How about this for a test?.......

[juicey J.]

Ok, here it is, get dozens if not even more people, get an accurate or as accurate as possible birth info. Survy them for personality, personal taste, personal religious and political view points as well as major life events and the dates of said events. Now, look at their charts. My theory is those with different sign placements (in the plaents as well as angles) will show a degree of difference, those with different house placements (using a set house system across the board) will show a degree of difference, and those with good handful or so of stress (square, oppostion, quincux) between each other's charts will show a degree of difference. My theory is those with lots of difference in sign and house placements as well as a good number of stress aspects to each others charts will show quite a bit of difference in personality, personal taste, personal beliefs, and perhaps in life experiences as well. I also, theorize time twins or even twins with the same sign and house placements across the board but with a handful or more of stress aspects will show more then a fair share of differences in personality, beliefs, and perhaps life experiences.

[juicey J.]

Also, statistically test if there is any commonality between people with the same aspects (sun square jupiter for example) or aspect patterns (t-square for example). Of course dozens upon dozens will have to be tested and the birth dates would have to be checked (using 2 or more sources). Maybe such tests could be refined with certain factors being isolated to check for statistical commonality.

[dr. farr]

I think this would be a good test!

[juicey J.]

Originally Posted by dr. farr

I think this would be a good test!

I think a data base and a research team (of astrologers and statistical researchers) would have to be created to collected and go over the data and see what common features there are in the test answers and see if they find anything similar at all in the charts and then get other test samples and see if they can find people with the same chart factors and see if they find the same commonalities. Also, they might have to get universities behind this to get test samples and help with data organization. It will likely take hundreds of charts to find something statistically significant. Also, like I said before finding and testing time twins and twins will be a big factor in this and comparing and contrasting the other tests to such will be a huge part of this.

[juicey J.]

Someone just informed me of a perfect place to get a data sample. In twinsberg, Ohio the first weekend in August there's a twin convention where over 2000 sets of twins participate every year. I don't have the time or money to go their and get people to sample with my test idea (wish i did) but someone out there has to have the time, money, and connections, there just has to be, as this is way to good a research opportunity for astrologers and researchers to pass up.

[Mark]

It is a good idea. The trouble is resources, as you've said. In order to derive any results that could be called representative of the population, we would need to test 1200+ people. That is the generally accepted threshold which will provide less than 2% variation between the test group and total population, assuming accurate sampling. That's a lot of number-crunching. Gathering data from 2,000 pairs of twins would be a wonderful way to test differences between people with almost identical charts. I would be willing to volunteer my work on this project, but, as you said, it would require whole teams of researchers, dedicating a good deal of time to it. I would be willing to be one of those, but we would need a lot of help!

[juicey J.]

We'll you see mark the inspiration for this idea was two things 1. The fallacy of thinking twins and time twins can be quite different and therefor astrology is bunk. 2. Tests where astrologers fail to match personality tests to a horoscope and the fallacy this proves astrology wrong.

Now, with twins there are other factors besides astrology also, I believe stress aspects between the twins charts (as well as in some cases a different rising and/or mc) might factor in these differences.

As for astrologers not being able to match horoscopes with personality tests the problem is there are like X 20 more personality and character varations in astrology as compared with standard personality tests and more then one horoscope would match with a particular general personality type, the question is does such horoscopes have on average a good number of the same sign, house, and aspect patterns and does the postive aspect patterns between said charts outweigh the stress aspects?
Also, this is why I think for such test other questionaries such as personal taste and belief have to be filled out.

The important thing is to not worry at first about finding strong statistical results but to create a data base as a cross refrence point.

[juicey J.]

Well the other problem with thinking astrologers not being able to match personality tests to horoscopes disproves astrology is its comparing apples to oranges since astrology analyzes and describes personality a bit differently and has way more varations. Still the question is will people with similar chart factors and with mainly postive aspects between them answer (doesn't matter if they are being fully honest or not) them at high rate of similarlity?

[Mark]

Sounds fun. How many people do we have who would work on the project? Volunteers?

[juicey J.]

The other thing to do for my little test/data base idea is to not only create a data base of twins and time twins as a control/refrence group but one which, compares males and females, especially those with identical or highly similar charts. Reason being is societial gender roles create varations in male and female life experiences and certain planets mean different things for males and females when it comes to sexuality, relationships, and biology.

[juicey J.]

Originally Posted by Mark

Sounds fun. How many people do we have who would work on the project? Volunteers?

We would need people who could get like two if not more large organizations such a university to participate.

