12th house

dna · #1 10-11-2006, 08:45 PM

I had always seen the 12th house as the subconscious...what is underneath...even the spirit in a way....I had a mentor for a few years and he told me to forget what i knew of the 12th house and see it as the house of the mind and also to look at the planets in this house to see what the parents took away- It makes sense to me but I also think it is more...(i still see the subconsious and intuition along with the parental issues) Im wanting to see how other people see the 12th house- what do you think of when you look at the 12th house?

Francesca · #2 10-11-2006, 09:26 PM

The concept that this house contains what the parents took away is new to me, but it rings true in some senses.

I have Saturn/Pluto in leo conjunct in the 12th,both sextile to Neptune and Mars and square to Jupiter.

I have always been connected in some way to institutions, as would be expected, I guess.I worked as a social worker in many institutions here in NY State. I suffer from depression and arthritis. Now I work as a lawyer in Family Court which is certainly an institution of sorts.

But primarily, I think of this area where truths about ourselves "hide in plain sight", things that it may take years of living before we can appreciate or acknowledge about ourselves. At least it has proved for me. What about others?

laliqueviolin · #3 10-11-2006, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Further, according to Dr. Karen Hamaker-Zondag, the 12th house may also likely refer to events and emotions that we experienced while still in our mother's womb and/or during the first year or so of our life. These are experiences which occurred so early in life that we're virtually unable to consciously remember them happening. But the images and emotions connected with 12th house events remain active within our psyche and continue to unconsciously effect us in everyday life and in our relationships with other people.

The 12th house may also have connections with "family life issues" or "gifts" that our parents (and perhaps our parents' parents) were given... but they refused or were emotionally unable to give expression to and/or resolve these "family life issues during their own lifetime. And now it's been left up to the child (you) to experience and resolve these energies for the parents. The effects and results (i.e. the baggage) of the 12th house may in some ways seem very similar to the experiences of the 8th house (which is discussed in another section of this Web Site). But the 12th house experiences took place and were formed at a time so early in our development that we were not able to be active participants in the events.

Soaking it all up...
As very young children, we were literally "psychic sponges" actively soaking up the images, emotions, and events in our environment. Thus... the 12th house irrational feelings and fears we're left with as adults are often quite vague, unclear, and "foggy." We're never able to put our finger on and/or pinpoint the source of these irrational feelings and fears. As a result, our 12th house feelings and fears may likely leave us with the uneasy feeling of somehow being "victimized" and "violated" by life without ever knowing just exactly why.

To target 12th house issues active in your life? Look first for any planets located in the 12th house. Also look for the planetary ruler of the 12th house and any planets which aspect the planetary ruler. For example, if your birth chart Moon is located in the 12th house - then look for experiences and needs surrounding the issues of emotional security, the need for nurturing, and possible crippling, irrational fears of abandonment.

Here is more info on that:

http://thezodiac.com/12thhouse.htm

lilllybelle · #4 10-12-2006, 01:49 AM

The 12th house is a hard house to define. My saturn is in the 12th natally and currently it is transiting through my 12th house. I've experienced deep fear that I have a hard time understanding. It's almost like fear without reason. I initially felt a strong softening of my ego with saturn moving through the 12th. I still have a hard time explaining the 12th house. L.

Howl · #5 10-12-2006, 01:54 AM

I'm really struggling with the idea of a 12H sun. How do you hide your "self" in plain sight? Especially if your "self" is something as ambitious and structured as Capricorn?! Could it indicate, amongst other things, someone who is hesitant about thier own abilities?

With nothing natally in the 12H, I struggle to "get" 12H placements.

dna · #6 10-12-2006, 02:10 AM

My saturn is in my 12th as well as jupiter and the moon.... I dont know what to make of it either. I do see the how it could represent what the parents took from you or couldn't give to you- Ive seen that in quite a few charts but I know there is more to the 12th......As far as the sun....??? could that represent a strong interest in spiritual side of life-the occult(which i know is often found in the 8th-but...)?And your personality somehow based on that?
I am wondering if maybe the things unseen or hidden could represent spirituality-intuition- faith? They're whats underneath it all right? A persons intuition isn't a conscious thing- Its in the subconcious and faith is well,faith. Spiritual-unseen-intuitive. Instead of the 12th house being mental- wouldn't that be fund more with mercury and the third and elsewhere? Is this stretching or ????? what do you think?

