overcoming negative side of neptune

[tee_jay66]

Hi

Forgive me if Ive posted a similar question in the past.

I think it is my neptune in 12th opposing moon and squaring sun that are giving me the hardest problems in life.

I have a very shaky sense of self and my identity comes from what others tell me I am (neptune-sun)

Ive always been a loner and have struggled to make or keep friends. I have a deep sense of unworthiness and am self -conscious. When I make friends, after a while, when they get to know me, I know they wont like me because Im different. This usually is the case, and the friends I make either drift away, make excuses not to see me or prefer to be around other people.

Ive struggled with this complex for many years and dont know why people dont take a shine to me.

I think Im an excellent listener, have bags of empathy and am extremly sensitive, but unfortunately people see me having weaknesses or need to 'pull my self together'

I know Im anxious and a worrier.

I have worked as a careworker and have a heart for the hurting and downtrodden in society but unfortunately the pain that others have enters me deeply and I take it on and cant shake other people's pain off. Also because I have so much pain within me..I dont think this is a healthy option for me at this time. I have also had numerous pyschiatrists who diagnosed with a mood disorder, but Im wondering whether it is more likely to a neptune infliction.

I dont think healing others is right for me in this lifetime. I enjoy my northnode in 6th, gardening, baking and keeping a lovely comfy home....but this seems to be my only grip on sanity.
Also I cannot make any decisions as my head spins in confusion knowing what to do with my life and where to go. When i do make a decision, you can guarantee by the following day I will have changed my mind and the very idea of the decision horrifies me...hence my mind is in a constant fog. Actually I dont want to be part of life and society!!!..............can you see the turmoil :0

So when people tell me Im like this or that, I believe them and dont know who I am or who Im supposed to be.

I really want to accept myself for who I am, but 'what' am I accepting and who am I?

any ideas on overturning this neptune affliction?

[bittermoon]

Interesting chart. Lots of nice trines, and that t-square involving your luminaries and Neptune.

One of the first things I noticed was that Saturn squaring your Ascendant, which can make you feel very unworthy. Then your Moon opposing Neptune, which can definitely contribute to not being able to see what is real and what is not. It can make you overreact and if you're already suffering from low self-esteem, it's a double whammy.

I really do hope there's somebody else more experienced who will come along and contribute to the solution of this. It's gotta be in that North Node (your soul purpose) conjunct your Moon, of course. But I also think it's in using your chart ruler, Jupiter.

Can I ask you why you use the whole sign house system?

[Flowergirl]

Your moon is in stable, grounded Taurus. If I were you I'd let Neptune be and develop your lunar identity instead. I've got the Neptune/Sun Square too and find that trying to work at self-development when I'm in a fog is often self-defeating. Develop your moon in Taurus identity instead, by focusing on greater body awareness, grounding yourself in the world through the senses, enjoying Taurean things (quality food, beauty etc), will make life easier. You have a lot of water in your chart. Let it be and develop your earth qualities a bit.

Just my 2 cent's worth...

PS: I'm moon in Taurus too. Funny how we give others the advice we need to follow ourselves.

[tee_jay66]

hi
thanks for replying. I use whole house after a tip off from dr.Farr. Ive used equal which didnt seem like me alongside placidus.. Then I came across Koch which I thought was the better of the three.

When dr.farr helped me with something he told me to look at whole signs and everything fell into place involving moon, sun and neptune...all became clearer and felt right for me. thats what we are going on isin't it? what feels right?

If im wrong in my choice which system would you use? Placidus and equal give me more planets in the 7th and I instinctively know that isint like me at all.

Also my northnode in 6th is spot on. When i use the other systems they give me a NN in 4th or 5th....again, nothing like me at all

[bittermoon]

No, you're not wrong at all. I strongly believe that you should use the house system that is most fitting for you. I am currently looking at house systems other than Placidus that might actually be better fitting for myself. The whole signs system is one I just don't see very often other than in traditional/horary methods.

[tee_jay66]

Give it ago, you may just surprise yourself....it did me. Dr.Farr has some remarkable insights into using that system though I dont know where his thread is.

[tee_jay66]

Originally Posted by Flowergirl

Your moon is in stable, grounded Taurus. If I were you I'd let Neptune be and develop your lunar identity instead. I've got the Neptune/Sun Square too and find that trying to work at self-development when I'm in a fog is often self-defeating. Develop your moon in Taurus identity instead, by focusing on greater body awareness, grounding yourself in the world through the senses, enjoying Taurean things (quality food, beauty etc), will make life easier. You have a lot of water in your chart. Let it be and develop your earth qualities a bit.

