Cincinnati Bengals Thread

[BobZemco]

Baltimore Ravens at Cincinnati Bengals

Significators:

Bengals 1st House and Jupiter
Ravens 7th House and Mercury

Ravens Win

[BobZemco]

What an idiot. The Bengals were the home team, they should have been the 7th House. I messed that one up. If you follow Bernadette Brady's method the challenger/visiting team is always the first house, the home team is always the 7th House.

I'll try and at least get the houses right next week.

[shawn]

did this 'senior member' have a 'senior moment?

[Bulletbobb]

Barbara Koval wrote an article for 'Considerations' where she advanced the idea that, in baseball, the visiting team went in the first house because they were always the first team at bat. IOW, they had the opportunity to initiate the action. This is where the idea of the vistor in the first comes from: the challenger in a duel, for example, has the more Marsy state of mind, so he goes in the first.

What Koval didn't consider is that in baseball the first action of the game is the throwing of the first pitch (rather like throwing a spear or rock to start a battle), and that is always done by the home team. Therefore the ht should go in the first house.

Unfortunately, what works for spontaneous events like battles and duels doesn't work for events like major league sports, which are scheduled months in advance. The question of who goes in the first house is the major Achilles heel of the game chart approach. You can't develop a workable system if you don't have the right team in the first house, and you can't know which team is in the first unless you have a workable system.

Bob

[shawn]

i have never known anyone to have a reliable 'horary type' method of picking winners, but i did pretty well using my 'real time' methods this week. i would like to think i am getting better at it this season since i have already gone thru a full season of learning last year.
wish i could say the same for chiefs quarterback, matt cassel

[Bulletbobb]

I'd really like to see someone here in the US try Konrad's method on American sports. Or Franco's, if anyone can figure out what his method is.

Bob

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by shawn

i have never known anyone to have a reliable 'horary type' method of picking winners,

You wouldn't use Horary, you'd use Electional. Basically you're looking at if it is a good time to play (for your team). It's not different than checking to see if you should schedule an event like a party, wedding, stock offereing or something else.

If it's a hometown team, the significators will always be 1st/7th, but for all other teams its 10th/4th.

It's the most accurate. I did better than 90% on the World Cup for the first 3 dozen matches until switching to look at another method where I failed miserably, but then switched back and got the last 6 matches correct.

Originally Posted by Bulletbobb

I'd really like to see someone here in the US try Konrad's method on American sports

I'm not really a big sports fan, but I'll look at Konrad's method.

[Bulletbobb]

So how do you use the 10th/4th? You posted earlier about the visitor being the 1st, so I don't understand the switch to the 10th.

Bob

[shawn]

ran an 'end of game chart' for 4;07 pm EDT in charlotte, NC for the bengals upcoming game with the panthers. no planets are within 5 degrees of an angle at this time, but the moon is within 6.5 degrees of the nadir, so it may be considered angular if this game ends as much as 6 minutes earlier than i have projected. we see that saturn is square to the node and that the sun is nearing a conjunction to saturn, putting it in high focus. i think this will tend to emphasize the defenses in this game.
not a lot of tight aspects in bengal coach lewis' chart, but T MO is about 2.5 degrees from perfecting a 3rd qtr sqr to N UR. T ME is in 3rd qtr sqr to N SA and T PL sextiles N NE and is in partile trine to N PL. none of his natal planets are angular at the end of the game and his transits are fairly 'ho hum' or average.
bengal qb palmer is getting the 3rd qtr sqr from T SU to N SU while T MO trines N MA. this is his best aspect and suggests an 'above average' day. the current jupiter / uranus conj. opposes N SA and this echoes the 'defensive theme' from lewis' chart. palmer has N UR approaching the midheaven at this time and N VE approaching the AC. these symbols are somewhat hopeful for him and his team.
panther coach, john fox is getting T SU in partile separating 3rd qtr sqr to N NO and T ME sextiles N SA. T ME also forms a temporary yod to his SU / MA sextile and T JU / UR forms a yod to his N NE / PL sextile. T NE opposes N PL and T PL is in partile conj. to N VE. his N SA will be near the midheaven at the end of the game emphasizing his defense, as his N JU / UR conjunction separates from the DC. these transits look worrisome to me as temporary yods can be very difficult to deal successfully with.
notre dame rookie jimmy claussen gets his first nfl start in place of the ineffective matt moore and this is always a tough spot for a rookie qb. T SU squares N NE, 3rd qtr and T ME conjoins N MA. he may be scared on the inside, but does a good job of covering it up with his bravado. T JU / UR are in close opposition to N SU and T PL squares N NO. T NO squares N VE and these are challenging transits that will be tough to overcome. none of his natal planets are angular at the end of the game and it looks like a low scoring defensive struggle that the bengals will come out on top in.