[Mark]

Well, if you want to get this done, then perhaps the best way to start is to write up a concise list of questions for people to answer. We could use this thread to refine the parametres of the questions. I imagine it would take at least five whole-draft revisions to get something I'd be willing to call a useful questionnaire. Birth place, date, and time are obvious, and we could only use those questionnaires that could provide all three. Perhaps this thread should be used for drafting what should be asked next? After we have a questionnaire, we can think about how to get people to fill it out for us.

[juicey J.]

Well I'm not good at making out such questionaries. I think a standard personality test should be used. As for the personal taste and personal belief questionaire should we ask about politcal view points, view points on hot button issues like abortion and gay marriage? I even think even trival things like favorite genre of art and favorite band should be asked. I'm willing and open to suggestions but I'm not the best at the details. Also, we need the twin data base its an essential part of the test also, a good number of the people involved have to be astrologers or people with enough knowledge to know and understand basic chart and synastry theory. Patient I'm going to try to bring in some other people on board with this idea and will keep this line open.

[Mark]

Perhaps we could more easily start a list of questions by reading through a good list of keywords associated with each sign to find the contexts (areas) in which they differ. We could do the same for each planet. We could collect data about facial features, reactions to given situations, preferences for noise environment, and any number of other things. By identifying a list of contexts of variation like this, we can write a list of questions that will allow us to confirm or refute our existing ideas about the signs and planets.

Getting people to fill out the questionnaire would be the difficult part, but that is just logistics. If we have a viable tool to use (questionnaire), then I'm sure we will find some opportunity to implement it eventually. I have a website that could be used to host it and I could write the script to accumulate the information. The chartered purpose of my site is astrological research and development. I don't have the traffic to gather a lot of individuals, though, so they would have to be sent from somewhere else. Anyway, the first step clearly seems to be making a solid questionnaire.

We also must consider that a few individuals might want to intentionally skew the data just because they have too much time on their hands. So, in gathering individuals to provide data, we'll need to target a certain demographic and not leave lots of links to the questionnaire strewn about everywhere. If we create a good questionnaire and get everything ready for data collection, I could drop some emails to admins of sites like astro.com and a number of others to see if they would shoot me a link for a week or so in order to further astrological research. I wouldn't count on astro.com for cooperation, but there are many other such sites with large amounts of traffic from a narrow demographic that may be motivated to contribute.

If implemented in this way, the questionnaire would need to be more generalised. I would love to have a huge database of twin data as well, so we could write another questionnaire just for twins and then I could drop some emails to sites about twins to see if any of them would want to contribute to astrological research on themselves. All of this is doable. I would recommend starting with the general questionnaire, derived from expected contexts of variation between the signs and planets. If we do this, we will actually have data to say something about whether or not certain astrological assumptions are functionally correct.

[juicey J.]

Also, we need to create an identical twins vs ferternal twins data base as well as a twins of different gender vs twins of the same gender data base. Also, a time twins data base (which will be tricky to get) to compare and contrast results from the other twin data bases. I'm not joking about getting other people on board and I'm not talking regular joes off the street either, I'm crossing my fingers I will be able to get them to agree.

[juicey J.]

Also, we probly want to ask what their career is and what jobs they held. Also, what they majored in college, and what their favorite subject or subjects were in school. Also, ask them about what hobbies they have or had in the past.
Also, if differences between two person's don't really appear in the synastry between their charts we might want to check if there is lots of stress aspects in their composite charts, with twins for the most part the natal is the composite chart. But then again in order for any two people to be alike in my theory not only do they have to have planets and angles in the same signs but the synastry between them has to be postive and likely have to be of the same gender as well in order for them to really have a lot in common.
Someone is going to have to create or have a program to help organize and calculate this all, it won't be me. I will try to help as much as possible but I'm not a pro at either astrology or computers.

[juicey J.]

Here's another idea we should have a group of like 50+ twins and maybe even time twins (the horoscopes have to be almost identical for this)where we give a general reading and then give it to each twin seperatly and have them mark it and judge it on a scale for accuracy (marking specific passages for accuracy or lack thereof) and see if the twins give similar responses. It would be nice if even twins who are quite different else where give the same response to their general reading as this would give a case for basic natal astrology being accurate even if even just in general terms. Also, see if there is more similarity in said area between identical twins vs ferternal twins of the same gender vs those different gender vs time twins of the same gender vs those of different gender. .

