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Old 07-19-2006, 09:19 PM
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Arian Maverick Arian Maverick is offline
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The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

I have been reviewing the series of interpretations I received from Canopus and discovered an alarming trend: nearly all of my natal planets form aspects with Black Moon Lilith!

Opposition Sun-Black Moon, orb = 0653'
Opposition Moon-Black Moon, orb = 0330'
Opposition Mercury-Black Moon, orb = 0749'
Opposition Venus-Black Moon, orb = 0701'
Trine Mars-Black Moon, orb = 0637'
Trine Jupiter-Black Moon, orb = 0425'
Square Saturn-Black Moon, orb = 0454'
Square Uranus-Black Moon, orb = 0323'
Square Neptune-Black Moon, orb = 0339'
Opposition Black Moon-Ascendant, orb = 0732'

What should I make of this?

Arian Maverick
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Old 07-19-2006, 10:34 PM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

Take heart, A.M.
Sue Simmons (3 Liliths website) only uses orbs of max. 3 degrees and only for conjunctions!
I keep to 6 degr. orbs for major aspects, 4 and 1 degrees for the minor ones, and don't include point to point only (e.g. BML to angle/nodes/Arabian parts etc.).

Your list should now be cut by half at least.

F.
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Old 07-19-2006, 11:30 PM
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

Yes..

This is interesting reading about this aspect of the human psyche.. this rather independant Moon aspect..

I relate to this archetype too as it is conjunct my natal Cap Moon(9th).. trine my Taurus Sun(2nd).. also sqaure my Aries Asc.. yes denying Adam his 'divine right' is interesting.. my mother is rather different.. she 'left home' once to live on her own in a big city for a few months.. when we were younger.. before returning for us kids she said.. & once dressed up as a witch at work for Halloween.. also she introduced me to the benefits of natural medicine.. she's a double Pisces(Sun/Moon).. square Uranus.. with Merc/Venus/Sth Node in Aquarius.. trine Mars/Sat in Gemini.. yes she does like to get her way.. so who needs to ask others what they want! So she has Black Moon Lilith opp her Sun/Moon.. so she has it too.. also squ Uranus.. She's not all bad.. just 'a bit' controlling...

So how does this 'archetype' speak to you then?

Last edited by Solastro; 07-19-2006 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 07-20-2006, 01:17 AM
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

Quote:
So how does this 'archetype' speak to you then?
Although located in the diplomatic sign of Libra, I believe my natal Lilith reflects my inner defiance of patriarchal society, especially the universal scorning of the feminine consciousness. Throughout the centuries, women have been taught to be ashamed of their bodies and their sexuality, to deny the existence of an untamed part of themselves that is beautiful.

This is something of a deviance from the original topic, yet as I was reading through these posts, I immediately thought of a description I once read in a piece of Harry Potter fanfiction titled Everybody's Fool:

Quote:
Potter was gorgeous. Not in the way of a model, or the way Draco Malfoy was the obvious product of centuries of breeding. But beautiful the way a tiger is, all deadly strength and barely leashed power, kept tame only through the most intensive effort.
This is exactly how I interpret Black Moon Lilith--a source of great power derived from primal instincts. However, I believe I should clarify that although the tone of this story is inherently dark, I do not believe the true essence of Lilith's power is intwined with this darkness.

Lilith knows she is beautiful, even as others turn away in revulsion and embarrassment as she bleeds with the moon or gives birth to a child; she embraces her sexuality completely, unapologetic towards refined society and its taboos surrounding the female body. Her image has been grotesquely distorted, yet she eagerly awaits the day she will be welcomed back into paradise as Adam's undisputed equal, glorified for who she is--a goddess.

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Old 07-20-2006, 10:46 AM
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

Quote:
But beautiful the way a tiger is, all deadly strength and barely leashed power, kept tame only through the most intensive effort
.


Interesting, this quote. M. Kelley Hunter, who has become a conscious-raiser of Black Moon Lilith in a chart expresses more or less the same in her TMA article in April 1999.

I have tried to look at Black Moon called Lilith in a different way and, thus, get away from the Lilith myth, as such. Astronomically and, thus, astrologically as that feeling part of ourselves that, in harsh aspect, is oppressed and furthest from manifestation and physical expression ( between Earth and Moon) because it goes against everything that Saturn.....physical manifestation... deems civilly acceptable.

I compare Black Moon Lilith to the first words of Genesis: 'In the beginning, Earth was without form'... which I translate as instinct ruled over the physical. Therefore, I treat BML not as a full-blooded woman fighting off Adam's authority but as uninhibited first nature innocence; that which comes naturally. Try watching young children and how their instinctive natures (and often talents!) are curbed by discipline and rules of 'how to act' and 'what should and shouldn't be' . Something natural inside them is oppressed and lies dormant as Moon ( or submissive Eve) takes over. They start playing a role in order to fit in and FEEL accepted. By doing so, they deny a true part of themselves its existence. This is why I often see BML as the created false image people have of themselves in order to conform. Feeling other than they truly are can create the demons associated with Lilith that they live with until they admit that this part of themselves exists and allow it into their lives.

