The Astrological Fate of the United States and Its Current President

[PD187540]

In light of President Obama's strong support of the building of a mosque near Ground Zero in New York City, does this political development have any extreme consequences for the near future, astrologically speaking?

Specifically, is there anything in President Obama's chart that hints at an impending assassination? Is there anything in the United States' chart that would indicate a wide-scale revolutionary uprising over this event? And lastly, is there something that alludes to a World War?

[ElenaJ]

Just what I would like to know about too! We had a forum thread on Obama's secondary progressions, http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=27153

[PD187540]

Yep, I checked that out and made a comment on it. I just find it very interesting how the last post to be made on that thread occurred on August 8th, and 5 days later, the mosque comment came out. As a psychically gifted person myself, I feel that that particular event on the 13th is setting the whole world up for disaster. Call me crazy, but that's just how I feel.

Also, please check out the thread located at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...521#post227521. I think that Mexican astrologer is a genius. Amazing how the events are correlating!

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by PD187540

does this political development have any extreme consequences for the near future, astrologically speaking?

No, astrologically speaking it's an insignificant event tantamount to eating or breathing or urinating. Such trivial and banal matters do not appear in transits, progressions, returns or profections.

Originally Posted by PD187540

Specifically, is there anything in President Obama's chart that hints at an impending assassination?

No.

Originally Posted by PD187540

Is there anything in the United States' chart that would indicate a wide-scale revolutionary uprising over this event?

You'd have to explicitly define "wide-scale revolutionary uprising."

If by "wide-scale revolutionary uprising" you mean the Watts Riots, the answer is "no."

If by "wide-scale revolutionary uprising" you mean the Peasants' Rebellion, or the Peasant's Rebellion (the other one -- in the German city-states -- the one where Martin Luther sided with the emperor and had 100,000 or so peasants and slaves who had surrendered executed for sedition), the answer is "no."

If by "wide-scale revolutionary uprising" you mean a revolutionary war, war of [colonial] independence or a civil war (sub-groups of Civil War-types) the answer is "no."

Historically speaking, no revolution was ever supported by more than 10%-12% of the population. That was true in the French Revolution, Garibaldi's Italian Revolution, the War of Colonial Independence (usually erroneously referred to as the 'American Revolutionary War'), the October Revolution in Russia and the 1989 Revolution in Romania (and all others in between and prior to that). Accordingly no such wars had any "wide-scale revolutionary uprisings" (however Wars of Secession usually involve larger numbers of the population typically in excess of 50%).

Originally Posted by PD187540

And lastly, is there something that alludes to a World War?

Not before 2024, no.

Originally Posted by PD187540

I think that Mexican astrologer is a genius

I'll have to call him out. You can invite him here and I can rain all over his really bad astrology.

It would be a pleasure.

The ruling total Solar Eclipse of last July 11...

That eclipse is a non-event and has no bearing on anything.

The first criteria for any eclipse event is that the eclipse must be visible. The eclipse was not visible in the US so it can be dismissed because it has no bearing on the United States or any person living in the United States. That is not my opinion, that is the opinion of Sephariel, Raphael, Lily, Bonatti, Malinus, Morin, Ptolemy, Alkindus, Dariot, Placidus, Omar and Ramesey.

Even if the eclipse had been visible in the US, eclipses affect only those "...cities, countries, kingdoms or regions [that] are subject to the sign wherein the eclipse is..."

Cancer does not represent the United States, so it has no effect (and the fact that people want to believe it affects them does not alter the fact that it does not).

... tightly "T"squared the opposition formed by Iran's progressed Mars in Aries on US progressed Venus to the US progressed Mars in Libra conjoins Iran's Pluto and progressed Pluto.

That's really bad astrology. He's using the wrong charts for one. If he's using the Iranian Revolution Chart then he cannot use the Sibley Chart. In any event, he cannot use the Sibley Chart since it never was the chart of the United States (although it was the chart for a brief time for each of the 13 independent countries created as a result of the Declaration of Independence, which, by the way, does not contain the phrase "United States" in spite of claims to the contrary).

[dhundhun]

I think, we have very little understanding of Pluto's return. In US chart, Pluto returned to Cap in Jan 2008.

Anyone, who closely watched Pluto's return for countries like UK, Japan, etc. (whose birth chart is over 250 years old), willing to comment on Pluto's retun in US chart?

This is a good start: http://members.bitstream.net/~bunlion/bpi/plutocap.html

[BobZemco]

This is a good start: http://members.bitstream.net/~bunlion/bpi/plutocap.html

It is magnificent, but it is not Astrology.