[Mark]

One thing I would like to avoid is the focus that interpretation manuals often have on useless qualities. Things like hobbies might fall into that category. If I can know someone's hobbies and tell them about it, what good is it to anyone? Much of "modern astrology" has to do with things that can be predicted, but don't have much predictive value. Perhaps it's my psychological and philosophical persuasions speaking, but I would like to stick as close to useful data as possible. I would rather tell someone about conditions that conflict with their personal style of approach and so tell them how to adjust their style of approach. One should not adjust such things to individual circumstances. One should adjust one's approach to the Universe Itself. I want to help them make real progress, not just entertain them.

[juicey J.]

Yes but hobbies have to be accounted (on the personal questionaries more so then the readings) for because were looking for what they (twins and time twins) have in common. Yes, there are twins who have quite a bit of difference between them but my guess this often because of a different rising, different mc, or because there is lots of stress aspects between them. Also, if much of a general reading fits them and in similar ways (especially twins who little in common elsewhere) it will establish basic astrology works and if we can establish a astrological explanation why some twins and time twins personality/lives are quite different and strong statistical proof to back it up this will also be a victory for astrology. We are not talking about counseling here. Also, any reading should focus on what possible career, interests, and hobbies a person might have, as well as possible life pitfalls, but the key word is POSSIBLE, as often many placements have 2-5 main possible mainfestions. Astrology is often more possiblity not fate (unless certain warnings are not heeded).

[juicey J.]

I'm crossing my fingers that by next week I can get some of the people who I want interested in this, involved. Their involvement could be quite useful. I'm not promising anything. If I don't do anything to bring this about at least I released the idea into the universe.

[juicey J.]

I apperciate Mark for offering his help, it sounds like dr. farr is interested anyone else who wants to get involved I would apperciate it.

[FleetingDasein]

I've had the opportunity to connect with an astrological twin, and our lives were completely different, but deep down, we struggled with similar issues. I find astrological twins fascinating, so I'm very interested in conducting this type of research.

If you guys need help creating a survey, just pm the format, and I'll set it up. I think we should try to find some time twins (real or time twins) on the forum (at least 10 sets of twins) and conduct the survey.

Please keep me updated,
/FD

[Olivia]

Originally Posted by juicey J.

Also, statistically test if there is any commonality between people with the same aspects (sun square jupiter for example) or aspect patterns (t-square for example). Of course dozens upon dozens will have to be tested and the birth dates would have to be checked (using 2 or more sources). Maybe such tests could be refined with certain factors being isolated to check for statistical commonality.

But it isn't going to work. There's a huge difference between a received square - in this case Aries to Cancer, and an irreceptive square - Libra to Capricorn.

Is it a day chart or a night chart?

Is either the Sun or Jupiter besieged? Which houses are they in, and which do they rule?

Are they in aspect to other planets?

And any number of other variables.

You could concentrate on something like determining temperament (Lilly or Bonatti style, perhaps?), as neuroscientists are now calling it 'seasonal biology but definitely not astrology' - only astrologers used some of the same formulas (the season you were born in counts heavily towards temperament and has done for many, many centuries - we're going back to Aristotelean philosophy here). But astrology does have the jump on neuroscience in that regard, as we also use moon phase, planets in or aspecting the ascendant, the chart almuten, etc., to describe temperament, which is both physiological, and for want of a better term - psychological.

You can look up the studies on neuroscience and temperament by birth season, so you can see where they've got with it.

That might prove fruitful. It's a reasonably standard measuring technique within astrology, and whilst it cuts fine enough to give definite results, it doesn't cut so fine as trying to sort out what an aspect in isolation means. And you've got the advantages that it's standardised, and something that science is looking into now.

The societal and especially corporate misuses possible - pretty much inevitable - if it's proved true are terrifying, but if you want to do this, that's probably as good a starting point as any.

[Mark]

All of those variables mentioned can be handled by collecting the specific date, time, and place of birth for every individual, so that nothing is studied in isolation. As long as we have the ability to see the whole chart of every person involved, we have the ability to draw astrological distinctions. It is definitely a good thing to consider, but it doesn't need to interfere with the collection of data. Also, I think those in power who would misuse astrology are already doing so. It is thus to their advantage that no one else gets to use it as well as they do. They don't have to make it illegal. They only have to make it a joke. That's why Rush Limbaugh has a job. Make something into a joke and people stop taking it seriously, even if it is crucially important!

[juicey J.]

If anyone thinks what Mark is speaking of is pure conspiracy theory with no facts or examples to back it up, YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR HISTORY!!!!!!!