I don't work with stories but with actual facts of life.
I have 3 children, girl, boy, girl. When they were young, the youngest was teased incessibly by her siblings. She was often pushed away with the words, "you're not part of this, you can't join in." It became her 'demon' and, without our realising it, she underwent psychological problems of 'not belonging'. Thank goodness we have a good family relationship and, at 20 (2nd Lilith return), she finally confronted her siblings with their actions and the effect it had had upon her. Big tears and apologies all round, it wasn't as she saw it and was NEVER meant that way, just teasing, but its effect could have been devastating had my daughter not found the inner courage to admit what was bothering her, so that she FELT 'taken back into the fold' and 'complete'.
I perceive Black Moon Lilith as undergoing the same.

Observation has shown that, in Libra, BML seems to be about FEELING socially accepted and treated as an equal. It was interesting to see in Nelson Mandela's chart, that BML is in Libra conjunct Mars (if memory serves me).
O.k. He pushed Wilful Winnie aside when no longer needed but, as far as equality is concerned, his BML semed to prove its point.

F.
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Old 07-20-2006, 11:53 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

I have BML in Virgo square Uranus too, Solastro! But it goes with a very strong Earthy Side.
Using natural herbs for medicines sounds a lovely way to work with 'first nature' BML in Virgo. With her Sun/Moon in Pisces and 'airy' side, is your mother perceived as 'a mystical woman' or 'witch' by others, or just plain 'weird'. Is she a one-woman-crusader for seemingly lost causes?
Does she have any 'physical imperfections' or tendancies that she feels set her apart from other people? Most of the charts I have with BML in Virgo ( and they seem to be the majority!) incline the people to see themselves as imperfect in some way because of something others have said/done to them.
A few are very aware of the attraction their physical body arouses and take care of it. Some see it as a vessel that is used/abused.

Sun opposing BML. Did she grow up without a father figure?
Moon opposing BML and square Uranus. Did she have no bonding or close relationship at all with her natural mother?

My BML-Uranus makes me feel independent in the sense that I am not difficult, I just perceive things differently than the norm allows .

Your own BML in Cap. conjunct Moon would make me think you 'can take very good care of myself, thank you very much' to the extent that there is a definite feeling of going it alone and not needing anyone. Got a good pair of legs? Tend to wear dark colours that accentuate.....even to 'the cloth?' In the 9th house. Is your ancestry (on mum's side?) of cultural traditional significance? Is/was your schooling controlled by its religious significance?
Moon in Capricorn is probably why you consider mum a 'controlling factor' but which BML would have difficulty accepting.

I'd be grateful for any feedback....for comparisons with other charts that show the same aspects.

F.
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:08 PM
Francesca Francesca is offline
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Smile Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

Of what relation or significance, if any, is the Priapus point to BML?
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:21 PM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesca
Of what relation or significance, if any, is the Priapus point to BML?
I don't think anyone has ever done any research into it. My study observations have led me to believe that BML's dormant energy 'emerges' or 'surfaces' through the opposing sign/house.
As examples only; a friend has BML in Libra in her 1st house and was married to a very dominant Aries Sun. She has a Mars-Pluto square as well. He controlled her every movement. She once told me that 'I put up with it until someone inside me saw the unfairness of my situation and I just knew I had to find the courage ( Aries) from somewhere and act to exist in my own right.' She left him, met and married her 2nd husband (Gemini on 9th house cusp for 2nd marriages. He's a Gemini Sun!), with whom she FEELS complete as an equal partner in a relationship in which she shares everything, mentally and emotionally speaking.
I strongly feel that my own 12th house natal BML in Virgo has surfaced through the 6th house in Pisces. A male friend has the same and almost drove himself to death by drowning through drink because of the seductive wiles of an unfaithful wife. Somewhere inside him arose the strength to escape from her, whereby he began to see and sense things. He is now a successful psychic and teacher. Both us share this deep feeling sense of a mission ( or lost cause) and finding the faith to act upon it.

Whether the 'emerging' and 'surfacing' of energy through BML's opposing sign is actually Priapus working, I cannot say. It is something I have considered and is possible, of course, although it has always been BML that makes the natal, transiting and/or progressed aspect.

I'm open to any and all feedback.

