Dissociate Aspects - what have you got??

[Howl]

I have been incubating this particular thread for a long time
Within days of my debut on the forum I had sparked debate (to which I was but witness) as to whether a planet in Virgo can trine a planet in Gemini. Consensus indicates that in my chart, there is no trine. I was given two reasons. Either that particular 'trine' of mine is void because the orb is too wide (which I agree with), or because planets CAN'T form dissociate aspects. The insightful debate has stuck with me ever since, and I'm determined to learn more!!

A dissociate aspect is where planets are in an aspect by orb, but the signs they are placed in are not in the same aspectual relationship. For example: a planet at 27' Virgo trining a planet at 1' Aquarius. This is a trine of 4' orb, acceptable according to any technical definition of a trine. However, one planet is in Earth, while the other is in Air; they do not share element, modality or gender. How can the energy flow freely between planets with nothing in common by sign? This is a dissociate trine.

For an excellent intro to the nature of aspects see Arian's thread: An Introduction to Element, Modality and Gender. (Arian where is that thread? it should be part of our new virtual classroom! )

For an enlightening discussion of dissociate aspects, try this article, if you haven't already. It introduces the importance of orbs relative to signs in determining aspects. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html#ado

I have three dissociate aspects, which I continue to scrutinise

3H Mars virgo trine 7H Venus Aqua - a trine with nothing in common
3H Pluto libra square 7H Venus Aqua - a square with both planets in air
3H Pluto libra conjunct 4H Jupiter scorpio - conjunction across air/water

The last one straddles Nadir (IC) with a 6' orb. It's probably the least valid according to some, but I am still very interested in figuring out if and how I think it works.

I would love to hear people's experiences or thoughts concerning dissociate aspects. If you do 'count' them, they are much more difficult to read, I think! Here is what skyscript says about them:

Dissociate aspects are considered weakened in effect, or represent a contradictory principle or barrier which needs to be overcome in order for the aspect to fully express itself

So, what do you have?

[johan]

Well Howl,there was a fiery discussion in the thread:Help,strange Mars!
This was my point of view:The nature of the aspects is determined by the mutual relations between the signs where both planets are.
Why is for example a square a sharp conflict aspect?While it is always been formed by planets in two signs which are in mutual conflicting elements.For example:is planet A in a firesign,planet B is 90 degrees,so 3 signs further,in a watersign.The relation is water and fire!That does not work well,cause ór the water extuingishes the fire,ór the fire heats up the fire to steam.Examples:Aries and Cancer,Leo and Scorpio,Sagittarius and Pisces.
The elements earth and fire don't harmonise eather:the earth extuingishes the fire or the fire bakes the earth to stone.Examples:Taurus and Leo,Virgo and Sagittarius,Capricorn and Aries.
Same for air and earth;air blows away the earth or the earths covers the air which leads to suffocation.Examples:Gemini and Virgo,Libra and Capricorn,Aquarius and Taurus.
Finally water and air will give a stormy sea or showers!For example Cancer and Libra,Scorpio and Aquarius,Pisces and Gemini.

An aspect is only an aspect,if the signs in which the planets are,make that aspect
Even if their mutual distance is exactly 90 degrees,but their signs don't make that square,that angle is not valid as a square.
It isn't about the number of degrees according to Cocker,but about the difference of the nature of the elements.

Greetings Johan

[Howl]

Hi Johan,

I see you are somewhat of an expert on the topic That's a lot of information for me to digest on strange mars!! Two well presented, and yes, passionate, sides to the story....I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. I know mine don't act like 'traditional' aspects, but I also feel that they act like 'something', rather than no-aspect. Of course, it's difficult to distinguish, and that's why I'm so interested

[23]

The only one that I can think of and that I do count in my chart is my sun/mercury (Aqu) opposing Saturn (Can), although the saturn isn't say in Leo, which then would a "proper" clash; I still consider this aspect real in my chart because I can feel the seriousness/morosity of saturn sometimes weighing my sun resulting in lack of confidence and seriousnessa at a young age.

[johan]

If you would count only the degrees,I would have a separating trine with Neptune(Scorpio,3rd house) and Sun(Aries,7th house).

With all the info on this aspect,I really cannot think of anything that can make this a valid trine.
Reading about the separating trine between my Moon(Cancer,10th house) and Mercury(Pisces,6th house),it really is there,even with the wide orb!

[Arian Maverick]

For an excellent intro to the nature of aspects see Arian's thread: An Introduction to Element, Modality and Gender. (Arian where is that thread? it should be part of our new virtual classroom! )

Thank you for the props, Howl!

Currently, all of the tutorial threads can be found in the Help with the forums. These include:

• An Introduction to Element, Modality, and Gender
  
• An Introduction to Planetary Aspects for Beginners
  
• A Guide for Beginners - How to Get a Basic Interpretation
  
• Step by Step guide on -- How to insert an image here? --

Arian Maverick

[Manic_Monday]

Sun (3 degr Virgo H8) trine Ascendant (28 degr Sag)
Sun (3 degr Virgo H8) square Mars (28 degr Taurus H5)

This is the first time I hear about dissociate planets. That's what I like about this forum: I learn something new every day! It also makes me feel like a noob at astrology :P

[freedomlover]

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger, Manic.