Howl · #7 10-12-2006, 02:20 AM

Hmm, yes the person I am thinking of has a very limited interest in the occult. He is rather the "realist" - being a Capricorn, this makes sense. I would be tempted to suggest "occult attunement" as a 12H Sun interpretation, but it isn't (apparently - unless he keeps it VERY well hidden) true for him. The only other 12H Cappie Sun I have come across is Lapis, and she is highly attuned to spiritual realities

. I'm trying to think of what other ways 12H Sun could manifest. He HAS intuition, but it isn't an overriding aspect of his personality. I might give up and assume that he has provided an inaccurate birth time!!!

The most 12H thing that I have ever heard him say is that he would like to comment on, and influence, social culture and people's subconsciously accepted thoughts. This could easily translate to the "collective unconscious", one interpretation of the 12H. Perhaps it is his purpose in life (Sun) to show people what they otherwise fail to see about themselves (12H)? To throw a realist light on our collective, unconscious thinking, or to insist that we are responsible for what we socially promote?

dna · #8 10-12-2006, 02:24 AM

What about his parents? were they unable to prvide him the stability he needed? or .....what aspects does his sun make?

Howl · #9 10-12-2006, 02:31 AM

Ahh, hello there. He had a stable family to the age of 18, when his parents divorced (reasonably amicably). He hasn't suggested any lack of love or support from his parents, and I haven't observed anything obvious. His Sun sextiles 11H Scorpio Saturn, it's only traditional aspect. If you count "dissociate" aspects, it also sextiles Libra Pluto. Here's his chart

Thanks for your interest!

dna · #10 10-12-2006, 02:45 AM

Well I don't know!

I'd say- of course he'd be a realist with cap rising and merc and venus together there in the first house- and even though mars is in aqua its there in his 2nd house which shows finacncial stability will be somethings important to him- but as far as the 12th house- im clueless- maybe someone will clue us in

haha Im expecting someone to tell me somethign about this house that will just click but maybe for some people it is whats hidden- like in say your friends case- maybe he doesn't show his true self to people until he feels really comfortable with them.... maybe he keeps his true self hidden from others not himself- then maybe the 12th means spiritual for so and so and parental issues for someone else depending on the rest of the chart,the planets and aspects in that house????

Howl · #11 10-12-2006, 02:52 AM

Heheh, if people keep their 12H stuff hidden even from THEMSELVES, what chance have I got to interpret it?!

laliqueviolin · #12 10-12-2006, 03:19 AM

I may be off, but Saturn in 12th house could signify the parent who at the time may have had trouble with responsibility during the pregnancy. Jobs, career sacrifices, chronic health problems(Saturn = bones, old age, crystallization), fears of being chained to a responsibility or even commitment, I don't know, the list goes on... I notice many people with Libra in 12th have parents who were split up or couldn't stay together for one reason or another. Thus, relationships of any kind are very hard in this lifetime and thus, the native often makes up a great deal to heal the wound. The native has that lesson or gift to keep this intact in their future relationships, or come to grips that sometimes they are found alone or feeling very lonely, unrecipocated. Possibly a fear of divorce, and no doubt being or dieing alone.

Sun in 12th house? Maybe the ego is denied. Usually someone who cannot stand up theirselves, usually wandering around being pushed by stronger personalities(1st house Suns?).

I always think gifts of the 12th house is a vast reservoir of spiritual, psychic knowledge or lessons learned/gained through the conditions we either imposed it on ourselves or we were limited upon in the first place. I think atonement is a good keyword to describe this house experience as well. You make up for something that you've been heavily denied, this is why sometimes spirituality is often found in this house... our experiences are not normal compared to others, sometimes illness or health difficulties or something equally difficult that keeps us in check, forces us to step aside and come to acceptance with such hardship.