[BobZemco]

I gave up on messing with "methods" so I'll just use astrology since that seems to work better.

Bengals: Jupiter; Mars; Moon
Panthers: Mercury; Moon

Jupiter Angular 4th House (Note: Jupiter within 2° 4th House Cusp is Angular)
Mercury Cadent 9th House

Mercury applying opposition to Jupiter: Bengals (+)
North Node in 1st: Bengals (+)
Mars Partile Sextile North Node and Exaltation Ruler North Node: Bengals (+)

Moon separated from Jupiter applying Mercury: Ravens (+)

Game Time: Exceeds allotted air time
Game Scoring:: Moderate (2-3 TDs + FGs)
Game Start: Poorly for each team
Injury Potential: Low/None
Point Spread: Not covered

Bengals Winner

[Bulletbobb]

Everybody else is weighing in on this game, so I might as well, too.

I'm using an experimental technique using the progressed lunar return which I don't have much experience with. It did quite well last week, when you allow for one error due to poor math on my part, and two others due to really dumb interpretation due to rushing to post something before the games started.

The Bengals main aspect is the converse MC -180-c.SA, and c.EQ-90-c.SA, along with c.VE-90-ASC. These would suggest the Bengals are not 'up' for the game. There is also p.ASC-90-p.MO, which is probably more bad than good.

Carolina has p.SA-120-MC (1'), p.ASC-0-POF (6'), and c.MO-180-JU (10'). This would appear to favor the Panthers, but in this case JU is the ruler of the 4th and 7th and is in the 7th, which I have found almost always indicates the other team. Also, the Moon is the ruler of the 11th, so it, too, could be referring to the Bengals.

As so often happens, that charts are far from clear.

Bob

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by BobZemco

Game Time: Exceeds allotted air time
Game Scoring:: Moderate (2-3 TDs + FGs)
Game Start: Poorly for each team
Injury Potential: Low/None
Point Spread: Not covered

Bengals Winner

Game Time was 3:03 (past the allotted time)
Bengals scored 2 TDs and 2 FGs
Poor Start
No injuries

Bengals win 20-7

[Bulletbobb]

Looks like a bad call to me.

Game time was 3 hours, which is what they allow. That's why the four o'clock games start at 4:15.

And they covered easily.

Bob

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by Bulletbobb

Looks like a bad call to me.

Game time was 3 hours, which is what they allow.

Actually the programming is 2:48 start to finish with last the 12 minutes being an 8 minute recap by the sportscasters interspersed with 4 minutes of commercial advertising to bring the scheduled programming to a total of 3 hours.

In the game summary report the statisticians recorded the game as officially ending at 3:03 pm.

Saturn or Mars Angular or Mars in Capricorn lengthens the conflict or drags it out (according to Bonatti, Abu Ma'shar, Masha'allah, Zael, ibn Ezra et al).

That's apparent in conflict charts eg US vs Afghanistan where Mars in Capricorn in the 10th indicates an extremely long drawn out war (which is exactly what has happened) and US v Iraq where Saturn in the 4th House indicated a long drawn out operation in a difficult environment (which is exactly what happened).

I noticed in World Cup matches and baseball games Saturn Angular lengthens the match or game and if impeded ends up being over-time.