I thought I knew quite a bit about astrology until I came here. Now I see I don't know jack! But I love it! This is a great learning community, and it all feels like family. Don't it, y'all?

[Shining Ray]

I have had this debate in my head a few times over disassociate aspects, because mathematically there is a trine or square etc. Yet they are out of element -I still count them as aspects, and I have Moon/Mercury in an out of sign trine to Jupiter - but they do act differently and don't feel as powerful as my trines in the same element. The aspect book by Bill Tierney covers this topic and he includes disassociate aspects, but believes often the person doesn't fully recognise their gifts in these types of trines.

[Shining Ray]

As an afterthought I would imagine an out of sign opposition would have difficulty in finding balance. What do you all think? I have a Virgo- Pisces opposition which can be balanced element wise - water feeds the earth. I had a funny thought in my head about these two today - Pisces heals, and is sensitive and if someone falls down she helps them up, but would Virgo advise them carefully not to fall in the first place. Lost my thoughts again on this one.

Small print: I will not be held accountable for these thoughts late at night. Virgo reads small print, I genrally don't .

[gaer]

Originally Posted by Shining Ray

As an afterthought I would imagine an out of sign opposition would have difficulty in finding balance. What do you all think?

I agree, and not only about oppositions.

I have a 12th house Venus/Saturn conjunction. The orb is almost exactly 5 degrees. Saturn in Virgo, Venus in Leo. It's very difficult to think about how such a thing works.

Saturn tends to limit whatever it "touches". We think of Saturn trines as limiting, but in a controlled way that may play out positively without a great deal of work. A conjunction is intense. I think Saturn tends to smother Venus. So what happens when Venus, in proud Leo, is getting "smothered" by Saturn in practical but conservative and quiet Virgo?

I think you get the energy of a conjunction but with a flavor or color of adjacent signs, which are always in stark contrast to each other. The aspect is more complicated, and I think reasonably we can assume more difficult to integrate. There is a greater challenge.

Obviously this is heightened when out-of-sign aspects are very close to being dead on. For instance, one planet at 29 degrees of Leo, the other at 0 of Virgo would be more intense and thus more critical, or so it seems to me.

[Shining Ray]

I do get where your coming from because I have an out of sign conjunction. And I do think is it less straightforward to interpret the aspect than when they are in the same element. Or in the case of the opposition in mutual elements like a 'true' opposition. I do think there is a greater challenge. I have a Cap and Leo opposition between the benefics, they are so different in element and not mutually understanding of each other. It's not a troublesome aspect due to the benefics, but still the balancing of elements isn't the same.

I agree with you, that you do get the energy of the conjunction but different colouring, and yes stark contrast to one another - yours being warm and expressive Leo to your more analytical and critical Virgo planet.

Thanks for your thoughts on this Gaer

[gaer]

Originally Posted by Shining Ray

I do get where your coming from because I have an out of sign conjunction. And I do think is it less straightforward to interpret the aspect than when they are in the same element. Or in the case of the opposition in mutual elements like a 'true' opposition. I do think there is a greater challenge. I have a Cap and Leo opposition between the benefics, they are so different in element and not mutually understanding of each other. It's not a troublesome aspect due to the benefics, but still the balancing of elements isn't the same.

I agree with you, that you do get the energy of the conjunction but different colouring, and yes stark contrast to one another - yours being warm and expressive Leo to your more analytical and critical Virgo planet.

This idea makes the idea of the 29th degree of any sign (the Anaretic) begin to make some logical sense, since it is highly likely that a planet at that degree will form a major aspect with another planet at close 0 degrees. So this emphasizes the "out-of-signness".

[Shining Ray]

There is a book published on this one degree. Its nice because my Mars at 29 Aquarius gets one on one attention, not sure if the author explains the signs, planets and aspects. I did a topic on the 29th degree once, but was unsure of it's real evidence. James Van Praggh (forgot how to spell his name) has Mercury (I think) at 29 degrees in the 8th house (psychic house). A sex therapist who has knowledge on all areas of sex has Jupiter at the 29th in sexy Aries in the 12th house of healing. Mars and Uranus are conjunct in Aries too. A female author from the past had Venus in Capricorn 29th in the publishers 9th house. A dance teacher who was called "A master of Dance" has Mars in Pisces 29 degrees in the 5th house. Some examples are more obvious than others, and I also read this is a critical lifetime, and the traits and skills of the sign, that are attained over lifetimes (if your fall into past astrology) needs to be expressed. I am still debating if a person is skilled or not in the 29th degree. I like to call it the end of a cycle, being in the last degree of a sign. Observing the Planets reaching this 29th degree helps in learning the meaning of degrees. Perhaps I should pay more attention to my progressed Moon or other planets at these points - personally and worldwide. The outer planets in the chart at a critical degree I haven't observed any real difference. I would have to look at how the energy was expressed through the house. I don't know why the house is neglected in degree readings, it fathoms me a bit, because this is the area of expression for the planet.

Well anyway back to your original point of the 29th degree aspect before I trailed off into my 29th degree study . Yes a major aspect to the beginning of another sign really does emphasise it's "out of signness" I will have to steal that phrase, but I will definitely be done for copyright now. I have Mars in Aquarius 29 inconjunct Jupiter in Leo 0, they are naturally opposing signs and so the inconjunct may work slightly differently for me. The end of one sign and the beginning of another. A good observation to make.