gender and astrology

[flea]

I thought I would share an idea I have been pondering. It seems clear that you cant extract a gender from an astrology chart....Yet men and women have differences (controversial maybe to some- but this is my personal experience in my present moment).

So my wonderings wandered to how an astrology chart might differ through the filter of a different gender.

Astrology tends towards non geneder specific interpretations of chart factors....yet (generalisation) women have a more social intuitive outlook....and men well not that I can really know....but from my standpoint a more practical cognitive approach.

So I wonder if men work the yang energies of signs better, and women work the yin signs better.....I think it is a question worth rainsing and discussing.

FleaXX

[Arian Maverick]

I don't know if this will help much, but I had a vocational astrology reading from a professional astrologer a few years ago, and she said that she interpreted the energies of my natal chart differently because I am a young woman and not a young man. For example, she said that my chart shows some technical ability, but I am more likely to express this ability by assisting others with technical issues than by fixing computers, for example.

Arian Maverick

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by Arian Maverick

I don't know if this will help much, but I had a vocational astrology reading from a professional astrologer a few years ago, and she said that she interpreted the energies of my natal chart differently because I am a young woman and not a young man. For example, she said that my chart shows some technical ability, but I am more likely to express this ability by assisting others with technical issues than by fixing computers, for example.

Arian Maverick

IN this day and age that may be seen as sexist as more and more women are taking on male roles. That is very limiting analysis I would suggest.
Sure we have to take our Venus and Mars differently as male or female and our Moon and Sun too.

[RayAustin]

Originally Posted by Claire19

IN this day and age that may be seen as sexist as more and more women are taking on male roles. That is very limiting analysis I would suggest.
Sure we have to take our Venus and Mars differently as male or female and our Moon and Sun too.

That is a very limiting analysis.. seeing how I'm a female that builds/fixes computers .. anyone a little intelligent could do it if they wanted to. There's no gender requirement.

[flea]

I think Arian is just making an analogy......an example of likelihood ..... still giving the option of both circumstances yet saying there is a society bias....that would make sense to me. I really dont see anything at all sexist in the language, as it presents both ideas but with a tendency in a particular direction.

This subect will challenge ideas of sexism I believe. We are not saying what is or is not possible but what is likey...in a statistical sense.

There is a whole range of gender spectrum in the world that I am not trying to address in this thread...because I am trying to get a handle on what I feel is a complex issue and dont want to take too complex too quickly.

For example....what kind of differnces would be seen in someone with pisces sun and scorpio moon....would the genders tend to handle it differently.

So getting back on thread....what are people's experiences of this question...is it a question that you ask yourself or is it under the radar.

FleaXX

[RayAustin]

No one is taking it personal. I'm well aware it was an example, as was what I said... an example.

[flea]

RayAustin,
Has it been a question for you at all in your astrological discovery??

FleaXX

[RayAustin]

Originally Posted by flea

RayAustin,
Has it been a question for you at all in your astrological discovery??

FleaXX

It all comes down to personal experience, really. Some people will have bad experiences that will make them atypical. My mother, Moon in Capricorn, and I've never seen her cry (natally I have Moon in Cancer). Now you would think a male Moon in Capricorn would be more likely to be like that. But she's also had experiences that must have decided it's better to be numb to than cry. I've seen anger, happiness, but never any expression of sadness.

As for Sun in Pisces, I'd reckon not much difference, but it depends on all so much. The aspects, rising signs can color that very differently male or female. But I have met a Pisces couple, and ironically it was the male that exhibited more female piscean qualities and the female acted a little more 'macho'.

So no, it hasn't been a question in my discovery as it comes down to life experience. I imagine if I was an older astrologer (50's+) I might have a different mentality growing up in a different era.

[flea]

Thanks for sharing Ray, I have moon in cancer tooo!! I agree experiences are very individual and colour eberything too....I am just pondering the differences. Early on I was stauchly there are no differences we can all do it......life has taught be their are differences and we are different for a reason...though what that is is still in progress.

I suppose another element that comes into it for me is my explorations into energy healing which seem to indicate that men have a stronger energy field and are less susceptible to outside interference if you like, where as women pickup the subtlties.

FleaXX

[RayAustin]

Originally Posted by flea

I suppose another element that comes into it for me is my explorations into energy healing which seem to indicate that men have a stronger energy field and are less susceptible to outside interference if you like, where as women pickup the subtlties.