Since the 4th House is the conditions of the location, Saturn in the 4th House indicates rain delays in baseball (especially if aspected by the Moon).

Originally Posted by Bulletbobb

That's why the four o'clock games start at 4:15.

Broncos started at 4:15 but other games started at 4:05 and apparently that's a recent change since they used to start at 4:00 and sometimes the earlier game would overlap.

I don't have a TV and haven't watched an entire game since the Bengals were last in the Superbowl so I don't pay it much attention.

Originally Posted by Bulletbobb

And they covered easily.

Bob

I'm not a gambler. I thought "-3" meant the Bengals would lose by 3 points.

[shawn]

it seems to make sense that a lot of angular saturn influence would cause a lot of delays and stoppages of play and a lot of games have these when they are close at the end and the teams are using up their timeouts and such. also the injury factor is increased with mars and saturn prominent the way they are in aaron rodgers chart tonite as the packers take on the bears. i hope he does not get seriously injured or have to leave the game. he is getting T MA conj N SA and T SA conj. N MA ouch!

[Bulletbobb]

I don't know where you got the 2:48 figure, but I'm skeptical. Games average about three hours. That's why the second set of games start at 4:15: to provide a bit of leeway so they don't have to delay the second game. I was going to give you a link to the NFL site where you can get the start time and duration of the games, but there is something wrong and I can't get in. Even at best it is a very slow site.

The 3:03 figure is not when the game ended, it's the length of the game. You can find this in many newspapers or on the Sports Network site, and many others.

-3 means the Bengals were a 3 point favorite. To cover the spread they would have to win by at least 4 points. It's like a handicap.

You comments about length of game are interesting. Shawn might find them useful, as his method is very dependant on when the game ends. I'm somewhat skeptical that the technique would work in practice, however. The reason is that there are alot of games that start at the same time, and many of these will have the same planets near the angles. If you could show that all games with SA angular went long, then that would be worth knowing.

Bob

[shawn]

last nite's bears game ended at 42 minutes after the hour and that is exactly the time i used on my end of game chart, so it is not that hard to guesstimate an approximate time.
we saw the effects of mars and saturn in aaron rodgers chart as his team continually shot itself in the foot thru out the whole game, culminating in a bitter frustrating defeat. they set a record of sorts with 18 penalties in all, several reversing, otherwise, big plays by the packers.
big game coming up against the winless browns this week and they are sure to test the bengals.
this may be a tricky one to call as we see the T MO will conjoin bengals coach marvin lewis N UR, pefecting sometime during the second half of the game. helpful transits from mercury include the conjunction to N SU and the partile trine to N MA. T PL is in soft aspect to his NE / JU conj, also partile , and trine to N PL, partile again. this is a big improvement in his chart over last week and his team will play well overall.
carson palmer is also getting a helpful partile sextile from T VE / MA to N MA. T JU / UR are also in partile opposition to palmer's N SA. palmer may be at his best at the end of the game as N UR culminates and N VE rises.
brown's coach mangini is getting a hopeful sextile to N VE from T SU and T ME sextiles N JU, so there is reason for optimism in his mind at least!
the problems for him are indicated by the square from T MO to N / SA, first quarter side,and the VE / MA conj is just over 2 degrees from opposition to N SA. this is too close for comfort where this pair are concerned and we can imagine lots of frustrations for this beleaguered coach. his team will fight to the end, and may even cover a point spread for all i can tell, but things don't look all that promising in his near future as T NE applies to conjoin N NO.
his qb seneca wallace may have a very emotional game as T MO likely perfects to a conjunction to N SU, sometime during this game! T MO also sextiles N MA and he may be playing at his highest level. T VE / MA make a partile sextile to N JU and T JU trines N ME. T NE could be considered in yod aspect to his N ME / SA sextile and this may show communication problems, as well as the separating square from T ME to N VE
i can imagine that the browns may be able to outmuscle their opponent a little bit here and there, but somehow the decision will go against them in the end, in a similar way as we saw the packers lose to the bears on monday nite. i would not want to bet the under 37 in this game and i would be reluctant to lay many points to a desperate browns team, but i like the bengals to win the game.

