Planet subtoning

Phil · #1 02-08-2011, 11:05 AM

How many of you use subtoning? (for example: A person with Moon in Virgo and Mercury in Sagittarius will have a Virgo moon with a Sagittarian subtone)

Just afraid the already high number of parameters increases even more...

dr. farr · #2 02-09-2011, 04:07 AM

Didn't know this was called "subtoning"! But, with my use of decans, duodenaries, monomoirion, dodekatemorion, fixed stars as channeling starry constellations, and so on, I guess that "subtoning" must play a huge role in the way I delineate, particularly regarding natal and SR charts!

Phil · #3 02-09-2011, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr. farr

Didn't know this was called "subtoning"! But, with my use of decans, duodenaries, monomoirion, dodekatemorion, fixed stars as channeling starry constellations, and so on, I guess that "subtoning" must play a huge role in the way I delineate, particularly regarding natal and SR charts!

Don't you end up with too many parameters to evaluate?

dr. farr · #4 02-09-2011, 06:18 AM

I don't necessarily use all of the subinfluences; but over the years I have gotten pretty good at "blending" things, making a synthesis of influences for a net effect.
However its not according to a mechanical formula or method: its what strikes you that you give more of an emphasis to than to other less striking factors.

I'll say this: for the first 10 years or so, its better to go simple than more complex: over the years one develops a knack for blending and synthesizing qualites, but it takes a long time (for most) to develop....

Phil · #5 02-09-2011, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr. farr

I don't necessarily use all of the subinfluences; but over the years I have gotten pretty good at "blending" things, making a synthesis of influences for a net effect.
However its not according to a mechanical formula or method: its what strikes you that you give more of an emphasis to than to other less striking factors.

I'll say this: for the first 10 years or so, its better to go simple than more complex: over the years one develops a knack for blending and synthesizing qualites, but it takes a long time (for most) to develop....

Agree. The approach for horoscope analysis is intuitive...

Phil · #6 02-10-2011, 12:42 PM

The term "subtoning" is used by Stephen Arroyo (for example in his book "Chart Interpretation Handbook". Still have not used it enough to make up my mind about it...

paneagle7 · #7 02-10-2011, 01:22 PM

Sun in Sagittarius Jupiter in aries is a subtone aries sun
Moon Gemini merc in Capricorn is a moon in Capricorn
Merc in Capricorn Saturn in libra is merc in libra
Venus in scorpio Pluto in leo venus in leo
Mars in libra venus in sco sub mars in scorpio
Jup in aries mars in libra sub jup in libra
60th harmonic sol sign Sol sun in Gemini (capellan) with sol mercury in aries sol sun in aries - the hero.

Yes these all are fitting.

the sub tone by houses is also useful. the sun in 4th house is like sun in cancer. sun in sagittarius like sun in 9th house as well.

One can also use mutual receptions as a form of sub-tone relations
I have afinger of god with 3 examples of mercury in capricorn AND moon in 10th house with venus in scorpio to jupiter in 8th in aries and rising (1st house cusp) virgo in aspect as well. this makes 3 mutual receptions.
the mutual sign involved is very important.

The importance of sub tones are increased when the planets are also in aspect to each other.

byjove · #8 02-10-2011, 01:45 PM

But, to some degree, are we just tying ourselves into a knot? How deep should that go? I've read astrologers saying the more experienced you get, the tighter the orbs you use for example. I finally see why, and I agree with the idea that the Sun, Moon and ASC typically account for as much as 60% of the personality. I've delved into some of these deep waters and just didn't see the usefulness.

Phil · #9 02-10-2011, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byjove

But, to some degree, are we just tying ourselves into a knot? How deep should that go? I've read astrologers saying the more experienced you get, the tighter the orbs you use for example. I finally see why, and I agree with the idea that the Sun, Moon and ASC typically account for as much as 60% of the personality. I've delved into some of these deep waters and just didn't see the usefulness.

Yes, Arroyo and Hand say that...

paneagle7 · #10 02-10-2011, 04:02 PM

[QUOTE=paneagle7;267020]
Agree exactness is a primary, and closer orbs and aspects yes.
I use 35% of orb chart choice in astro.com as modeling, thus in charts get fewer aspects but they are closer ones.

my Sun in Sagittarius Jupiter in aries is a subtone aries sun
Moon Gemini merc in Capricorn is a moon in Capricorn and sol tone is sun to aries - the hero sol sign. - thus I would seem to be aries like. have been grown up on sports, in a traditional old style family. it works.