Astrology is Planet, Condition, Sign and House. Always.

Saturn and Pluto form a menacing square in 2009 and 2010

That is exactly the kind of non-astrological nonsense that causes great harm and damage to Astrology and why people ridicule Astrology and Astrologers.

He provides no delineation whatsoever. He totally fails to mention that this particular square is a square by Mutual Application, because Pluto is retrograde and moving toward Saturn who is simultaneously moving toward Pluto, a sort of "head-on-collision" if you will.

However these are transits, so this aspect will appear in the transit charts of all countries, businesses and people.

He totally fails to mention that Pluto in the Sibley Chart rules the 12th House of Institutions and that Saturn rules the 2nd House of Domestic Commerce, Finance and Banking and the 3rd House of Stocks.

While Saturn is in the 10th House and that is the Government, that would be an incorrect delineation. The 10th House rules the leaders, officers and directors of any organization or institution.

I believe I've already mentioned institutions in the context of Pluto ruling the 12th House. So how menacing is this transiting Saturn square transiting Pluto by Mutual Application? Not very. At least not to the country, government or people of the US. If I would be a CEO of a corporation or director of a large institution I might have cause to be worried.

[PD187540]

Originally Posted by BobZemco

At least not to the country, government or people of the US. If I would be a CEO of a corporation or director of a large institution I might have cause to be worried.

To be dead honest, I disagree with your astrological mentality to a T, but I will not discuss why, because when I argue, I tend to make very strong points that lead to all-out wars, so I'm going to bite my tongue here.

I will say though that no matter whether you're a CEO of a company or President of the United States, the responsibilities are the same at the very core.

[PD187540]

Originally Posted by BobZemco

No, astrologically speaking it's an insignificant event tantamount to eating or breathing or urinating. Such trivial and banal matters do not appear in transits, progressions, returns or profections.

But I will say that THIS really annoys me. How can you say that "trivial events" don't affect astrology? I think that's a blatant blow to the entire art and science of astrology itself, and you should apologize to the profession that you just disgraced.

You must search for hidden meaning in EVERYTHING, and everything has a purpose and reason behind it. Even the content of a speech could be reflected astrologically, so yes, I'd say it's very significant.

[dr. farr]

My own attitudes re to mundane astrology are very radical (much more so than my eclectic approach in horary, event and astro-therapeutics), and so disturbed both the owner and the mundane-section moderator at skyscript.com, as to indirectly lead to my being banned from that site. So I won't go much into this here on AW, but I shall say that I (for me, personally) long ago abandoned as hopelessly flawed national (or city or state) "birth charts" (such as the much disputed US "birthchart")-and in this I was encouraged both by Charles Carter's strong doubts about these, as well as the doubts expressed back in 1029 AD about the same subject, by Al-Biruni. Guido Bonatti (most illustrious of the European mundane astrologers) did not attempt to use such questionable charts either, and in my opinion, attempting to base any prognostics on such alleged "birth charts" leads to many disappointments in the results obtained.

I take "astro-geodetics" much into account, but here again what I follow is at variance with all the published material on astro-cartography, or Johndro's or Sepharial's geodetic allocations. Furthermore, to me, planets represent secondary factors or "transmission effects" in mundane, behind stars in their influence, and I have also come to believe that "celestial topography" (pitted degrees and elevated degrees) plays a major modifying role (as do the quality of "degree areas" and especially the long-forgotten "partes damnande" of Manilius) In addition, following Bonatti*, I also pay attention to certain Parts(Lots) relating to mundane issues.

So my mundane outlook is really very much at variance with the delineations posted in this thread, and indeed in the Mundane section threads in general; however, I learned my "mundane lesson" through my experiences at skyscript.com, so I won't be bothering anyone here with "my take" on Mundane matters...

(*Bonatti's treatise on Mundane Astrology, a rare book even in the time of Lilly, is at last available in its first translation into a modern language {English}, by Ben Dykes, from astro-america.com)

[PD187540]

Originally Posted by piercethevale

For example most Astrologers are still trying to 'Ballpark' the year of the birth of Jesus/Yeshua...I've got it down to the minute...

Can we see that birthchart posted on here?

[Frank]

Here's something I wrote and had published before the 2008 election:

http://www.frankstar.com/ElectInaug.htm

[PD187540]

Originally Posted by Frank

Here's something I wrote and had published before the 2008 election:

http://www.frankstar.com/ElectInaug.htm

That's an extremely intelligent and well-written article!