F.
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Old 07-21-2006, 07:45 PM
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

of course John Frawley would say that all these indications are visible using normal techniques and anything the black moon shows would be shown by planetary positions.
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Old 07-21-2006, 09:42 PM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

Quote:
Originally Posted by virloli
of course John Frawley would say that all these indications are visible using normal techniques and anything the black moon shows would be shown by planetary positions.
And he wouldn't be the only one!
Such comments are the bane of every astrologer who works with Black Moon Lilith, mostly because those who make them have never attempted long-term research or observation to discover any differences. But traditionalists say something similar regarding the use of outer planets, tropical astrologers challenge siderealists, the astro. jury is still out regarding the use of asteroids and fixed stars, and astrology doesn't appear to work unless declination is taken into account. Such challenges of thought keep astrology alive and kicking.

I would personally challenge that BML's (non)influence could be shown by the planetary positions for the simple reason that the planets are physical matter and ....as above, so below .... must refer to manifestational existence, even Neptune's manifestation of illusion. But BML is not a physical object and just because it cannot be physically seen doesn't mean it cannot make its presence FELT! (And that's a Sun, Moon, Ascendant in Earth saying that!).

But that's just my quirk. J.F has some of his own, too.

F.
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Old 08-04-2006, 05:44 PM
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

My son has Lilith @ 20 deg. Libra in his first house Trine mars in Gemini in the 9th. His Lilith is conjunct my Uranus @ 22deg Libra in my first god! I sure hope he doesn't percieve me as some kind of witch!..lol

Last edited by pisceskitty; 09-12-2006 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 08-04-2006, 06:26 PM
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

Fascinating subject! I have studied the archetype in general for several years, and only recently found out about Black Moon Lilith. Eureka! Personally, I feel in this day and age, that BML is a very important part of chart interpretation. It is one of the main archetypes that is being healed on a personal and planetary scale.

Canopus? Is this something accessible by google? (my main source of information. )
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Old 10-12-2006, 07:20 PM
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

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Old 10-15-2006, 05:43 PM
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

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Old 10-19-2006, 08:44 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

Hi Everyone,
Forgive the delay in replies but I have been out of action for a while, as per med. astro. post elsewhere.

I can't find the thread in which Howl placed the question about Black Moon Lilith's 'hole' representing only part and not all of the qualities of a sign that may be self-denied, so I hope it's o.k. to answer via this thread.

I have seen quite a number of charts with heavily packed signs including BML. As with Howl's own chart, the planets in the sign are in different houses. What I have observed is that it is BML's position in the HOUSE and the aspects it makes from there that is of consequence as to how the sign qualities make their presence felt within the individual, even though they may seem non-existent in and to the outer world. The qualities of the sign in the adjoining house can manifest through the planets within them.

I have a number of examples of BML in the 5th house that has correlated to children. In the female charts the mother was a single parent, attracted to lovers outside her culture, yet rearing her children born of them without them. There has been an association with a disconnection with one's father. The one who was 'there' but 'wasn't there', rather than not being around at all.
I have a number of examples of BML in Sagittarius. Each has referred to either non-manifestation or non-recognition of one's 'speciality' in one's country of birth, yet manifestation of recognition beyond its boundaries. The influence of an indigenuous people has shown itself to be extremely strong with BML in the Sag.-Gemini axis.
I have examples of sign-packed charts including BML in which the aspect(s) made to BML from a particular house coincided with that which did not physically, mentally, or emotionally manifest....or to something of which they were never informed or did not know about, according to the meaning of BML's house.
A great many examples of BML to Moon have correlated with a tendancy to forego having children, often as a result of the lack of emotional bonding with the natural mother.

Just as with 'normal' astrology, BML's influence can refer to so much, but it all boils down to a natural instinctive quality striving to find its way to the surface. It's the openness of people that enables me to gather more information, of which this group is a very fertile source and has my eternal gratitude .

F.
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Old 10-19-2006, 08:52 AM
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

CharmVirgo wrote:
Quote:
That IS me. I am a horrible person, I would be arrested for my thoughts and feelings.
Which makes you a lot better than most 'normal' people in the world, who refuse to admit to themselves that they aren't perfect! It's the most natural of feelings to have dislikes as well as likes, hates as well as love. Admitting them allows you to deal with them and their source. I have yet to meet anyone who walks around with a natural halo above their head....but so many who attempt to keep the one they think to have, polished and shining.

F.
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Old 10-19-2006, 12:13 PM
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Exclamation Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

Charmvirgo, I found myself very affected by your story, but need time to digest it. Are you protective of your chart, or would you consider posting or sending it to me? I would like to understand your situation better.
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:35 PM
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

Horrible people never think they're horrible. They don't introspect. The fact that you even ask the question suggests that you're not nearly has horrible as you think. Maybe you've done more digging into "horriblenss" than others, so you're aware.
Don't judge your chart this way. I'd never say this to a client, nor to myself. Maybe you're just a bona fide member of the human race.

There's the worst in the best of us, and the best in the worst of us.

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Old 11-09-2008, 12:50 AM
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

Canopus was a free downloadable software - it kind of died with Windows 98.

