning and you learn faster.

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Originally Posted by ClaudiusClaudianus View Post
Is an aspect made by a co-significator not strong enough to provide any sort of action, then?
That depends on the strength and condition of the co-significator. Strong Planets have the will and power to act, weak Planets do not, or act slowly and reluctantly.

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Originally Posted by ClaudiusClaudianus View Post
What do you consider to be a significant change in situation? I started casting horaries again after we saw each other at the opera for the first time in about 2/3 months... Things do seem to be somewhat different from how we left off...
Well, maybe that is a sufficient amount of time. As you phrased it, I think many would get the impression you were casting charts daily (not good).

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Originally Posted by Serendipity View Post
I don't believe there is a collection of light here. Usually that's reserved for the primary significators .. moon is secondary. Aside from that Jupiter is not in any of the Sun's dignities.
Moon has a special status with Querent and probably co-significator is a better term to use than secondary significator.

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Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
It doesn't mean anything, per se.
Of course it does. Cadent Houses are House of Fear, among things and the 12th House is a House of inappropriate activity as well. You say the Sun is in Leo so that would rule out being Out-of-Sect or Peregrine, but Sun is Slow in Motion so Fear or Sorrow might be appropriate here. If Sun is in square or opposition to a Planet and not received by the that Planet, then Sun is Malefic, which would mean his intentions are not honorable and doesn't have Querent's best interest at heart.

I hate not being able to see the chart, okay, so just thinking here, Sun ingresses Leo, that would put Sun in an applying square to Jupiter around 7° Taurus or so, Sun is Below Horizon, Jupiter is Fire Sect Ruler, so Jupiter receives Sun by Triplicity. Okay, so Sun is not Malefic here.

That would bring us back to fear in the sense of sorrow, grief, loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
"Aspects to a more weighty Planet then themselves, and they both receive him in some of their essential dignities..."

I agree with your points. However, understand that Lilly's use of English, especially when using the word 'reception' is ambiguous, to put it mildly. He used 'reception' in many ways in many different scenarios. Collection of Light, though seemingly straightforward, is not. To be brief, at first glance, Lilly seems to be stating that "they both" receive the weighter planet "in some of their essential dignities" (emphasis mine). This would appear to state that the two must be themselves dignified. We know this is not how 'reception' works from his other examples and descriptions.
So, what's the point? The point is that the planets have to have some affinity to each other; to be receptive and open to assisting each other for this to ideally work. Indeed, here the Sun is in the dignity of Jupiter so Jupiter would welcome the Sun. Jupiter is in the dignities of the Moon, so the Moon is receptive to Jupiter. Ideally, to many, we want the Moon in the dignity of Jupiter instead.
Lilly, al-Biruni and Dariot all have varying forms of Collection and it would appear that the 'reception' can, instead, also be dependent on whether the planets involved are natural enemies or friends.
The Collector has to collect the light of the two Planets and receive their Natures and they do that through Reception which is the same as "pushing Nature." Al-Qabisi defined that as a Planet applying to its dispositor.

That would mean that Moon would have to be in the Dignity of Jupiter (Sign, Exaltation, Triplicity or Term).

Jupiter is Peregrine here and not inclined to do anything. That's why the Collector has to receive to the two Planets, because Jupiter would be say, "I will do this for you both."

If Jupiter did receive both, then what is Peregrine Jupiter? That would be someone from another country, a different ethnicity, culture, religion, socio-economic background or someone outside their social circle.

Since this is Night Chart, look at Pisces.
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Old 07-24-2011, 02:57 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

Along the lines of planetary friendship/enmity, note that according to Al-Biruni, Al-Kindi and Abu Mashar, this can change depending upon in what house the planets meet (relative to conjunction effects, and perhaps this can extend as well to the actual aspects as well, but this is more of a conjecture) So, 2 enemies meeting in certain houses will be = to neutrality, in other houses, to extreme enmity; 2 friends in certain houses might be maximum resonance, and yet 2 best friends meeting in other houses could be reduced to neutrality.
(Note: this concept of conditional friendship/enmity, which actually dates to Greco-Roman times, also is current in contemporary Vedic astrology)
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Old 07-24-2011, 06:46 AM
ClaudiusClaudianus ClaudiusClaudianus is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
If Jupiter did receive both, then what is Peregrine Jupiter? That would be someone from another country, a different ethnicity, culture, religion, socio-economic background or someone outside their social circle.

