House Systems
- Thread starter Moog
- Start date
wilsontc
Staff member
many threads on house systems, to Moog
Moog,
You asked:
This is a hotly debated subject. There are many threads on this matter, if you take a look through the posts in the "Houses & cusps" forum for the words "house system" in the subject title.
Suggesting further research,
Tim
Moog,
You asked:
This is a hotly debated subject. There are many threads on this matter, if you take a look through the posts in the "Houses & cusps" forum for the words "house system" in the subject title.
Suggesting further research,
Tim
Moog
Well-known member
Re: many threads on house systems, to Moog
Thanks, I found a couple. Very interesting. I've been working with whole sign houses, and feel they are more accurate, not to say simple and elegant.
I had a look at your site Tim, very interesting, thank you!
Thanks, I found a couple. Very interesting. I've been working with whole sign houses, and feel they are more accurate, not to say simple and elegant.
I had a look at your site Tim, very interesting, thank you!
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Re: many threads on house systems, to Moog
I used Placidus from approximately 1963 through 1998, with good results. Then thanks to Robert Hand, I learned about Whole Sign; it SEEMED to make sense to me, so I tried it out. Since 1998 I have exclusievly used Whole Sign in all charts, regardless of type of chart; I believe I have obtained BETTER results from Whole Sign than the good results I got when I used Placidus, and now I am no longer bothered by what I always considered "unnatural" phenomena occasionally encountered in Placidus and all other quadrant house systems:, that is, intercepted signs and intercepted houses, which I have always felt are "contrary to Nature", as old Al-Biruni would have said (this is, of course, only MY opinion)
It is a largely unknown historical fact that jyotish (Vedic astrology) exclusively used the Whole Sign house system (like the Greco/Romans mostly did) up through the 8th century AD, when they switched to the closely-related Equal House system (which dominates Vedic astrology to this day) This was the same time (8th-9th centuries) when Whole Sign rather suddenly disappeared in the West, to be replaced by the Alchabitius (actually Rhetorius/Alchabitius) quadrant system...
I used Placidus from approximately 1963 through 1998, with good results. Then thanks to Robert Hand, I learned about Whole Sign; it SEEMED to make sense to me, so I tried it out. Since 1998 I have exclusievly used Whole Sign in all charts, regardless of type of chart; I believe I have obtained BETTER results from Whole Sign than the good results I got when I used Placidus, and now I am no longer bothered by what I always considered "unnatural" phenomena occasionally encountered in Placidus and all other quadrant house systems:, that is, intercepted signs and intercepted houses, which I have always felt are "contrary to Nature", as old Al-Biruni would have said (this is, of course, only MY opinion)
It is a largely unknown historical fact that jyotish (Vedic astrology) exclusively used the Whole Sign house system (like the Greco/Romans mostly did) up through the 8th century AD, when they switched to the closely-related Equal House system (which dominates Vedic astrology to this day) This was the same time (8th-9th centuries) when Whole Sign rather suddenly disappeared in the West, to be replaced by the Alchabitius (actually Rhetorius/Alchabitius) quadrant system...
astrologer50
Banned
I use Equal House system and am a modern astrologer. Lots of people that come into Astrology get their free charts calculated at www.astro.com and the default ‘house system’ used is Placidus and think that’s just the norm and all that there is……..BUT that is just the tip of the iceberg. You can change the default on astro.com in Extended Chart selection to Equal house and a few more.
Throughout the forums but mainly in natal astrology there are two main branches Placidus (unequal size houses) v Equal House (whereby each house is same size) but lots more……. For more information on these go here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_(astrology)#Description
http://www.astrolozy.com/article19.asp
http://www.skyviewzone.com/birthinfoforms2/housesexplained.htm
It's only with study and research will you be able to assess where your planets are deposited and in which houses... thus see which 'glove fits'
http://www.solsticepoint.com/astrologersmemorial/hone.html
http://www.skyviewzone.com/birthinfoforms2/housesexplained.htm
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z0nnE2IP7A4C&pg=PA167&dq=astrology+equal+house&as_brr=3&ei=i0iJS-PlGo3mygS89Nn8DQ&cd=2#v=onepage&q=astrology%20equal%20house&f=false
EQUAL HOUSES
“Another of the three most popular house systems is Equal houses which is just what its name implies. All the houses have the same degree on each cusp, and there are no interceptions. Equal house systems are especially useful for people born in the northernmost and southernmost latitudes, and this system is the most popular one in use outside of the United States.”