[Bulletbobb]

The average for this week's games was 3:07.
Games within ±4 minutes: 6
Games between 5-8 minutes: 2
Games > 8 minutes: 8
Games > 12 minutes: 6

So 8 games (50%) are within ±2° on the angles, which would be acceptable.
But of the remaining 8 games 6 are at 12 minutes or more from the average, which means that almost 40% of the games you've got a built in error of 3° or more in the angles, which is getting pretty close to guessing. And that's for the MC: the ASC could be way more than 3°.

If you're saying a certain aspect could fall 'in the 4th quarter' then the error isn't so important. But if you're trying to pin down when the game ends then 12 minutes is way to much for me, for that many games.

Bob

[shawn]

that's awesome research, bob, thanks for the info on ending times. if you would ever try using this method, you would find that it is not based on trying to guess the exact ending time, but rather it is good to see what is going on around this time and it is not hard to allow for a few degrees either way. when i ran the super bowl chart for a couple years ago, i was off by about 30 minutes and this contributed to why i picked the cardinals to beat the steelers as kurt warner's N SU was culminating. his team took the lead at that time, but there was still just enough time left in the game for the steelers to get a game winning score. i had forgotten to allow for the extra long halftime show.
baseball would be much harder to handicap with this method because it is not a timed sport and there is more variance in the length of games.

[Bulletbobb]

It's the 'around this time' that worries me. For all you can tell the game is over at 'around' the time you are looking at. That is not acceptable to me.

Not to mention the fact that you are working with charts where you have no angles, and you don't even know where the Moon is within ±7° or so, and you ignore the converse transits, and you have to use charts for several players/coaches. Not to mention the huge analysis you produce for each game. Hardly anyone would have the interest to go to all that work, especially for a method that seems to work only about half the time.

Now if you were to try using the accurately timed charts I use you might have something that would work more than 50% of the time. You'd have accurate angles, you'd know where the Moon is, and there would only be one chart per team.

Sounds like a no-brainer to me.

Maybe, when Bob Zemco realizes that his method doesn't work, he'd be interested in giving it a try. I would be very interested in seeing how it works.

Bob

[shawn]

if you were paying attention, you would notice that my results have been quite a bit better than 50 %, but no sense in confusing you with facts when your mind is already made up.

[Bulletbobb]

If that's the case then consider what your results would be if you had timed charts, with the Moon and angles accurately known.

Even so, if the lengthy analysis you present is actually necessary to arrive at a prediction, then I don't think anyone will adopt the method. Too much work. That's why everybody is fixated on the game chart method: it may not work, but it's simple.

Bob

[shawn]

i couldn't agree more, bob!
i would love to have timed chars on all my guys, but that is not realistic. i do have a few timed charts, however.
not sure when laziness became a virtue, but just like anything else, if you put in the work, then astrology can yield good results. in my case, i do not consider it work because football and astrology are 2 of my favorite things and it's like cake and ice cream. but it can be time consuming.
i had to laugh at your take on why people continue to waste their time with the old fashioned 'game chart' method. that is the type of twisted logic that drives me nuts!

[Bulletbobb]

When I referred to timed charts I meant the team charts such as I am using. Getting charts for all the players, coaches, etc., in your method is really impractical.
I can give you the data for the Chiefs and their last opponent if you you'd be willing to conduct an interesting experiment. Or any other game, for that matter.
I suspect readers of this thread might be interested to see what your analysis would look like.

Bob

[shawn]

if you can post such a chart on this website, then i will analyze it. i would start with an 'end of game chart' in the center and the 'team charts' around it. i would be the most interested in next week's chiefs / colts game.
i have my doubts about the value of a 'team chart' as i think that this concept is mostly 'wishful thinking'.
the 'real time' methods that i use are far from perfect, but my feeling is that at least it's 'real'.