That also coincides with the general Men/Mars penetrative, outward and piercing persona and the Female/Moon watery receptive persona. Who knows, what if women are a slightly more higher percentage of water than men? Who knows the intricacies of the testosterone/estrogen hormones, if they have any metaphysical weight to them. That doesn't surprise me, as I definitely support the belief that women are like beacons of energy, naturally designed to be more 'tuned in' then men..

[flea]

yep....I feel on the same page with you where ever we are heading...

ooo metaphysical properties of hormones...I like the sound of that...will ponder and investigate.

I suspect that there is no indication of sex in astrology....just that the physcail body works the available energies in a slightly different vwein.

FleaXX

[RayAustin]

Originally Posted by flea

ooo metaphysical properties of hormones...I like the sound of that...will ponder and investigate.

It might sound weird, but people who were male and took estrogen or female and vice versa say they experience after time the (intuition/coldness..etc) traits of their counterparts. So there must be some reason for that..

Originally Posted by flea

I suspect that there is no indication of sex in astrology....just that the physcail body works the available energies in a slightly different vwein.

I think we're both using the word sex and gender interchangably, when they're actually a tad different. I see gender though besides being the social role as also the 'sex' that person sees them-self to be which isn't always the physical sex.


Apparently it might be the mother who controls 'gender', while the father through sperm specifies the sex. The reason I say gender is though while allegedly the father chooses the sex via chromosome, that would get altered by the pre-natal environment. If the mother was a heavy meat eater (especially american meat) that could be a reason why a little girl might end up chemically developing more boyish--conjecture--but interesting conjecture nonetheless! Also, I've read the 12th house being attributed to the pre-natal environment, so then is it really farfetched to say that the 12th house can be indicators of 'gender'? .. In my reasoning, it's worth some investigation.

[flea]

ahh I see what you saying....a physcially assigned gender, and what the person feels themselves to be is there sex.

Interesting questions about who determines the gender and sex of the child. 12th house...pre-natal...could be, it is a little bit outsde time and references, two beings in one...and people do see the auric differences in pregnant women. Which maybe connects them to spirit in some way.

As you say it might be worth a bit of discussion

fleaXX

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by RayAustin

That is a very limiting analysis.. seeing how I'm a female that builds/fixes computers .. anyone a little intelligent could do it if they wanted to. There's no gender requirement.

I agree it was......women are welders, carpenters, drive trucks and earthmoving equipment, all while doing their nails....only joking about the last part....

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by RayAustin

It might sound weird, but people who were male and took estrogen or female and vice versa say they experience after time the (intuition/coldness..etc) traits of their counterparts. So there must be some reason for that..



I think we're both using the word sex and gender interchangably, when they're actually a tad different. I see gender though besides being the social role as also the 'sex' that person sees them-self to be which isn't always the physical sex.


Apparently it might be the mother who controls 'gender', while the father through sperm specifies the sex. The reason I say gender is though while allegedly the father chooses the sex via chromosome, that would get altered by the pre-natal environment. If the mother was a heavy meat eater (especially american meat) that could be a reason why a little girl might end up chemically developing more boyish--conjecture--but interesting conjecture nonetheless! Also, I've read the 12th house being attributed to the pre-natal environment, so then is it really farfetched to say that the 12th house can be indicators of 'gender'? .. In my reasoning, it's worth some investigation.

It has been lately refuted that the father determines the sex. When conception is made on a yin moon it will apparently produce daughters and on a yang moon, sons. Many work on that premise. I am investigating pre natal astrology right now...

[RayAustin]

Originally Posted by Claire19

It has been lately refuted that the father determines the sex.

I'm really not surprised.

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by flea

ahh I see what you saying....a physcially assigned gender, and what the person feels themselves to be is there sex.

Interesting questions about who determines the gender and sex of the child. 12th house...pre-natal...could be, it is a little bit outsde time and references, two beings in one...and people do see the auric differences in pregnant women. Which maybe connects them to spirit in some way.

As you say it might be worth a bit of discussion

fleaXX

I have heard that with males born homosexual for instance that they dont receive the second shot of male hormone in the womb, only the first. We are all born with nipples because the basic sex or gender is female. Other yin planets I would suggest how feminine they may appear.