Howl · #13 10-12-2006, 03:45 AM

Quote:

I think atonement is a good keyword to describe this house experience as well. You make up for something that you've been heavily denied

I like that. I don't have any planets in the 12H, but both Neptune and my natal 12H ruler are conjunct my Sun in the 6H. I've gone through experiences that weren't "normal compared to others" in the area of health and body, and developed an awareness and appreciation of my physical body that I otherwise wouldn't have. Thanks for your thoughts.

lilllybelle · #14 10-12-2006, 07:28 AM

I have a friend that has the sun, among a few other planets, in her 12th house in the sign of acquarius. Her moon is in capricorn. She is very introverted, disciplined and strong willed. She has a soft view toward others, but she never really forms close ties to other people. She says all people are meant to just pass through your life. She doesn't really mind if she never sees or hears from a person again. She spent most of her life working at a spiritual retreat center, where there was a very disciplined way of living. Even though she is into astrology and yoga, she goes about it in such a practical unemotional fashion that she seems very... I'm having a hard time describing it. She definately doesn't consider herself a newager. She loves humans but mainly from a distance. She travels a lot. She also has many many surprising secrets. She has a secret crush on this one guy, and she is quite content to never talk to him and just admire him, and only him, from a distance. Her way of living makes me sad, but I try to accept it. L.

lilllybelle · #15 10-12-2006, 07:40 AM

SS, Could you expand a little more on your thoughts about saturn in the 12th relating to relationships? Also were you saying that is a reality or just a fear of theirs that they will die alone? I'm hoping that I will eventually become skilled enough in relationships, with my saturn in the 12th, that I make one last for a lifetime. Currently though my track record is pretty bad. I'm still learning though. When I had my saturn return I spent a lot of time with groups of people and off by myself. I felt less alone when I was off by myself. In some ways I felt less alone than I ever had in my life. I think the ultimate karmic reward for my perticular saturn in the 12th would be to have my time alone on the mountain side but to also be surrounded by a large group of family and loved ones. Saturn in the 12th has so much lonliness to it. I hope very much to transcend that karma as I age. L.

wilsontc · #16 10-12-2006, 04:06 PM

dna,

Your instructor said:

Quote:

...the 12th house and see it as the house of the mind...

To me, this makes no sense. Mercury (thinking) is in FALL (very challenging energy) in the 12th house. All the holistic (attempting to see the chart as a "whole" rather than as separate, unrelated pieces) interpretations I have seen refer to the 12th house in some sort of "spiritual" sense, and they agree that things in the 12th house "dissolve" so that it can be VERY difficult for the person to see any energy their as "mine" or "theirs" and instead it becomes "ours".

This can be VERY confusing in the case of structured, disciplined Saturn energy which is always trying to create boundaries. Saturn in the 12th house finds all the "boundaries" it sets up dissolving back on themselves until it is almost impossible to decide what is "inside" and what is "outside". I LIKE your idea of the 12th house as the subconscious, and have heard this idea before. The 12th house contains those things that we ALL connect into (Jung called it the "archetypes") and makes us aware of those many interconnections of ourself to everything around us.

It is possible that your teacher meant this type of thing when he referred to the 12th house as the "house of the mind", but, to me, this is a VERY confusing to describe mind, which, by its nature, is clear, detailed, and very much wants "just the facts"...perhaps your teacher has his Mercury in the 12th house and that's why he insists on associating 12th house and mind!

Spiritually dissolved,

Tim

dna · #17 10-12-2006, 04:50 PM

Wilson- Thank you - I think your right about all you said above. I could never understand the 12th-mental connection..... And he didnt have merc in the 12 although it would have been fitting

hhahaa
Lilly-Can you describe more of your saturn return? My saturn is in libra so i still have a few years but I'd be very interested in how it was for you in leo in the 12th . You said you spent alot of time by yourself....Are you naturally a people person? Did this last the entire saturn transit through the 12? were there any aspects saturn made? (lots of questions-sorry

)

Nono(F) · #18 10-13-2006, 03:49 AM

Not a native speaker and not an expert so pls

I have a busy 12th: Moon, Saturn, Lilith and Chiron, all in Pisces, Aquarius on the Cusp, Ascending Aries. Trines from the 12 with Jupiter, Pluto, Neptune. Spare you the details on my life.