http://www.esotericapublications.com/art-eso-011.htm
“Equal house system is the only system that is erected in the plane of the Earths orbit. The zodiac is erected in the plane of the Earths orbit around the Sun which comprises of a 360 degree circle that surrounds the Earth. The mid-heaven is often more, or less than ninety degrees (three signs) from the ascendant, therefore it is not often placed on the tenth house cusp, but marked where it appears in the mid-heaven according to the latitude and longitude of birth. The mid-heaven is taken as an important point; it is the point of self-mastery.”
http://marianneohagan.com/house.htm
“The simplest approaches, the equal-house and whole-sign methods, merely require knowledge of the ascendant or ascending sign, and an equal division throughout the rest of the zodiac eliminates the need for any complicated calculations
Yet recent research into classical astrology has created a renewed interest in these simple techniques from a more scholarly perspective. The point of strength is that, regardless of the originating theory behind house division, in practice at least, classical astrologers tended to tie the houses to the signs, apparently concurring with Pelletier, who wrote in defence of the equal house method”
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob4.html
Throughout the forums but mainly in natal astrology there are two main branches Placidus (unequal size houses) v Equal House (whereby each house is same size) but lots more……. For more information on these go here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_(astrology)#Description
http://www.astrolozy.com/article19.asp
http://www.skyviewzone.com/birthinfoforms2/housesexplained.htm
It's only with study and research will you be able to assess where your planets are deposited and in which houses... thus see which 'glove fits'
http://www.solsticepoint.com/astrologersmemorial/hone.html
http://www.skyviewzone.com/birthinfoforms2/housesexplained.htm
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z0nnE2IP7A4C&pg=PA167&dq=astrology+equal+house&as_brr=3&ei=i0iJS-PlGo3mygS89Nn8DQ&cd=2#v=onepage&q=astrology%20equal%20house&f=false
EQUAL HOUSES
“Another of the three most popular house systems is Equal houses which is just what its name implies. All the houses have the same degree on each cusp, and there are no interceptions. Equal house systems are especially useful for people born in the northernmost and southernmost latitudes, and this system is the most popular one in use outside of the United States.”
http://www.esotericapublications.com/art-eso-011.htm
“Equal house system is the only system that is erected in the plane of the Earths orbit. The zodiac is erected in the plane of the Earths orbit around the Sun which comprises of a 360 degree circle that surrounds the Earth. The mid-heaven is often more, or less than ninety degrees (three signs) from the ascendant, therefore it is not often placed on the tenth house cusp, but marked where it appears in the mid-heaven according to the latitude and longitude of birth. The mid-heaven is taken as an important point; it is the point of self-mastery.”
http://marianneohagan.com/house.htm
“The simplest approaches, the equal-house and whole-sign methods, merely require knowledge of the ascendant or ascending sign, and an equal division throughout the rest of the zodiac eliminates the need for any complicated calculations
Yet recent research into classical astrology has created a renewed interest in these simple techniques from a more scholarly perspective. The point of strength is that, regardless of the originating theory behind house division, in practice at least, classical astrologers tended to tie the houses to the signs, apparently concurring with Pelletier, who wrote in defence of the equal house method”
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob4.html
DreamingTheSeas
Well-known member
The important for me is if i choose whole signs system in my daughter's chart i have a very different chart (to be honest it's better the whole signs chart).
BobZemco
Well-known member
That is not a reason to use a particular House System. You don't change House Systems just because you don't like the way the chart looks. In reality, it doesn't matter. A Planet is Cadent not because it's in the 3rd House, but because it's in the 3rd Sign from the Ascendant, so it doesn't really matter.
Whole Sign Houses will allow you to grasp the basic concepts a little faster.
