Will he harm the baby?

ElenaJ

Well-known member
Hopefully this is the correct area for this question.
A friend of mine gave me this time when she asked herself the question, so she is the querent. She is American, Protestant.
Her daughter is married to a Catholic Italian, and they had a baby in May. My friend's husband, and grandfather to the baby, is Muslim and was very disturbed both by the marriage to a non-Muslim man (who refused to convert) and to the baby destined to be non-Muslim.
All of these persons live in Italy.
My friend is asking if he might try to harm the baby.
The marriage between my friend and her husband is very strained, not only for this reason. The mars/neptune opposition on the Asc/Desc describes their relationship quite well.
Is the baby the IXth of the chart (querent's daughter's child)? If so this would make mars the baby's ruler as well.
 

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Serendipity

Well-known member
Did she ask the question back in May and just gave you the chart information now?
The chart you posted I would say gives a no answer. Your friend is the Sun and her husband Saturn. The grandchild would be Mars. Saturn is peregrine and debilitated by being retro. Saturn isn't in good shape but it's not making any aspect to Mars. Mars is under domicile of the Sun and right on the ascendant. I think your friend would be protecting the baby from harm. The moon is in fall and in the cadent 3rd. Doesn't have a lot of power to perform. It's interesting that Saturn is opposed to what would be his daughter's sig, Jupiter and in the sign of her detriment.
I think there may be a heated discussion on this matter as Moon will oppose Mercury in the 9th.
But do I think he will harm the baby? No.
 

ElenaJ

Well-known member
Yes, she asked herself the question in May but didn't communicate it to me until now.
Interesting the opposition of the husband and his daughter. She did not grow up as Muslim, which he blames on my friend (his wife) who did not herself convert and therefore teach their daughter to be a Muslim (according to him).
He is psychologically in a bad state, with lots of interior unresolved issues and conflicts which he apparently has no desire or capacity to try to resolve. He is diabetic so also physically weak and conditioned by it. He does Ramadan fasting although he was advised not to, and could be absolved from it. The daughter tries to be close to her dad, but without submitting to any of his orders, rules, or the limits she would live with if she were a Muslim woman. She is quite a free spirit.
 

BobZemco

Well-known member
No, she asked me today, from notes she had jotted down in May.

It should be for when you received the question. Lily is quite clear on that in his books. If you get an e-mail on August 1 but don't read it until August 20, the date is August 20 and the time is the actual time you read the e-mail. Same with letters someone might send you.

In person to person contacts, it's when the Querent asks you the astrologer the question. Even if they've been thinking about something for 3 years, the date and time is when they come to you and ask for an answer or to know the outcome.
 

ElenaJ

Well-known member
I think we have to throw the bath water out with the baby, since she gave me the time this morning but I didn't note the time.
I see I posted the question at 10:47am today which was very shortly after receiving the question (about 10/15 minutes), but I can't get closer to the time.
 

BobZemco

Well-known member
I see I posted the question at 10:47am today which was very shortly after receiving the question (about 10/15 minutes), but I can't get closer to the time.

Use your best guess. In 30 minutes of time, the Sun will move only a few minutes and the Moon about 30' of arc, and maybe 6° on the Ascendant which ain't much. I don't believe it will materially affect the outcome if the time is off a few minutes.
 

ElenaJ

Well-known member
This is as close as I can call it. What do you think, could it be valid?
 

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ElenaJ

Well-known member
Further query to Bob, to clarify for me the valid time to be used for calculating a horary. When my friend first has the thought of something in her mind (whatever the topic might be), isn't that in a sense the birth of that idea? Doesn't that time have validity for the chart? Or is it to be considered as valid only the time she voices it to me (let's say in person-to-person, to keep it simple for the moment). Which is less spontaneous. Or, developing my question further, I loose an earring and after a few hours think for the first time, Where is my earring?, but can't do a chart until a few hours later, is the time for the horary chart that of when I first had the thought pop into my mind, or when I finally can do the chart? On a different thread today someone posted a query about a chart she did for a friend and I noticed the query was dated July whereas the chart was done in August, and I've asked there as well about the time validity. This is the thread to that one: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=227930&posted=1#post227930
Hope this is clear. This is a consideration I never really made, as I always used the moment when the query came to mind. I am really keen to learn what the correct approach is. Thanks.
 