As most people with a busy 12th, I wondered a lot about its influence. A lot of vague assumptions exist around it. Think the easiest point to start from, is that the 12 houses represent the same stages as the 12 signs. First house corresponds with Aries: body, birth, beginning, first ecounters. Second house aligns with what Taurus stands for, security, food, possessions and so on, until arriving in the 12th. Which to my conclusion (both experience and reason) is the house of endings and one's most inner private life, higher inspiration, vulnerability, feelings and observations -> when we are alone.

Personally, I disagree with the 'self-undoing' and 'hidden' part that is always described in connection with the 12th, as if the 12th is per definition more of a barrier than anything else. 'Hidden' is more applicable to the 8th (Scorpio) and terms like 'self-undoing' would only apply to a very neglected 12th house. But seen from that persepective, any house could respresent one's undoing. More probable, a busy or 'difficult' 12th could intensify the EXPERIENCE of limitations, especially in connection with others, as the 12th is so private.

I feel it's a matter of how you look at it. If you look for symbiotic relationships (which to me seem unnatural and unhealthy anyway), an occupied 12th may always pull you back to responsibility for your own inner world and tell you where you prefer to keep wearing rose coloured glasses and follow that cuty to live happily ever after. Paradoxically (?), I find that most people with a busy 12th try to get away from their own reality, instead of connecting with that strength. It´s only human to feel lonely when you have to face things alone and ultimately, everyone wants to get away from struggle, whatever struggle that is. Generally, it seems we always think the grass is greener on the other side, but everyone gets their stuggle at some point, in whatever house. People with a heavy 12th have the struggle at home (inside) and there's no secret catch, we just need to work with the limitations we experience. Personally, I'd rather have what I'm up against close to me, there is more to gain. There is freedom within. As well as fullfilling relationships, although perhaps not symbiotic. Shed some light in there, first. We all live in the same world, we all have hands and feet, physically we can all more or less do the same. But if we follow a life that does not correspond with who we really are, the 12th house may very well become the house of self-undoing. However, this is my perception.

It could be that it has also something to do with herritage of parents, but hey, doesn't your inner life always, to some degree? What is in your horoscope should be feasible to deal with within the one lifetime you receive (sorry, Agnostic) and if you go about it with some integrity and discipline, it can never catch you off guard. I don't believe that everyone with a heavy 12th is meant to stay on the side line, there are less people who miss both legs!

#19 10-13-2006, 05:03 AM

Hello all. Just because i feel i wanna write a little, i have no idea where this is going to....

My 12th house:
cusp in 2° libra , and ends in 23° libra (yes thats my ascendant). So my 12th house is completely libra. Only the South node is in my 12th house. In the early beginning of my astroquest (1992) i already knew my southnode... actually it explained my life for a big part and I didnt hesitate to accept at once the value of astrology , especially the nodes.... I have sun and saturn conjunct northnode in 6th. To me it explained why I am an observer (libra) being in the background (12th) mostly. Personnally I think 12th house people want to understand (many different things?) and, they intuitively know that answers can be found by looking at THE BIGGER PICTURE.
To me , being a 12th house soul, as i call this southnode position, is a good start for 'being open' to the nature of astrology itself: looking at the 'whole'.