And that is exactly how the ancients referred to placements, which is intrinsic to the whole sign house format: they used the term PLACE, meaning a sign; the third PLACE = the 3rd sign (from the ascendant) and so on; they did not start using "enclosure" terms for these PLACES (wrds such as templi-"temple", or domus-"house") until hundreds of years into the CE; in whole sign PLACE = the SIGN; and later the SIGN became known as the HOUSE.
This PLACE = SIGN concept is most clearly illustrated in Manilius ("Astronomica" 14 AD), Valens ("Anthology" 1st century AD) and Paulus Alexandrianus ("Late Classical Astrology", 358 AD)
This PLACE = SIGN concept is most clearly illustrated in Manilius ("Astronomica" 14 AD), Valens ("Anthology" 1st century AD) and Paulus Alexandrianus ("Late Classical Astrology", 358 AD)
Claire19
Well-known member
Re: many threads on house systems, to Moog
I also tend to use Whole houses and they do look balanced and even. However the exact time of birth has to be known for accuracy as it determines every house cusp and ruler which may or may not be right.
DreamingTheSeas
Well-known member
BobZemco,
No, i dint mean to choose a house just because its better for me. Now as you mentioned if i account signs i have the same results. I have some other questions, and if you wishi will be happy to answer me:
In YOUR opinion which (house) is mother and which is father? And do YOU consider Saturn (with Uranus) ruler of Aquarius?
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Interesting conversation. Though I must admit that it muddies the waters for a skeptic like me who is not only trying to learn astrology, but trying to figure out if it is a valid, useful science. (I mean no offense to those who are devout)
In my chart ...
Pluto is in the 2nd house in Equal, the 3rd house in Whole and Placidus.
Moon is in the 4th house in Whole and Equal, the 5th house in Placidus.
Neptune is in the 4th house in Equal, the 5th house in Whole and Placidus.
I guess I'll pick whichever chart gives me the best chance at having a wonderful future, successful career, and exciting love life. Of course, I'm kidding, but being new to astrology, I have no other basis for choosing the "right" chart.
J
In my chart ...
Pluto is in the 2nd house in Equal, the 3rd house in Whole and Placidus.
Moon is in the 4th house in Whole and Equal, the 5th house in Placidus.
Neptune is in the 4th house in Equal, the 5th house in Whole and Placidus.
I guess I'll pick whichever chart gives me the best chance at having a wonderful future, successful career, and exciting love life. Of course, I'm kidding, but being new to astrology, I have no other basis for choosing the "right" chart.
J
One way to begin investigating a field is to look at the original model (or the original hypotheses if your prefer) and then determining exactly what that original (foundational) model "does", ie, how well it "works"...following this point of view, then, an investgator would begin their critical study of the possible validity of the "astrological proposition" by using the original chart erection format, which, for Greek and Vedic astrology, was "sign/house", what we today refer to as the "whole sign house" format....
I'll mention this: the various 20th century critical studies of various aspects of the (Western) astrological proposition, have always used either Koch, Placidus or Regiomontanus chart erection formats (technically referred to as "quadrant" house systems) in their studies (I think a couple of these critical studies might have used Equal House, but I am not certain of this) NO CRITICAL STUDIES have ever used the original whole sign house format ("sign/house" format)...
I'll mention this: the various 20th century critical studies of various aspects of the (Western) astrological proposition, have always used either Koch, Placidus or Regiomontanus chart erection formats (technically referred to as "quadrant" house systems) in their studies (I think a couple of these critical studies might have used Equal House, but I am not certain of this) NO CRITICAL STUDIES have ever used the original whole sign house format ("sign/house" format)...
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I found several interesting sites talking about House Systems. One of the more interesting discussions is here:
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/009795.html
Several posters have listed many of the different systems, they way they are calculated, when they came about, who invented them, etc.
As a rank amateur who just this week learned her rising sign, I think I'll use the Whole House for its simplicity. After learning the basics, then I'll apply my knowledge to the other house systems to see what I discover.
J
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/009795.html
Several posters have listed many of the different systems, they way they are calculated, when they came about, who invented them, etc.
As a rank amateur who just this week learned her rising sign, I think I'll use the Whole House for its simplicity. After learning the basics, then I'll apply my knowledge to the other house systems to see what I discover.