But I've found its successor - Clairvision Virtual Astrologer - is just as good, if not better - it's an online software and it's free.

http://astrology.clairvision.org/

Click on 'Clairvision Virtual Astrologer' for the software.

The site also has a free astrology course, that they say is still being added to.

I haven't seen anything like this before - it's a complete astrology software, all online. Has anyone else used it?
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Old 12-07-2008, 12:06 AM
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

Hi there does anyone know about Dark moon Lilith and death? I ask this because I am on another forum astrologically studying the tragic death of a 2 and half year old at the hands of her Mom. She natally had Sun/Mer/ Black moon conjunction and When Mars conjuncted her ascendant and conjuncted her Sun Mer Black moon she was killed by her Mom...Any insight would be so helpful I admire so many of you Thanks in advance!
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Old 12-07-2008, 12:32 AM
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarrieLee
Hi there does anyone know about Dark moon Lilith and death? I ask this because I am on another forum astrologically studying the tragic death of a 2 and half year old at the hands of her Mom. She natally had Sun/Mer/ Black moon conjunction and When Mars conjuncted her ascendant and conjuncted her Sun Mer Black moon she was killed by her Mom...Any insight would be so helpful I admire so many of you Thanks in advance!
I don't know about Dark moon Lilith, and you've found some interesting correlations.

I just wanted to ad a note of caution about looking for the time of death. As a vedic astrologer, I've studied this in depth, and it is very very difficult to find. I've found it in retrospect only... after much work and many calculations.
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Old 12-07-2008, 01:59 AM
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

'Thanks it is a truly interesting though extremely tragic case...Baby's body hasn't been recovered but all indications (decomp in the trunk of car) say she passed...at mom's hands. I am so curious to know from people more advanced than I if Black Moon Lilith has anything to do with death. Vedic astrology has always fascinated me, I use western
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Old 12-07-2008, 03:45 PM
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

Thanks so much!!
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Old 12-08-2008, 07:56 AM
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Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

Hi CarrieLee,
As you can see from previous comments on this thread, I study the position and effect of the formlessness of and within MEAN Black Moon Lilith (shall now continue with its reference as BML). As this is a calculated point and not a physical planet, its position has been observed to relate to strong inner experiences of a non-physical rather than outer events of a physical nature.
About 8 years ago someone asked a similar question to you, as the group had also found correlations with BML and times of decease. The 'non-physical' aspect of BML's many guises aroused my interest in their study and I began to look whether there was any truth to it! I have not been entirely surprised.

It's necessary to have a different mind focus (without being crazy ) when looking at any influences from BML. Its position is significant of something that does not physically exist and I believe this to be a major key to the understanding of its meaning.
How and under whatever circumstances, the act of decease is a physical occurance that correlates with planetary action at a specific time. The individual ceases to exist as a physical entity. People often refer to such times as 'giving up the ghost', meaning the release of the spirit, or 'no longer with us', meaning the physical presence, after which the individual becomes, and/or returns to, a state of formlessness. Depending upon how this physical decease would be experienced by a person in their final moments and/or how the decease is inwardly experienced by others, can be suggestive (I can't prove anything ) of a correlation with natal, transit, or progressed BML. The transits are very accurate, usually within a few days of exactitude.

It was very astute of your group to pick up on this correlation. Keep going, check if, why, and when you find similar correlations and you may have found the proof. Attempting to prove it to a sceptical astrological society is something else.

Frisiangal
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Old 02-26-2009, 02:36 AM
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Arrow Re: The Influence of Natal Aspects to Black Moon Lilith

well, well..

if i havent stumbled onto the right place at the right time.
lilith has some quite significant aspects in my chart, i think.

(if ur reading this kingsley, im sorry but i cant afford your services. we're in a recession!)


im now currently trying to figure out why i had a dream of having sex with a woman when quite frankly, i found it disgusting. someone, in a blog i posted (diff site) suggested lilith visiting me in my sleep and perhaps that my short lived masturbation free phase was probably not the way to go and she's trying to reach out to me.. someone else suggested perhaps paying attention more to the female role and not being scared of the vaj and maybe coming to love a woman.. (NOT HAPPENIN! not interested in the vaj, thank u!) last but not least, someone else suggest suppressing my 'bisexuality'... yeah... i dont think thats the case either.

just look at her mouth..
http://www.fosters-home.com/clipart/.../Duchess_2.png

see what i mean? thanks, really.
but no thanks.

so well... what better way to ask fellow like minded spirits what her nice trine with your neptune is all about correct?.. and im not sure but i think transit lilith is in conjunction with my natal neptune and transit pluto at the moment.. idk


is there any help around here?




http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...1235191878.jpg

Last edited by SteamyWeenie; 02-26-2009 at 02:48 AM.
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