"Based on the research I’ve presented above, I’m led to make the following predictions about our next president:

• That it is very likely the next U.S. President will serve only one term, and it is quite possible that it will only be a partial term.
• While that president might be wildly popular, it will be a rather difficult term.
• What the American people thought they voted for and what they actually voted for could be quite different.
• The next administration may talk a very good game – but the results will likely be much less than desired by most.
• I think there will be some very basic changes to the way the U.S. economy works – in ways that might not be apparent for many years.
• The way the USA views itself and the way others view the USA could undergo fundamental changes.
• The next president may become “The October Horse4.”

Those conclusions seem to be dead-on accurate about this current President. I've actually heard and read various things suggesting that he will serve only a partial term. If so, under what conditions would that occur? Assassination has been ruled out by some astrologers, since they don't see that in his chart anytime soon. Perhaps resignation?

If "The October Horse" currently refers to Obama, that's an interesting allusion to the ancient Rome chariot ritual practice. Maybe he'll only serve a partial term because the people will demand he be removed from office? Or after the November midterm elections when Congress completely changes over (which will definitely happen), they will be calling for and instituting measures to impeach him??

Does this sound too far-fetched?

[dr. farr]

Frank's mundane article is superior, and notice that he brings in a "birthday chart" (Declaration of Indpendence chart) only for comparative purposes, and not as part of his fundamental hypothesis. I too did an Obama inauguration chart, which had ramifications similar to several of Frank's prognostications (I was approached by a local radio station to have an on air discussion of my astrological findings, but I declined, since I shun publicity regarding the particular methods I use)
Again, my hat's off to Frank's mundane analysis regarding the Obama presidency.

[windwaker24]

Originally Posted by PD187540

That's an extremely intelligent and well-written article!

"Based on the research I’ve presented above, I’m led to make the following predictions about our next president:

• That it is very likely the next U.S. President will serve only one term, and it is quite possible that it will only be a partial term.
• While that president might be wildly popular, it will be a rather difficult term.
• What the American people thought they voted for and what they actually voted for could be quite different.
• The next administration may talk a very good game – but the results will likely be much less than desired by most.
• I think there will be some very basic changes to the way the U.S. economy works – in ways that might not be apparent for many years.
• The way the USA views itself and the way others view the USA could undergo fundamental changes.
• The next president may become “The October Horse4.”

Those conclusions seem to be dead-on accurate about this current President. I've actually heard and read various things suggesting that he will serve only a partial term. If so, under what conditions would that occur? Assassination has been ruled out by some astrologers, since they don't see that in his chart anytime soon. Perhaps resignation?

If "The October Horse" currently refers to Obama, that's an interesting allusion to the ancient Rome chariot ritual practice. Maybe he'll only serve a partial term because the people will demand he be removed from office? Or after the November midterm elections when Congress completely changes over (which will definitely happen), they will be calling for and instituting measures to impeach him??

Does this sound too far-fetched?

Well, I've heard if the Repubs get the House, Obama may be in trouble. Rep. Issa's got his sights locked on this administration and has subpeonas ready once he becomes the Chairman of the Oversight Committee if the GOP does indeed win in November. Anyone have any predictions on the 2010 midterms? Will the Democrats stay? Will the Repubs destroy them? I've been researching different astrology sites and read different predicitions. Most of the predictions just reflected the predictor's political leanings with clearly Democratic astrologers predicting the Dems will remain and clearly Conservative astrologers predicting a bloodbath for Obama and the Dems. They both can't be right. Any thoughts?

[Kenoshamaensa]

Regarding impeachment, there would have to be something fairly serious to impeach him FOR. One can't simply impeach a president to get rid of him. Ergo, one would need to look, I think, for evidence of a serious enough scandal/breaking of the law. Perhaps a comparison between Obama's chart and Nixon's?

[ElenaJ]

Was Nixon impeached or did he resign?
It was Clinton who was impeached. Later repealed.

[ElenaJ]

So basically a comparison between Nikon's chart and Omaba's wouldn't necessarily be relevant.
What in a president's chart might indicate a disgraceful end to his term, or would that be an electional chart, as pertaining to his election time rather than his natal?

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by ElenaJ

Was Nixon impeached or did he resign?

He resigned.

Originally Posted by ElenaJ

It was Clinton who was impeached. Later repealed.