J
astrologer50
Banned
In placidus house system, my stellium in taurus in 4th moves two whole houses into 2nd, which definately is NOT me
I havn't done enough study into house systems to really come to an informed decision on what to use, but in my chart.. between Placidus, Equal and Whole Signs... Uranus and Venus are the only two planets which shift house's and only by a couple of degree's.. so i tend to use Whole Signs.
byjove
Account Closed
Good debate on this touching in other threads, so I thought I'd take it here where it's better placed.
The latest idea as raised by others is that, with Placidus, at a certain point above and below the equator, we all have 'locked' and 'hidden' planets, which is something which doesn't occur to equator-children, which is totally unreasonable. I have to say the research for why Placidus became popular doesn't look great for it, neither.
I'll say this; just like A50 says she's found a stellium in her chart which is totally not her in Placidus, Whole Sign puts my Mars in the 12th, which according to most modern sources I've found, would have you believe one is a rabid dog, ready to blow like a volanoe, and hating people behind closed doors in the meantime.
So Placidus I struggle with because of interceptions (unexplained, and every Jack and Jill is adding their own twist on it now, it's like new art, what do YOU see???) it's historical back-up is debilitating, and while I respect Whole Sign's origins, we come to the 'we can't ditch every development in astrology SINCE the ancients vs let's ditch the modern lost ways and return to the old teachings' argument, and Whole Sign 12 Mars doesn't ring a bell, a whilstle or click with me, and newer findings suggest Equal may have been an improvement on Whole Sign by (don't shoot, don't shooot, Ptolemy??) rather than the 'simplistic' view some take on it, giving it in fact a hidden historical boost, and as Bob said, we can't pick the house systems which we like...
\rant
The latest idea as raised by others is that, with Placidus, at a certain point above and below the equator, we all have 'locked' and 'hidden' planets, which is something which doesn't occur to equator-children, which is totally unreasonable. I have to say the research for why Placidus became popular doesn't look great for it, neither.
I'll say this; just like A50 says she's found a stellium in her chart which is totally not her in Placidus, Whole Sign puts my Mars in the 12th, which according to most modern sources I've found, would have you believe one is a rabid dog, ready to blow like a volanoe, and hating people behind closed doors in the meantime.
So Placidus I struggle with because of interceptions (unexplained, and every Jack and Jill is adding their own twist on it now, it's like new art, what do YOU see???) it's historical back-up is debilitating, and while I respect Whole Sign's origins, we come to the 'we can't ditch every development in astrology SINCE the ancients vs let's ditch the modern lost ways and return to the old teachings' argument, and Whole Sign 12 Mars doesn't ring a bell, a whilstle or click with me, and newer findings suggest Equal may have been an improvement on Whole Sign by (don't shoot, don't shooot, Ptolemy??) rather than the 'simplistic' view some take on it, giving it in fact a hidden historical boost, and as Bob said, we can't pick the house systems which we like...
\rant
LionLady
Well-known member
I'm about to put the proverbial feline among the avians!
I use Campanus.
When I first began to study the logic behind astrology, 30-odd years ago, I read and re-read everything I could find on the house systems. After doing that I concluded that the Campanus system best reflected the way I considered a horoscope should be constructed. Purely my opinion of course.
Many students of astrology are never taught about any systems outside the Equal House and Placidus ones, and so assume they must choost between the two.
The Wikipedia section is good. Also good, and more detailed historically, is a book called "The New Waite Compendium" on Astrology. It has been edited, revised and in some cases rewritten by several different authors/editors over the years, but for me it remains a good, brief, basic introduction to working with astrology.
I use Campanus.
When I first began to study the logic behind astrology, 30-odd years ago, I read and re-read everything I could find on the house systems. After doing that I concluded that the Campanus system best reflected the way I considered a horoscope should be constructed. Purely my opinion of course.
Many students of astrology are never taught about any systems outside the Equal House and Placidus ones, and so assume they must choost between the two.
The Wikipedia section is good. Also good, and more detailed historically, is a book called "The New Waite Compendium" on Astrology. It has been edited, revised and in some cases rewritten by several different authors/editors over the years, but for me it remains a good, brief, basic introduction to working with astrology.