By Jove - Jove is the sol planet for sol Jupiter (60th harmonic jupiter)

check sol signs at solastrology.blogspot.com
this is using the exact degree of a chart in the second degree as relative to the sun position to get the sol sign and degree (60th harmonic or second degree of arc). it is very much the inner part of a person. and with sun sign tells a great deal. this method is copyrighted, but one using the solar arcs method with sol arcs and the sun moon rising and sol sun will come up with a very accurate dimension of major life projections and key years.

'to the third star on the right'
best; the real pan

astrologer50 · #11 02-11-2011, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

How many of you use subtoning? (for example: A person with Moon in Virgo and Mercury in Sagittarius will have a Virgo moon with a Sagittarian subtone)

Just afraid the already high number of parameters increases even more...

YOu sound like you are talking about 'decanates' where a sign from 0-30' is split into three decanates of 0-10 etc. so in your example moon in virgo say at 12' would be virgo/capricorn decanate. as opposed to first being virgo/virgo and lastly virgo/taurus

Phil · #12 02-11-2011, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astrologer50

YOu sound like you are talking about 'decanates' where a sign from 0-30' is split into three decanates of 0-10 etc. so in your example moon in virgo say at 12' would be virgo/capricorn decanate. as opposed to first being virgo/virgo and lastly virgo/taurus

No, I am talking about what Arroyo refers to as "subtoning", that is to say: you take the ancient ruler of the sign in which the planet in question resides, then look in which sign it resides. This gives a subtone to the tone of the planet you are looking at.
For example: Moon in Saggitarius, and say that Jupiter is in Cancer, then the Saggitarian moon has a Cancer subtone...

dr. farr · #13 02-12-2011, 04:03 AM

Specifically this "subtoning" was well described by Vivian Robson (back in the 1930's) in his textbook on practical astrology; Robson (and other early Modernist authors) carried this further: in Phil's example, Moon in Sagittarius is disposited (that's what they used to call it) by Jupiter which is in Cancer: in the further extension of the concept, Robson would say that there is a relationsip between the Moon and the house its dispositor (Jupiter) is posited in so that the Sagittarian-modulated-by-Cancer Moon also has an affinity in the house in which its (the Moon's) dispositor, Jupiter, is placed (Robson's interesting books are available at astroamerica.com)

mirthyQ · #14 02-12-2011, 02:30 PM

In vedic asrtology this thing you call subtoning is taken very seriously. In the west everything is dissected and seperated but in the east things are more integrated and looked at from the whole.

For example a planet in its fall, let's say venus in scorpio, opposed to the moon in tauras (moon strong here) would all be seen as one thing - the venus would get stabilized by the moon in tauras (subtoned) and the moon would get subtoned by scorpio.

There is a dead ringer situation that comes up all the time that western astrologers usually miss. I don't remember the vedic word - something like mutual reception. When one planet is in the sign of another planet and that other planet is in the sign of this other planet. For example, let's take mars in libra (fall) and venus in aires (fall). They would be in mutual reception 'cause one planet is in the sign of the other planet. In cases like this the fall/detriment or exaltation labels go out the window. That venus gets energy from libra (strong) and that mars gets energy from aires (strong) so together they are strong even though in some text one might read otherwise.

The energies are so integrated with each other that they work together. On a soul level it represents a soul who has/is developing these energies and has done this in past lives, too. Western astrologers usually miss this. Other examples would be sun in aquarius and uranus in leo, moon in capricorn & saturn in cancer, jupiter in aires and mars in sagitarius, neptune in gemini and mercury in pisces, etc....

Because the moon, ascendant, and sun are so important this principal could be carried to these planets and position. So a taurus ascendent with venus in pisces is subtoned by neptune. And one with venus in aires is subtoned by mars. It is said that themes will start reoccurring in natal charts if one dives in deeply enough. The soul has karma and energy and can find expression for this energy in many ways to basically get the same energy out there.