Just my 2 cent's worth...

PS: I'm moon in Taurus too. Funny how we give others the advice we need to follow ourselves.

thanks flowergirl

It makes sense when you spell it out like that. I think Im too hard on myself and panic when I dont fit into society or other people's ideals of the sort of life I should be living...its then that I lose my sense of who I am.

I love gardening and getting my hands into the earth. ive discovered baking and I love tv, solitude and my pets........maybe weird for some huh!

I need to Accept Accept Accept......why wont it stay in my brain!!! Darn neptune

[bittermoon]

Kind of funny, just on the weekend I looked at my chart in whole sign system (after reading something about it, here). I haven't spent enough time on it to make the conclusion that it's more accurate for me than Placidus, what I've been using so far but I thought it was interesting that in whole signs, I have both Moon and Jupiter in the 9th, which seems just so very fitting as 9th house issues (especially long distance travel) have been playing a very prominent role in my life in recent years.

But this thread is not about me, it's about you. I still hope somebody with more experience and insights will come along as I can see the difficulties in your chart, but also so much easy energy at the same time.

[tee_jay66]

Originally Posted by bittermoon

Kind of funny, just on the weekend I looked at my chart in whole sign system (after reading something about it, here). I haven't spent enough time on it to make the conclusion that it's more accurate for me than Placidus, what I've been using so far but I thought it was interesting that in whole signs, I have both Moon and Jupiter in the 9th, which seems just so very fitting as 9th house issues (especially long distance travel) have been playing a very prominent role in my life in recent years.

But this thread is not about me, it's about you. I still hope somebody with more experience and insights will come along as I can see the difficulties in your chart, but also so much easy energy at the same time.

I felt the same when I first looked at whole signs, I never thought my sun could be a 9th house sun....always envisioned an 8th sun....but then it dawned on me all my love of different cultures especially india....it goes on. and faraway travel. My love of different religious and spiritual systems...it goes on.

then when I found the moon opposing neptune from 6th and 12th house axis everything fell into place as to my problems....also having NN in 6th made a lot more sense than a 5th NN which never made sense to me

[bittermoon]

"I think Im too hard on myself and panic when I dont fit into society or other people's ideals of the sort of life I should be living...its then that I lose my sense of who I am."

Sounds like a classic case of Sun square Neptune, indeed. You know Obama has one, too? There's some info here: Who is He? Obama's Sun-Neptune Square.

I think these Sun (and Moon) squares are very significant. I have a Sun square Uranus. For many years, when somewhat trying to fit in (without drowning) it dug up all the negative qualities. Erratic, unpredictable behaviour. Lots of negativity and rebellion. Once I started to embrace the square, I actually ended up using it to my advantage.

Almost all my friends are married with kids, have a dog and a minivan. That is pretty much what 'society' expects and makes you fit in... and there's me, traveling a lot, unattached, living in a slightly dodgy house with 2 people in their twenties (I'm almost 40), I started doing artsy things and design. And the more eccentric and unique (but not erratic) I appear, the more people seem to respond to it very positively. I am totally laughing at this (coming from a strict corporate background in finance). I have a very important client meeting tomorrow morning and am actually contemplating wearing something with gold sequins. And perhaps wear a Pulp Fiction wig

[lazarusx]

Originally Posted by bittermoon

"I think Im too hard on myself and panic when I dont fit into society or other people's ideals of the sort of life I should be living...its then that I lose my sense of who I am."

Sounds like a classic case of Sun square Neptune, indeed.

Yeah this stood out to me too, i have my Sun in Opposition to Neptune (As well as Saturn and Uranus) not only do i have no sense of who i am, i have extremely low self-esteem with that Saturn opposition.

I find it to be a tricky path to walk.. i find the hard aspects from Sun to Neptune to have enormous potential for spiritual development, because they do dissolve the sense of self.. when you get deep into spiritual practice you begin to realize the self is merely an illusion you created.. the downside is you tend to try and compensate for this lack of self by imitating others actions and taking on other identities which only creates more confusion.

I have a hard time with this too, for me it's a real push-pull scenario.. (opposition) the more i try to hold onto my sense of self, the more it dissolves.. i need to learn how to 'let go'.. but when everything you believe you are is been challenged, its difficult

Considering your Sun is in the 9th house of Travel, Philosophy and Religion/Spirituality and it's square to Neptune in the 12 house of the subconscious mind.. i imagine this would be particularly intense.

EDIT: I also to switched to whole sign's after dr. farr suggested it to someone.. it only shifts my Uranus and Venus a couple of degree's into the next house.. but it feels alot more accurate.