Since this is Night Chart, look at Pisces.

This would make sense, as we do both have a mutual friend from another country (and I suppose therefore culture as well)...

I have (hopefully) fixed the expired chart issue.
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Old 07-24-2011, 08:51 PM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

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Jupiter is Peregrine here and not inclined to do anything. That's why the Collector has to receive to the two Planets, because Jupiter would be say, "I will do this for you both."

If Jupiter did receive both, then what is Peregrine Jupiter? That would be someone from another country, a different ethnicity, culture, religion, socio-economic background or someone outside their social circle.

Since this is Night Chart, look at Pisces.
I do not see Jupiter as being peregrine. He has a strong mutual reception with Venus. Some would argue this...so be it. However, Jupiter, peregrine or not, would rule a foreigner, a student, etc. If Jupiter was peregrine it would moreso indicate a wanderer or rogue; not someone you could generally trust in this matter. Thus, I do not see Jupiter as peregrine.

The Moon and Jupiter so close in the chart also would indicate symbolically that the querent and the helpful person are also already close. They are in the same house.

Also, there are so many versions of the essential diginites that it becomes an arguable point whether everyone is in the right reception to begin with! Even Ptolemy's are not fully trusted.
I see Jupiter here as friendly to the Moon and willing to assist in this matter of bringing her and the Sun together. It is an acceptable form of Collection.
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Old 07-24-2011, 09:49 PM
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

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Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
I do not see Jupiter as being peregrine.
Jupiter is not in Sagittarius, Pisces or Cancer, not in his own Triplicity, not in his own Term and not in his own Decan. He's Peregrine.

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He has a strong mutual reception with Venus.
No, that's a sextile. That's weak mutual reception and it's by Sign/House.

That doesn't alter the fact that Jupiter is not in any of his dignities and still Peregrine. However, it does lessen and take away the evil, and a received Planet is able to bear its burdens easier.

Jupiter is a Benefic, and not impeded by any Planet, and in mutual reception by Sign/House with Venus, so Jupiter is a true pilgrim here. He is not malicious by any stretch of the imagination.

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Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
Some would argue this...so be it. However, Jupiter, peregrine or not, would rule a foreigner, a student, etc. If Jupiter was peregrine it would moreso indicate a wanderer or rogue; not someone you could generally trust in this matter. Thus, I do not see Jupiter as peregrine.
Jupiter would be a wanderer only if not in reception with any Planet and a rogue only if impeded.

Peregrine Planets are not inherently malicious (unless they are a Malefic in poor condition or they are made unfortunate), in spite of what Lily says.

A Peregrine Planet in square or opposition to a Malefic (or to Sun or Mercury), or in square or opposition to a Benefic and not received is malicious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
The Moon and Jupiter so close in the chart also would indicate symbolically that the querent and the helpful person are also already close. They are in the same house.
And given that Pisces is the 2nd House, it could literally be someone in their own household, a parent, sibling, room-mate. And they might work at a bank, or financial institution, or work in some licensed profession, like a law firm.

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Also, there are so many versions of the essential diginites that it becomes an arguable point whether everyone is in the right reception to begin with!
There aren't that many. There are the Egyptian, Ptolemaic, Lily's modified version of Ptolemy, and Bonatti's modified version of the Egyptian.

They aren't all that different. I mean we aren't talking about anything radical here. Ptolemy and Lily both give 7 degrees to Mercury in Aries, the Egyptians give 8 degrees.

Many of the disagreements are in the last degrees for the Malefics.

Lily gives 4 degrees to Mars in Taurus, the Egyptians give 3 degrees and Ptolemy gives 6 degrees.