Subtoning is very important and astrologers who can use a neptunian or sagitarrian intuitive mind can tune into this kind of thing, and try to "feel" for what the soul is trying to express.

waybread · #15 02-12-2011, 04:16 PM

Phil, I work a lot with "lords" or "accidental house cusp rulers." It doesn't go by the planet's sign specifically, but rather by the sign on the planet's house cusp. So a moon in Virgo might well have Virgo on the house cusp, in which case you would look at Mercury for more information about the moon's house. But in anything but the whole sign house system, you might get Leo on the house cusp and then you would look at the sun.

Then it's not Mercury's sign that would be so important as its own house position and aspects.

You can work with depositors either by planetary sign or house cusp rulers.

Of course decans and dwads provide further information.

I haven't tried thinking of "a moon in Virgo with a Sagittarian subtone" but my instinctive reaction is, "What the heck is that supposed to mean?"--in terms of actually interpreting somebody's chart. How would you read that in terms of what such a person would be like?

Mirthy Q, maybe I do think in very opposite terms to what you are suggesting! I think the danger in a lot of modern astrology is an anything-nothing approach to delineation. Meanings get so conflated that you could wind up with the moon in Virgo and Mercury in Sagittarius being interpreted the same way. If this happens, we lose information, rather than gaining information.

The bigger an astrologer's repertory, the better. Obviously we want to look at some charts in a lot of detail; and other charts, not so much.

Phil · #16 02-12-2011, 04:39 PM

Waybread,
Arroyo, in his book, "Chart Interpretation Handbook", gives the following example in respect to subtoning:

Taking Moon in Sagittarius with Jupiter in Virgo: Will result in the person trying to figure out why the emotions are so unwarrantedly optimistic, since Virgo sees a lot of problems.

As I said, I haven't really made up my mind. I have gotten good results just sticking to the traditional tools: planets in signs, planets in house, and aspects between the planets (only conjunction, opposition, square, sextile, trine). And of course, looking for repetitive themes and the impression of the overall chart configuration, element distribution, aspect patterns.

dr. farr · #17 02-13-2011, 02:09 AM

Phil is quite correct: what works for each individual, what gives INSIGHT to that individual, is what that individual should use. There are many techniques available: it is when we are looking for more than we can already do, that we should start experimenting with new methods and techniques which seem to make sense to each of us. Like Phil, I myself started with planets, signs and aspects between planets; but over the years, and because of the direction I took (decidedly toward astro-therapeutics moreso than natal delineation) I started to test and add other than basic methods and concepts, which has brought me to where I am today (very eclectic and with a quite unorthodox outlook) Everyone who is serious about this field (where its not only a hobby for the person) goes through a personal evolution in thinking and practice based on studies and practical experiences.

Phil · #18 02-13-2011, 06:42 AM

Yes, as Dr. Farr implies, horoscope interpretation is an intuitive art. It is like looking at a landscape, and then having various artists paint it: the styles will differ. With time, our style will evolve.

What we want to avoid is the "cookbook" approach, which is akin to painting a landscape "by the numbers", getting something artificial and cumbersome.

That is why I find computer-generated horoscopes of little value: lots of verbage, little actual content. But then the customer expects a certain number of pages to get his/her "money's worth"...

paneagle7 · #19 02-13-2011, 08:00 PM

A planet in a house also gives a subtone or mutual reception kind of reference - as sun in sagittarius in 4th is like a sun in cancer in 9th
but it may also be the subtone of the sun in 4th makes one like a cancer sun or has an affinity to it. example my wife the cancer and my sun in 4th house. her moon in 3rd house and my moon in gemini is a second which makes a subtone moon sun conjunct compatability which is a strength in any synastry. Even if her moon is square my own (there are emotional differences), there is also found this affinity.

One of the strongest but unknown to many astrologers is sol moon and sol sun (60th harmonic is the sol degree). This is evidenced in the Obama's, with sol in taurus (Prez. Obama) and sol moon (Luna) for Michelle. Another was of Yoko and John lennon. I have sol moon in aquarius, wife is a sol aquarian. It is a excellent use of higher octave synastry. (Soul mate harmonies - I call being a mate in sol)

Claire19 · #20 02-19-2011, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

How many of you use subtoning? (for example: A person with Moon in Virgo and Mercury in Sagittarius will have a Virgo moon with a Sagittarian subtone)

Just afraid the already high number of parameters increases even more...