[Nexus7]

I think Im an excellent listener, have bags of empathy and am extremly sensitive, but unfortunately people see me having weaknesses or need to 'pull my self together'

Your Mars/Jupiter may have trines, but it is still in a somewhat 'unassertive' sign. How easy is it for you to assert yourself where necessary? Do you tend to bottle things up? Resentment maybe?

Your 12th House Neptune does, of course, fall on your South Node and you say that being empathetic and helpful does not seem to benefit you, whereas doing more North Node/Moon things does - so you already seem to have found part of the amswer.

I understand it is a Ketu thing to be very 'good' at what it does, but still feel this sense of dissatisfaction. It is as though the need may be to abegnate self-abegnation.And that with the South Node there can often be a lot of fear - in this case, perhpas it is the very sense that you 'have' to be some kind of Mother Teresa that may need some kind of rethinking, or updating.

What is your religious background, schooling in relation to spiritual precepts, if I may ask? And did your parents take care of you, or did you somehow have to take care of them?

What I mean is....if there is any kind of fear, or attachment, to 'being unselfish,' or there is a sense of duty about it all, or that your and other people's survival depend on your taking care of others - then this is not a 'real' choice. Once these things are let go, then maybe then, your energy may be freed up, alowing you to be yourself, just that bit more.

So I wonder if the problem is that you may feel that you 'should' be unselfish, empathetic and so on. If so, then perhaps, this is where the sense of beng drained of identity, understanding yourself may in part come from.

[Lin]

Were you emotionally abandoned in your childhood?
LIN

[Caro]

Im a late 60's babe too. my chart is similar to yours but not as many trines.
so lucky you or maybe not.....

what I mean it that all that lovely energy in water is leaving you open - in today's society and if you live in the 'big smoke' this can be a nightmare for a sensitive soul.

neptune is well placed in 12th if you do wish to continue healling work and that type of work with broken people. you must protect yourself.

I am currently working with crystals and find this awesome at keeping out '****'

these people may bleed you dry - and you cant let them.

crystals are a way of working with earth and grounding.

its good that you do all that earthy stuff too but find some tools that protect you and maybe take a break from helping others while you learn that discipline(if that is possible)

[MantisReligiosa]

tee_jay,

I used to be a lot like you most of my life(am 22 years old now) and I think a lot of what you describe sounds like Saturn in the 4th house issues.

Especially with your Saturn being in Pisces.

As much as I have tried to believe/use whole Sign, in light of recent statistics, I cannot ignore the fact that placidus works better.
I also have Saturn in the 4th, natally. I have it in Cap, conjunct Neptune, and Uranus..so it's similar to yours.

The 4th house shows not just your idea of an ideal physical home, or stuff like that, but it is also the base of who you are.
It represents early childhood, relationship with your parents, early life conditioning etc.

There is a great general article on astro.com about the meanings of the 4th house, and one particular senstence stayed with me, and it went something like "the 4th house shows what you see when you close your eyes"..meaning the deepest, darkest parts of you.
And Saturn in the 4th is a very emotionally heavy position.

read this: http://books.google.com/books?id=Skk...%204th&f=false

there is a page, page 244 that describes Saturn in Pisces, and the 4th. See if it rings a bell.

but the most comprehensive description for 4th house Saturn is this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=UiV...page&q&f=false

page 20.

[MantisReligiosa]

lol..I just realized you DID use whole signs, but, lucky for you(or not so lucky) your Saturn in in the 4th house, either way.

My Saturn-Uranus-Neptune stellium is in the 4th house only in Placidus, in whole sign they switch to the 5th. The 5th is actually quite fitting, as well, now that I think of it.

Saturn in the 4th shows a desire to acquire property? No way, don't have that. lol.

But, anyway, combinations between Saturn and Water, generally speaking, creates emotional pain. I have Saturn conjunct Neptune, tightly, and sesquisquare Moon.
I have suffered from depression for a long time.

[MantisReligiosa]

actually, I do have all of the issues described by Liz Greene, now that I re-read that post..family seemed cold and unloving, despite attempts to pamper me, materially.
Father was aggressive, alcoholic, emotionally distant. And I have hated men all my life..so, yep, pretty much spot on.

I also have 5th house in Cap..maybe that's why I can relate to both.

You might also look for the house where Cap is, to see if Saturn in that house matches a bit, as well.

[tee_jay66]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

Your Mars/Jupiter may have trines, but it is still in a somewhat 'unassertive' sign. How easy is it for you to assert yourself where necessary? Do you tend to bottle things up? Resentment maybe?