Never forget the house ruler(s), what are they doing in a chart ?
My Venus is trine to Neptune, so i have ruler 12th house trine Neptune....nice isnt it? Venus in 5th house makes me the artist that I am: I paint (and play keyboard/piano-sound). Venus is also conjunct Chiron, both in 1° Aries. They are trine Leo MC . etc etc
I use also Persephone as ruler of Libra (and Taurus) but i wont go there.
I think there are many defenitions possible for the 12th house. It depends a bit what subject you want to interpret.
Maybe nice to have a 12th house chat-online with everyone who is interested....
All the best

lilllybelle · #20 10-13-2006, 05:33 AM

God, why is the 12th so hard for me to understand? DNA you asked about my saturn return. I don't remember a lot. I kind of blacked out. I had sinus problems the whole time, so I was pretty spacey. I got into trouble at work for being spacey. I really enjoyed hiding in my house under a blanket. It felt safe there. I was extrordinarily scared. I just wanted to curl into a fetus position and dream a dream of feelings. I felt feelings of being surrounded by energy and a feeling of a strong prescence when I was alone. I enjoyed being alone. I felt the fight go out of me. For once I was speechless. I initially got to running around with the wrong crowd for a short while. I saw that I had to be careful and selective about who I let into my life. I got into some really dramatic over the top situations, and I let my voice be heard by all. That felt really good. I told quite a few people what a piece of **** they were. That was before I hit the retreat stage of it all. I lost touch with my spiritual community somewhat and just went off into my own world. I had a guy come over to spend the night one night and he didn't leave for months. I dissolved in my home, and then went to work and had silent power struggles with all the assholes that I was working with at the time. I went through a lot of therapy. I finally got on path career wise during the last pass of saturn. I also resisted strongly, and tryed to keep a grip on all the things that I had no control over, while everything in my life was saying "can't you just let it all go." The sense of self and indignation and the pride and all of it, just let it go. Hope that helps. You'll want to melt and maybe libra won't resist that. Leo doesn't like all that melting ****. My leo wanted to stay in charge of it all. L.

lilllybelle · #21 10-13-2006, 05:37 AM

Oh and you asked about aspects to my saturn. My saturn is nicely placed. It receives sextiles and trines from my jupiter, sun, neptune and pluto. It's also involved in a t-square with mercury and uranus. L.

Libra20 · #22 10-13-2006, 06:06 AM

I don't have any planets in the 12th house, but I have my both my Part of Fortune and the N. Node there in Pisces. I've read that being in the 12th house or in Pisces can cause the PoF to become the Part of Misfortune.

However, I've also read this more positive take on it:

The person with his Part of Fortune in the twelfth house has a unique opportunity to transform or dissolve his own Karma. This is a person who has mediumistic talents and the gift of prophecy. His dreams often give him answers. His flair for spirituality, mysticism, illusion, and fantasy can be productive in film, television, and works of fiction. Though he may not know it when it happens, his enemies will frequently change their attitude from hostility to neutrality, and sometimes even to benevolence. He is generally unaware of his good fortune. The person with his Part of Fortune in the twelfth house is treated well by health-care professionals.
________
nice **** Webcam

dna · #23 10-13-2006, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilllybelle

You'll want to melt and maybe libra won't resist that. Leo doesn't like all that melting ****. My leo wanted to stay in charge of it all. L.

im scared. well i have time to prepare.....

thanks

Howl · #24 10-13-2006, 06:24 AM

Lillybelle you're always so richly descriptive, I love it. Keep telling us stories

Nono(F) · #25 10-13-2006, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilllybelle

God, why is the 12th so hard for me to understand?

Yeah, why? From where I sit you pretty much seem to understand, why is that not enough? All of us are experts on who we are. If there is anything more we can't grasp, we're probably not ready. Reading your own scope is great, but sometimes we look for further meanings and directions down the road when all we should do is trust our own perception and live with who we are, here and now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilllybelle

I enjoyed being alone. I felt the fight go out of me. (...) I saw that I had to be careful and selective about who I let into my life. (..) You'll want to melt and maybe libra won't resist that. Leo doesn't like all that melting ****. My leo wanted to stay in charge of it all. L.

Sounds good

My aunt has been astrologer of many well known people here in Holland for over 40 years. Her life long, she would go as far as not travel when her transits would tell her so. A few years ago, her daughter was killed by her boyfriend. Last week when we had one of these long talks, I asked her, do you find that your insights are a source of comfort for you at this point? She answered 'Nono dear, what does it matter? In the end, we simply have to deal with it'.