He was acquitted. The impeachment was premature. Had they waited 6-8 months they could have convicted Clinton for the Iran-Kosovo Affair and the Iran-Bosnia Affair (same thing as Iran-Contra Affair). Those things surfaced later and it would have been political suicide to attempt a 2nd impeachment. Clinton had authorized advisor Anthony Lake to illegally purchase weapons and munitions from Iran and ship them to Albania to be infiltrated into Kosovo-Metohija and Bosnia by al-Qaeda lieutentant al-Zawahiri in violation of US public laws and UN Security Council acts. You can read that in the House and Senate committee investigations into Kosovo-Metohija and Bosnia, and also when Clinton appointed Lake as CIA Director, Lake was denied at his confirmation hearing for those reasons and you can read that in the transcripts there as well.

Originally Posted by dr. farr

My own attitudes re to mundane astrology are very radical (much more so than my eclectic approach in horary, event and astro-therapeutics), and so disturbed both the owner and the mundane-section moderator at skyscript.com, as to indirectly lead to my being banned from that site.

Really. Well, anyone who gets banned from there gets my respect.

Originally Posted by dr. farr

I (for me, personally) long ago abandoned as hopelessly flawed national (or city or state) "birth charts" (such as the much disputed US "birthchart")...

They do work, so long as you have an accurate birth time, but unfortunately that is not always going to be the case. Even if you do get an "accurate" birth time, it's more representative of the government, or the type of government, than of the country itself.

Even so, they are helpful, but not a necessity and as you pointed out, the Ancients didn't rarely used them, if at all. Their charts were all based on Great Conjunctions, Ingresses and regnal ascensions.

Originally Posted by dr. farr

So my mundane outlook is really very much at variance with the delineations posted in this thread, and indeed in the Mundane section threads in general; however, I learned my "mundane lesson" through my experiences at skyscript.com, so I won't be bothering anyone here with "my take" on Mundane matters...

I'm a believe in Hegelian Dialects, so conflicting opinions are welcome (since that is often the best way to synthesize the truth or the facts or the best course of action)

Originally Posted by dr. farr

*Bonatti's treatise on Mundane Astrology, a rare book even in the time of Lilly, is at last available in its first translation into a modern language {English}, by Ben Dykes, from astro-america.com

As an aside, I would discourage people from wasting their time with Ramesey. He basically rambles along and then says, "I'm tired of this tedious writing, you don't need to know about the remaining considerations so forget it." Or, he says, "The Ancients have a lot of rules and considerations and I find them boring so you don't need to know about them."

Originally Posted by Frank

Here's something I wrote and had published before the 2008 election

That's excellent Frank, and that's how it should be presented, an analysis with research and facts to support the line of thinking.

Originally Posted by piercethevale

...ahh, good Doctor...so you've gotten the boot from 'Deb The Shackler' over at skyscript also..well

You, too? What, was it like a "Saturday Night Massacre" or something? I'll hang a picture of on the "Wall of Heroes" too.

Originally Posted by PD187540

But I will say that THIS really annoys me. How can you say that "trivial events" don't affect astrology? I think that's a blatant blow to the entire art and science of astrology itself, and you should apologize to the profession that you just disgraced.

You must search for hidden meaning in EVERYTHING, and everything has a purpose and reason behind it. Even the content of a speech could be reflected astrologically, so yes, I'd say it's very significant.

It is insignificant, and no, I refuse to apologize for not being over-emotional, over-sensitive, highly ethnocentric and extremely prejudiced when judging mundane charts. Ethnocentrism and mundane astrology do not mix.

The death of every American does not show up in transits or progressions of the US natal chart, because those are trivial and banal events of no consequence whatsoever. Likewise, the deaths of notable people do not show up either. Perhaps you or others worshiped Curt Cobain or the Batman guy, but their deaths were non-events that had no bearing on anything related to the US in the grand scheme of things and wasting time looking for hidden meanings where none exist is exactly that; a waste of time.

A mosque has existed there for more than 40 years (along with a Greek Orthodox Church, specifically St Nicholas) and the last I heard:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

The fact that people are overly excited about it just like they're overly excited about "Dancing with the Stars" or "American Idol", or the final episode of "LOST" does not make it a significant event. A little common sense goes a long way.

The failure or refusal to set aside certain prejudices and biases against a particular country, ethnic group, government, political party, individual or religion will always result in erroneous judgments concerning mundane affairs.

[Vista]

Originally Posted by PD187540

That's an extremely intelligent and well-written article!

"Based on the research I’ve presented above, I’m led to make the following predictions about our next president:

• That it is very likely the next U.S. President will serve only one term, and it is quite possible that it will only be a partial term.
• While that president might be wildly popular, it will be a rather difficult term.
• What the American people thought they voted for and what they actually voted for could be quite different.
• The next administration may talk a very good game – but the results will likely be much less than desired by most.
• I think there will be some very basic changes to the way the U.S. economy works – in ways that might not be apparent for many years.
• The way the USA views itself and the way others view the USA could undergo fundamental changes.
• The next president may become “The October Horse4.”