Your 12th House Neptune does, of course, fall on your South Node and you say that being empathetic and helpful does not seem to benefit you, whereas doing more North Node/Moon things does - so you already seem to have found part of the amswer.

I understand it is a Ketu thing to be very 'good' at what it does, but still feel this sense of dissatisfaction. It is as though the need may be to abegnate self-abegnation.And that with the South Node there can often be a lot of fear - in this case, perhpas it is the very sense that you 'have' to be some kind of Mother Teresa that may need some kind of rethinking, or updating.

What is your religious background, schooling in relation to spiritual precepts, if I may ask? And did your parents take care of you, or did you somehow have to take care of them?

What I mean is....if there is any kind of fear, or attachment, to 'being unselfish,' or there is a sense of duty about it all, or that your and other people's survival depend on your taking care of others - then this is not a 'real' choice. Once these things are let go, then maybe then, your energy may be freed up, alowing you to be yourself, just that bit more.

So I wonder if the problem is that you may feel that you 'should' be unselfish, empathetic and so on. If so, then perhaps, this is where the sense of beng drained of identity, understanding yourself may in part come from.

Hi Nexus

I had a not so good childhood....an abusive step father and a mum that just told me to stay out of the way.

Ive never had to look after others and always would have wished that someone would have needed me as I like to help the family. I was brought up to look after myself and not to ask for help....and no-one else in the family would ever ask for help. I feel quite useless.

Ive only ever looked after myself and my own interests and have become very self protective now and insular.

[tee_jay66]

Originally Posted by Lin

Were you emotionally abandoned in your childhood?
LIN

Yes, definately. I never knew my real father and had abusive step father. I was very afraid all through my childhood.

[Nexus7]

Ive never had to look after others and always would have wished that someone would have needed me as I like to help the family. I was brought up to look after myself and not to ask for help....and no-one else in the family would ever ask for help. I feel quite useless.

I had been thinking in terms of a sick or an alcoholic parent, or similar to expan why you have so often been a carer in life. But maybe pure neglect may lead to this path just as well.

[waybread]

I note that you've used whole sign houses. I think they give valid information, but I think Placidus or Koch would show a different side to you, if you have an accurate birth time. I note that your MC appears to be way over in your 12th house. A high northern latitude birth can skew your houses with unequal house systems, but usually not so much for England.

If your parents didn't give you a strong sense of dignity and self-worth when you were very young, blaming yourself for their shortcomings can stay with you for a long time. Neptune square sun can be one indicator, but you also have sun square moon. If not now, perhaps as a child you felt your mother should have done more to protect you from your stepfather.

Please just realize that there is nothing wrong with you. But by the same token, nobody else can give you self-esteem that you do not make an effort to develop within yourself.

As you look back on your life, see how much experience you have gained, and good you have accomplished.

Then focus on those things in your life that are life-affirming: are you a gardener? [moon in Taurus in the 6th] Can you develop a healthy sense of spirituality, in recognizing that God does not make mistakes (or the universe, if you are an atheist?) [Neptune in the 12th, sun in the 9th, well-aspected Jupiter]

With your sun in Leo, try to get some sunlight on your face every morning, even if the weather is bad--just get outside. You need the literal fire element in your life. In winter, light candles. in summer, get outside. Wear more gold jewelry. Do something nice for yourself--fresh flowers on your table need not be expensive. Take a bubble bath while you listen to your favourite music. Do things that make you laugh out loud. If you can afford to travel, visit the desert.

These may sound like so much sublimation, but something is starving in your life, and I believe it is your Leo nature. Time to let your inner lionness out of her den!

[tee_jay66]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

I had been thinking in terms of a sick or an alcoholic parent, or similar to expan why you have so often been a carer in life. But maybe pure neglect may lead to this path just as well.

no never had that. Ive raised my son alone..thats all

[tee_jay66]

Originally Posted by waybread

I note that you've used whole sign houses. I think they give valid information, but I think Placidus or Koch would show a different side to you, if you have an accurate birth time. I note that your MC appears to be way over in your 12th house. A high northern latitude birth can skew your houses with unequal house systems, but usually not so much for England.

If your parents didn't give you a strong sense of dignity and self-worth when you were very young, blaming yourself for their shortcomings can stay with you for a long time. Neptune square sun can be one indicator, but you also have sun square moon. If not now, perhaps as a child you felt your mother should have done more to protect you from your stepfather.

Please just realize that there is nothing wrong with you. But by the same token, nobody else can give you self-esteem that you do not make an effort to develop within yourself.