I keep a complex subject as simple as possible and dont even use decans etc that have been quoted. Except with the rising sign perhaps and maybe Sun and Moon. It is a subtle influence only but can help with twins for instance.

I dont believe implicitly that Mercury is proper ruler of Virgo and have a problem right there... They are not in mutual reception and unless Moon and Mercury are in Square aspect there is no connection between the planets and it is not a merging one anyway. Sub toning I never heard of and what you propose does not adhere to astrological basic principles.

Claire19 · #21 02-19-2011, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paneagle7

A planet in a house also gives a subtone or mutual reception kind of reference - as sun in sagittarius in 4th is like a sun in cancer in 9th
but it may also be the subtone of the sun in 4th makes one like a cancer sun or has an affinity to it. example my wife the cancer and my sun in 4th house. her moon in 3rd house and my moon in gemini is a second which makes a subtone moon sun conjunct compatability which is a strength in any synastry. Even if her moon is square my own (there are emotional differences), there is also found this affinity.

One of the strongest but unknown to many astrologers is sol moon and sol sun (60th harmonic is the sol degree). This is evidenced in the Obama's, with sol in taurus (Prez. Obama) and sol moon (Luna) for Michelle. Another was of Yoko and John lennon. I have sol moon in aquarius, wife is a sol aquarian. It is a excellent use of higher octave synastry. (Soul mate harmonies - I call being a mate in sol)

I disagree with the sub toning hypothesis. It is not sound and is only confusing, such as you have quoted. Many make the mistake of taking aspects, planets etc out of context to the whole chart.... I am open to progressing astrologically in this new age but the principles remain the same, always. You will find that the compatibilities that you mention with the Obamas and the Lennons as well as your partner, will be found with other influences. Of course Moon conjunct Sun is always a good aspect to have..one of the strongest for relationship.... Who dreamed up this subtone thing??? and some have just run with it!!!..

..

Phil · #22 02-19-2011, 11:21 AM

Stephen Arroyo came up with "subtoning" as I described it. While a proponent of keeping things simple in chart analysis, he does believe in subtoning.

"Chart Interpretation Handbook" by Stephen Arroyo, page 172.

Arroyo is one of the best Astrologers around, with lots of experience. I brought up the topic, because I like his books and respect his work.

tikana · #23 02-19-2011, 11:41 AM

Phil

if you really want to get into subtone of the chart, read christian astrology volume 1 and 3. Skip 2nd volume because it is 100% horary.
you get to the bottom of the character.

Also midpoints are excellent at digging out the subtones esp when you involve MH and Asce points. I always look at Asce and MH esp when it comes to rectificaiton .. 1 deg off you can see the difference. I am not exactly sure how to read siamese twins cause usually they are born at the same time but have diff personality traits

study your chart by analyzing table of dignities on your chart.

Good Luck
T

tikana · #24 02-19-2011, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claire19

I disagree with the sub toning hypothesis. It is not sound and is only confusing, such as you have quoted. Many make the mistake of taking aspects, planets etc out of context to the whole chart.... I am open to progressing astrologically in this new age but the principles remain the same, always. You will find that the compatibilities that you mention with the Obamas and the Lennons as well as your partner, will be found with other influences. Of course Moon conjunct Sun is always a good aspect to have..one of the strongest for relationship.... Who dreamed up this subtone thing??? and some have just run with it!!!..

..

Claire

Can I disagree you on moon conj sun being good? It is NOT good at all.. because say Moon is in leo, Sun is in Leo .. guess what - not only Moon is burned (unseen by sun) but Moon is also lost because it has no dignity of its own.
Sun aquarius conj moon aquarius - really bad one - Sun is lost because of detriment, moon is peregrine -what is good in that
Sun and moon cnj in Libra esp after 15 deg in libra - YEAH right.. Sun is lost Moon is lost
Sun conj Moo in cancer - moon takes over .. sun cant control it - my mom has that
I have sun conj moon in scorpio - sun is in via combusta and moon just barely out of via combusta - HA! moon is the most difficult planet to dig in my chart - being born during total solar eclipse is not making matters any better
Sun conj Moon in Aries - moon in aries DOES NOT perform well at all! moon does not like firey signs. It can live in Sag somewhat but not in Leo nor Aries