Those conclusions seem to be dead-on accurate about this current President. I've actually heard and read various things suggesting that he will serve only a partial term. If so, under what conditions would that occur? Assassination has been ruled out by some astrologers, since they don't see that in his chart anytime soon. Perhaps resignation?

If "The October Horse" currently refers to Obama, that's an interesting allusion to the ancient Rome chariot ritual practice. Maybe he'll only serve a partial term because the people will demand he be removed from office? Or after the November midterm elections when Congress completely changes over (which will definitely happen), they will be calling for and instituting measures to impeach him??

Does this sound too far-fetched?

I agree with much of what you said, but for your conclusion that the current President is widely popular. If you look at most of the polls including CNN and other news organizations, his approval rating at this point in his Presidential term is the lowest of any President in decades. Regardless, going to your comment about partial term...if you place his birth in Kenya where it's widely reported that he was born, depending on the city that would move Mars to his 8th house which could represent assassination or a violent death.

[ElenaJ]

Would his (presumed if Kenyan born) 8th house mars also represent the People's money house? Which he is spending at martian speed?

[Frank]

Originally Posted by Vista

If you look at most of the polls including CNN and other news organizations, his approval rating at this point in his Presidential term is the lowest of any President in decades.

This is incorrect. The Wall Street Journal's latest approval rating poll (dated Aug. 2010) shows a 47 percent approval rating for Obama - about what is to be expected based on party divisions). None of the major polling organizations show less than a 40 percent approval rating.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...pproval_rating

Contrast that with George W. Bush's approval rating over time in the Wall Street Journal polls:



I have no wish to turn this into a political debate. I'm registered as an Independent voter and I don't use astrology to back up any political ideology. I just observe, report, and predict.

[dperez3894]

Originally Posted by Kenoshamaensa

Regarding impeachment, there would have to be something fairly serious to impeach him FOR. One can't simply impeach a president to get rid of him. Ergo, one would need to look, I think, for evidence of a serious enough scandal/breaking of the law. Perhaps a comparison between Obama's chart and Nixon's?

There's also the "birth certificate" question that won't go away. If any of it ever turned out true, Obama would be disqualified based on Article II of the U.S. Constitution and all the appointments(Supreme Court justices Satomayor and Kagan, Joe Biden as VP, Hillary as Sec. Of State) he made and bills(Healthcare, etc.) he signed as "President" would be null and void. It would throw the country into chaos and possibly civil war, a scenario that might fit with the upcoming "Saturn return" in Libra for the U.S.

Since Obama was sworn-in during a "void of course" moon, it's possible all of his efforts will come to nothing, thus fitting the scenario of being disqualified as President under Article II.

[dperez3894]

Originally Posted by ElenaJ

Was Nixon impeached or did he resign?
It was Clinton who was impeached. Later repealed.

Nixon resigned before the House passed articles of impeachment against him.

[Kenoshamaensa]

Nixon resigned before he could be impeached. There was an excellent case against him. (Here, we get a little more into what I'm more comfortable with, as a historian. I'm an amateur astrologer and quite unfamiliar with horary, but I'm a professional historian. *grin*) He also used the 1973 occupation of Wounded Knee by AIM and their supporters to redirect the media/country's interest. (That ran through the first part of '73.) While it's not certain unless it actually went to trial, the case against Nixon was serious enough that he chose/was advised to choose resignation.

Clinton was acquitted, and the impeachment trial was problematic on several grounds from the get-go. Nixon is a better comparison, imo, because of the nature of the scandals in question. And Nixon's "rehabilitation" as a president is, imo, a bit premature. The current economic meltdown can, in fact, be traced to a number of Nixon's choices regarding the economy, not least the devaluing of the dollar. He was known, at the time, as "Tricky Dick." Don't turn him into a saint. There is a general tendency for Americans to look at presidencies a few generations back and suddenly they take on the gloss of a simpler, "better" time. Eisenhower was treated the same way. He wasn't a terrible president by any means, but he was hardly the outstanding president he was viewed as being there for a while. Historians tend to be a little more picky/unforgiving. I'm not saying Nixon was a Coolidge, Hoover, Carter, or (2nd) Bush, but don't give him a halo. ;>

[cindah]

Does anyone have any comments on Obama's natal Venus, being opposed by transiting Pluto? Maybe this shows his biggest challange...the us economy.