As you look back on your life, see how much experience you have gained, and good you have accomplished.

Then focus on those things in your life that are life-affirming: are you a gardener? [moon in Taurus in the 6th] Can you develop a healthy sense of spirituality, in recognizing that God does not make mistakes (or the universe, if you are an atheist?) [Neptune in the 12th, sun in the 9th, well-aspected Jupiter]

With your sun in Leo, try to get some sunlight on your face every morning, even if the weather is bad--just get outside. You need the literal fire element in your life. In winter, light candles. in summer, get outside. Wear more gold jewelry. Do something nice for yourself--fresh flowers on your table need not be expensive. Take a bubble bath while you listen to your favourite music. Do things that make you laugh out loud. If you can afford to travel, visit the desert.

These may sound like so much sublimation, but something is starving in your life, and I believe it is your Leo nature. Time to let your inner lionness out of her den!

thanks waybread, yes I really should get outside more and walk. I love gardening so its a start
thanks for your advice

[astrologer50]

Originally Posted by bittermoon

Interesting chart. Lots of nice trines, and that t-square involving your luminaries and Neptune.

One of the first things I noticed was that Saturn squaring your Ascendant, which can make you feel very unworthy. Then your Moon opposing Neptune, which can definitely contribute to not being able to see what is real and what is not. It can make you overreact and if you're already suffering from low self-esteem, it's a double whammy.

I really do hope there's somebody else more experienced who will come along and contribute to the solution of this. It's gotta be in that North Node (your soul purpose) conjunct your Moon, of course. But I also think it's in using your chart ruler, Jupiter.

Throughout the forums but mainly in natal astrology there are two main branches Placidus (unequal size houses) v Equal House (whereby each house is same size) but lots more……. For more information on these go here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_house_system#Equal_House
http://www.astrolozy.com/article19.asp
http://www.skyviewzone.com/birthinfoforms2/housesexplained.htm
For further research try here...
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3280&highlight=placidus+equal
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=638&highlight=house+system
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=152849#post152849
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=189223#post189223

It's only with study and research will you be able to assess where your planets are deposited and in which houses... thus see which 'glove fits'

Sun square Moon suggests divorced or divided parents and can be a hard one to integrate, but through time, experience and patience it will come...

Self-expression is blocked by emotional hangups or habit patterns that may be inherited or conditioned by past events. Family and domestic affairs keep you from developing the way you would like. The conditions in your early family environment may have caused difficulties in understanding and getting along with the opposite sex. In these relationships you can be too argumentative and defensive. You may need to get the chip off your shoulder sometimes. This aspect suggests a conflict between the ego and the emotions. There is a presence of tension between your outer and inner self

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/sunaspects.html#susmo

lack of planets in air element shows communication problems, either they don't talk enough or making sweeping statements without enough thought behind the words, just blurt things out. But again with experience and receiving comments on how you communicate will help you to rectify this

Lack of elements http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18077
http://www.astrology-numerology.com/elements.html
http://www.astrology.aryabhatt.com/Astrology_Elements.asp
http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/EmptyElement12.1.htm
http://www.astrologyclub.org/article.../inferior2.htm

having 5planets out of 10 in water element, shows someone highly intuitive, sensitive and emotional, probably overly so.

Now Saturn square Asc, will knock your confidence
Uranus Square Asc, will make you want to shock people and be erratic in responses.
Pluto in Square to Ascendant

You have a tremendous amount of power at your command and even you may not realize how easily others are affected by your "force field." If you seem to invite more than your share of conflicts, then perhaps you can choose to develop an awareness of your approach and tone it down a bit. You're definitely the kind of person people want on their team when winning is the objective. You won't, don't, can't quit until every option has been run through. You can become a potent agent for healing and forgiveness. Can you start with yourself? Regeneration is your gift.

http://www.skyviewzone.com/astrology/aspectspluto.htm

[astrologer50]

Currently T Neptune is conjuct Saturn and this can cause depression and withdrawal, hang in there as it won't last.

This can be a very difficult transit. Saturn represents the reality that we perceive due to our agnoia, but Neptune represents a different level of reality where paradoxes are common. This is a time when your beliefs may be questioned and found inadequate. As you become increasingly disoriented, you will probably question what is real and what is not. Often this transit coincides with a great disappointment that leads to disillusionment, self doubt and lack of self confidence.

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/transits/neptune-cj-saturn.html

Fear is also a common problem at this time, especially irrational fear with no obvious basis. Often it feels like the structures upon which you have built your life, and have come to depend on, are no longer dependable.
http://www.astrology-x-files.com/tra...cj-saturn.html