There are a couple of major differences, Lily gives the first 6 degrees of Leo to Saturn, but the Egyptians and Ptolemy give those to Jupiter.

Ptolemy and Lily give the first degrees of Aquarius to Saturn, but the Egyptians give them to Mercury.

The other is Mercury/Venus in Libra.

Again, the differences are rather minor.

I used what I thought were Ptolemy's Pterms and they didn't work, so I said nasty things about Ptolemy and switched to Egyptian Terms, and then I found out I wasn't using Ptolemy's Pterms, I was using Lily's mucked up version of Ptolemy's Pterms and then I found a table of Ptolemy's Ptrue Pterms and started using those, and they worked much better.

You ought to consider the fact that the OP is a South African. The possibility that Jupiter could be someone of Dutch, British, Belgian, German, Polish, French or Portuguese origin, or one of several Indian ethnic groups, or a Zulu or Xhosa (and others) or Malaysian or Indonesian is very high, and that would be Peregrine Jupiter here.
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Old 07-24-2011, 10:01 PM
Serendipity Serendipity is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

ClaudiusClaudianus keep us posted on what happens. Good luck.
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Old 07-25-2011, 02:23 PM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

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Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
Jupiter is not in Sagittarius, Pisces or Cancer, not in his own Triplicity, not in his own Term and not in his own Decan. He's Peregrine.



No, that's a sextile. That's weak mutual reception and it's by Sign/House.
WTH! Yes Jupiter and Venus are in a strong mutual reception. Venus is in the exaltation of Jupiter and Jupiter is in the sign of Venus.
And, I already stated that it is an arguable point as some do not allow for a peregrine planet to be involved in mutual reception. Something I find ridiculous because of course a wanderer with no power would like some help and therefore be spared the peregrine status. Also, note that Lilly does allow this too in his essential dignities for the points of a planet.

We could argue the finer points of technique for a year and a day but the bottom line as Lilly wisely stated is, to "mix reason with Art". The OP has already stated she knows a person that is a third and, possibly, helpful party. Let's leave it at that and see what comes about. If they are helpful and willing then the Collection works. If not, then we'll take a closer look at your point.

Also there are three versions of the Ptolemaic digities, then the Chaldean, the Egyptian, Lilly's and then, we have Dorothean...I think that is quite plenty to scrabble about on..and on and on and on. Which is not my intention for this thread. Mine was, the querent needs help and Jupiter is helpful to the Moon. It is an acceptable Collection. period.

Finally, I already stated that Jupiter rules, among many types of people, foreigners which we have both covered in our various posts.
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Last edited by Anachiel; 07-25-2011 at 02:37 PM. Reason: Jupiter rules foreigners
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Old 07-25-2011, 10:40 PM
ClaudiusClaudianus ClaudiusClaudianus is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

Quote:
The OP has already stated she knows a person that is a third and, possibly, helpful party.
I'm a guy, actually (sorry about that ) And our mutual friend is Chilean.

Just a random question which is related to the whole situation (yes I know this discussion is strictly related to a horary, but it does lead up to the casting of the horary): How much does synastry have to play in things like this? Most computer-generated reports from the commercial astrology sites make the distinction between friend and lover. If, as traditional astrology says, nothing can happen without the potential for it in the chart (can't remember if this was restricted to nativities only), surely this distinction is irrelevant, the two people's nativities (and comparisons thereof) showing the types of energies and relations which one ought to expect, regardless of their actual status in real life? I ask this because for there seemed to be very mixed signals being sent during the period when we spent much time together... I assume this would be somewhere in the chart as well? See attached...

Nevertheless I shall keep you posted as to the outcome. Thanks for all your input.
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Old 08-06-2011, 02:59 PM
ClaudiusClaudianus ClaudiusClaudianus is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

Update:

So I met with our Chilean friend, who was quite supportive and understanding, if somewhat surprised at the situation. He did seem to express the desire for me to rejoin the group of friends, so I suppose that in that sense the collection did work out, but I have yet to find out what effects it has in the greater scheme of getting our friendship back on track.
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Old 08-07-2011, 05:26 PM
Serendipity Serendipity is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

Thanks for updating.
What was the original question regarding the horary?
If you 2 will end up in a relationship?
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Old 08-19-2011, 08:41 PM
ClaudiusClaudianus ClaudiusClaudianus is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

Sorry for lack of response - have been out of town with no Internet.