Timtams

Well-known member
@ElenaJ

I think that the question is born when it first occurs to the querent and is understood for the purposes of asking a question. Obviously the former alone is harder to pinpoint because we have so many thoughts running through our mind the whole day long. So I say, it must be the moment when a conscious decision is made to ask the heavens for an answer.

Then again, who am I to say ? All my charts seem to have ASC rulers and hour rulers that do not harmonise. :whistling:

For your interest, the chart you tagged was "conceived" in July when 23 and I sat together trying to practise horary. Neither she nor I knew what we were looking at and at long last (tired of my many requests) she decided to post it here. :biggrin:
 

Serendipity

Well-known member
I looked at the second chart. I also think the 2nd chart gives a no answer.
Your friend is Mercury. Her husband Jupiter. The baby is Venus... daughter would be Saturn.
Jupiter is only dignified by term in this chart. Debilitated by being retrograde but accidentally dignified in the 7th, his own first house. Venus is in her own rulership and also in an angular house,so she is strong. Venus and Jupiter have separated from an opposition. If this were an applying aspect I might be concerned ...especially since Jupiter is in the sign of Venus's detriment. The moon is in fall so it doesn't have power to act.
Perhaps he's confronted the daughter about all this because Saturn and Jupiter have just separated from an opposition. Jupiter is also in the sign of Saturn's fall. The husband is definitely not liking the situation and the daughter is / has not been receptive to what he says. Fortunately Saturn is stronger and won't bend to anyone.
The only thing I wonder about is Venus applying to Mars. I am not sure what this would mean in the context of this chart. Maybe someone else can comment.
Also I am not sure why your friend, Mercury is hiding in the 12th making no aspects.
 

23

Well-known member
Ditto Timtams and also what I said on my post. It will be when your friend defines the question in her mind. You have every right to interpret the chart that her question will draw up. If you ask the same question again, then yours will be invalid as her question was the first question on that issue to be asked.
 

23

Well-known member
ElenaP - just to add for completeness. Say for instance, you see this situation and your friend asks no horary question about it. Then you can ask the question about the situation because your's will be the first question and therefore it will be valid (provided no strictures interfere). In that case what will happen is that you will be the ASC/ASC ruler/Moon and she will be the 11th house. The chart will then turn. This means her partner will be represented by the 5th (the opposite equivalent 7th house to the ASC).
This is not relevant here, just for you to know in the future.

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When you say "he" in relation to the baby, do you mean the dad of the child (ie son-in-law of your friend)?

If that is the case, your friend asked the question (which you are now interpreting), your friend is the ASC/ASC ruler/Moon. Her daughter is the 5th house and I would say her daughter's daughter is the 5th house from the 5th house, so the 9th house (as you have mentioned). I am not 100% sure on her son-in-law but I would say he is the 11th house cusp as he is the partner (opposite) of the daughter (5th). I wouldn't say he is 5th as he is not from her. Your friend's Muslim husband is the 7th in the chart.
 
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23

Well-known member
I'm not sure if this question is valid though. The ruler of the hour is Saturn. The ASC is Leo and it's ruler is the Sun (and Sun also rules the fire triplicity in day charts). The Sun and Saturn are not of the same nature, nor ameliorate this by making an aspect. Someone please check to see if I have not made an error.

ETA: Also Moon is via combusta, the question is not valid. (Moon is between 15 Libra and 15 deg Sco).
 
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23

Well-known member
Your second chart (the one you drew up when you asked the question), is invalid because the Moon is via combusta.
 

ElenaJ

Well-known member
Thank you all for these insights.
To reply to the details, the question refers to my friend's husband, who she fears might harm her daughter's baby. My friend's husband is the father of my friend's daughter.
Interesting comment about mercury hiding in the twelfth. My friend is hiding herself in this situation, not saying anything to any of the people involved, and looking in from the outside, trying to keep an eye on her husband while not being observed by the others. As far as the lack of aspect, guess what, she is taking no action apart from asking the horary question, and is impotent in the situation.
Thanks again.
 
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