I am still getting over ROck Hudson being a prolific homosexual and indeed died of that disease. He was the epitome of the brawny tall male in movies. There were some rumours about John Wayne too.

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by RayAustin

I'm really not surprised.

Yes apparently it is not entirely up to the father. So the idea in ancient time that women were "blamed" for the sex of their children when sons were wanted and only daughters appeared, may not be far off the mark although unfair as women could not control that without the moon sign knowledge for instance.

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by RayAustin

That also coincides with the general Men/Mars penetrative, outward and piercing persona and the Female/Moon watery receptive persona. Who knows, what if women are a slightly more higher percentage of water than men? Who knows the intricacies of the testosterone/estrogen hormones, if they have any metaphysical weight to them. That doesn't surprise me, as I definitely support the belief that women are like beacons of energy, naturally designed to be more 'tuned in' then men..

It is true that water and psychic abilities belong to the yin energy, typically female but I know many water yin dominated men who are very receptive and psychic and not necessarily homosexual either.

Men are conditioned to deal with the tangible and practical more and women are probably "Allowed" by society to be more psychic etc. We all have gut instincts and that is not exclusively "feminine Intuition".

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by RayAustin

It all comes down to personal experience, really. Some people will have bad experiences that will make them atypical. My mother, Moon in Capricorn, and I've never seen her cry (natally I have Moon in Cancer). Now you would think a male Moon in Capricorn would be more likely to be like that. But she's also had experiences that must have decided it's better to be numb to than cry. I've seen anger, happiness, but never any expression of sadness.

As for Sun in Pisces, I'd reckon not much difference, but it depends on all so much. The aspects, rising signs can color that very differently male or female. But I have met a Pisces couple, and ironically it was the male that exhibited more female piscean qualities and the female acted a little more 'macho'.

So no, it hasn't been a question in my discovery as it comes down to life experience. I imagine if I was an older astrologer (50's+) I might have a different mentality growing up in a different era.

I know several Moon in Capricorn men and women and while they may tear up I have never seen them actually sob or cry out loud.

I think they discipline their emotions as a protection. It is not proper to display your feelings especially in public, they feel. Needless to say they all have arthritis. ahhh ahh..

[eternalautumn]

Originally Posted by Claire19

I am still getting over ROck Hudson being a prolific homosexual and indeed died of that disease.

He died of homosexuality? That's interesting...

[RayAustin]

Originally Posted by eternalautumn

He died of homosexuality? That's interesting...

Hehe.

[Miss Kitten]

I've seen charts that indicate how someone will express his or her gender. I know one person who is female, but who is Scorpio rising with Mars on the ASC, aspecting the sun, moon, and Mercury. She has red hair (surprise, surprise) and as a child she hated wearing dresses, skirts, etc., and preferred to play with toy guns and tanks and didn't even want to touch baby dolls.

[Sagmoon]

Originally Posted by Miss Kitten

I've seen charts that indicate how someone will express his or her gender. I know one person who is female, but who is Scorpio rising with Mars on the ASC, aspecting the sun, moon, and Mercury. She has red hair (surprise, surprise) and as a child she hated wearing dresses, skirts, etc., and preferred to play with toy guns and tanks and didn't even want to touch baby dolls.

Yes, I think aspects to mars have something to do with it. I have never had enough charts to analyse, but I noticed from the ones that I had that men had more aspects to mars. These included not only those aspects to personal planets but the outer planets as well. Also, I noticed that many men have mars moon aspects. I think something to do with pluto and other planets that can be, and/or should be, considered masculine. Neptune I think can make one more feminine, etc.. Likewise the signs which are ruled by mars; scoprio and aries. Yes, I'm thinking that a person with predominant scorpio energy will be more masculine than the other negative and prob positive signs.

I don't know if the usual division of negative and positive signs is very influencial but it might have an affect too. However, I don't know if it works in the way that a gender can be determined. Surely there are lots of women born with no water or earth in their charts..? However, where as they would probably exhibit the traditional characteristics of positive signs, they will remain feminine but not in the same way that feminine signs are, if that makes sense.

[Sagmoon]

PS If it's not direct aspects to Mars, then somehow Mars is still predominates in the chart of a male, being either exalted by location or overall position or else.