I think the question was something along the lines of will we reconcile (I seem to have overwritten it on AstroDienst for some reason). I've never actually asked whether there's hope for a relationship between us, and when I saw your post I decided to cast a chart again for that question (see attachment).

I'm Jupiter, peregrine in Taurus, and he's Mercury, retrograde and also peregrine in Leo. Interestingly enough, he's in his 12th again. There is a trine between us, and he's separated from Saturn who rules his 5th. Has he changed his mind about the person he's seeing? Does the fact that Mercury (being a fast planet) is retrograde indicate that he's coming back toward me (which would otherwise not happen were it in direct motion)?
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Old 08-20-2011, 12:42 AM
Serendipity Serendipity is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

Quote:
I'm Jupiter, peregrine in Taurus, and he's Mercury, retrograde and also peregrine in Leo. Interestingly enough, he's in his 12th again. There is a trine between us, and he's separated from Saturn who rules his 5th. Has he changed his mind about the person he's seeing? Does the fact that Mercury (being a fast planet) is retrograde indicate that he's coming back toward me (which would otherwise not happen were it in direct motion)?
The trine is not applying but in fact separating. Mercury will meet Jupiter again but by square and before they can meet up again Mercury will meet Sun Venus and Saturn. So that's kind of a no.
Moon is applying to the Sun by trine so this may be beneficial on some level.
Some people use the last aspect of the moon as a co-sig for querent and the next aspect for the quesited. In this case it would be Venus and the Sun which are conjunct. To be honest I am not sure how much weight this theory holds.
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Old 08-21-2011, 08:20 AM
ClaudiusClaudianus ClaudiusClaudianus is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

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Originally Posted by Serendipity View Post
Some people use the last aspect of the moon as a co-sig for querent and the next aspect for the quesited. In this case it would be Venus and the Sun which are conjunct. To be honest I am not sure how much weight this theory holds.
Hmm, yes, Dariot says: "In his [venditionibus, pacis tractationibus, conjugiis, & pluribus similibus] enim cum ascendente, eius domino, & Luna, miscendus est planeta, a quo separatur Luna. Planeta aut cui applicat Luna, rei de qua quaeritur cum aliis significatoribus suis supradictis dandus est. Additur etiam ipsis significatoribus planeta qui cum rei significatione, aliquid commune habet" (Ad Astrorum Judicia Facilis Introductio, 1557, p. 43), which translates as "For in these matters [sales, peace treaties, relationships, and many others similar to them] the planet from which the Moon separates should be mixed with the ascendant, its ruler and the Moon. Also, the planet to which the Moon applies should be given to the matter which is sought, along with its other significators mentioned above (i.e. in this case the ruler of the 7th). Added also to these significators is the planet which has something in common with the matter."

Perhaps the apparently conflicting testimonies reflect the complex and unclear nature of our relationship as it is?
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Old 08-26-2011, 08:12 PM
ClaudiusClaudianus ClaudiusClaudianus is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

Does anyone else have any comments regarding Dariot's suggestion and/or interpretations of the second chart?
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Old 08-29-2011, 02:35 PM
Opphiucan Opphiucan is offline
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Re: The 12th house in relationship horaries

I like this thread. I'm curious why I showed up (both moon and significator) in the twelfth for mine - Am I in denial or does he see MY mental anguish??? I love 12th house horary results...(weirdo 12th house leo moon here...). And actually, his sun is conjunct my moon...I dunno. The question was about whether or not I should reveal my feelings to him - when 12th house boggles show up I run now.

regarding the initial question - I've usually found that when the quesited shows up in 12 his intentions are to say the least - less than "chivalrous" as Bob Z had mentioned...a big red flag over and over again in numerous charts...

Good luck!

L
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