Do I have any gay indicators in my chart?

[PD187540]

Originally Posted by Surprise

Do I have any indicators of being white?

Ban that member

[Inconjunct]

There are more right-handed people than left-handed people, so what are the indicators for left-handedness. What are the indicators for white skin or brown hair or green eyes? Any indicators for being heterosexual?

No, it's offensive to suggest there would be.

[RockFish]

If we are going to point the homosexual indicators in a chart, it's only fair to do the same with hetero ones.

What would they be?

[PD187540]

Originally Posted by RockFish

If we are going to point the homosexual indicators in a chart, it's only fair to do the same with hetero ones.

What would they be?

For every time the heteros have bashed the homos over the centuries, maybe they don't deserve any indicators. Homosexuals are indeed the special ones

[tikana]

Peeps

what about metrosexuals

T

[tikana]

hey T

hitler was a male prostitute at one point
http://brainmind.com/Hitler3.html

T

[Modcleopatra]

Originally Posted by EJ53

I think the member was stating only that "God does not care whether we are gay/white/male/female/transexual/heterosexual/bisexual/black/brown/yellow/red...so, why would He/She provide astrological indicators for them?"

EJ

EJ I have a question for you. I know you were only speaking and clarifying for another individual but I noticed that since you understood this point so well, if we could explore this direction with it.

What about how life impacts us in certain ways based on these ways of being identified?

To expand further:

I am a Woman, my life has impacted me a number of ways based on this fact. So if I turn this around and say my chart is a reflection of me and my life, then my chart must also include something about my experience as a Woman in this lifetime. Therefore there must be some indication that I am experiencing life in a certain way that can point to my experience as a Woman.

Perhaps then, Goddess/God gave us indicators for these exact categories of identity but more specifically through the experience of these as such, in a highly specific way. :shrugs: The problem I think comes in more when we try to make generalized statements, either about the experiences of people in these categories of identity, or through finding aspects which point to an across-the-board "this is a definitely the gay indicator." It just makes for a bad climate in the social world, to do this to people, and it also really rejects some of the more esoteric qualities of astrology.

I know it can be rather comforting, and it also can be personally qualifying to say, "oh I am gay, and here is where my chart indicates that." But I don't think we can turn this around and say this therefore makes everyone gay who has this aspect.

So EJ, I guess I wasn't really asking you a question, but more sort of dissecting my own personal concerns with the "Gay Aspect," or the idea that Goddess/God doesn't care about these parts of us and therefore they don't show up in the chart. I happen to think that maybe Goddess/God should care very much about these parts of who are, because so much global and social damage has been done with what we as humans with a certain kind of power to manifest and create, have made this to mean.

And then we can eventually turn this around and say, to heck with these categorizations, what purpose did they ever serve in the first place? I recognize the need to make a distinction between the Male Bodied and the Female Bodied person, but even that line gets blurred.

If anything Astrology should serve the purpose of self-reflection and self-awareness which can be related to our categorical identity assignments, but also stand outside of those places, inherent more in our spiritual sides and spiritual qualities.


Mod.

[RockFish]

Originally Posted by tikana

Peeps

what about metrosexuals

T

Can I guess?

Mars conjunct Venus, Mars in Libra.

[RockFish]

OMG, LOL, I just saw Cristiano Ronaldo's bday (he's my reference in the metrosexual department) and he has Mars conjunct Venus in Aries, hahahahaha

[tikana]

LOL Rockfish

[Modcleopatra]

Originally Posted by EJ53

Only Egos care about these things.


EJ

"[...]Religions/Philosophies, such as Hinduism and Buddhism, have traditionally held to the view that in order for an individual to fully benefit from their practice it was important to lessen or eliminate one's individual desires. Such practice was sometimes referred to as the "death of the ego" in order to emphasize its importance. However, the relatively recent popularity of East-meets-West spirituality in Western cultures tends to emphasize the acceptance and transformation of one's ego rather than its death." [Jungian theory to embrace one's shadow: perversity of drives to compell Ego to behave in a selfish way/undermining way to achieve destructive aims of the Ego, could then be seen as a safe and accepting harbor to desires which are neither alien nor abominable but must be embraced as part of the whole of one's being... my words here. Thus once embraced can be absorbed like the dying of a cell in the body to be reassigned into the chemical sphere and layout/mainframe of the body as a whole.]

[quoted and paraphrased from http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...RY=1&SRETRY=0]


So to sort of bring this discussion back to one being interested in understanding if there are any gay indicators in their charts, and then implicitly relying on a set of aspects that reflect a historical look at sex/relating/mating, and particular styles of doing so, and what that all actually means, it might be helpful to say that there is a way to connect what one desires to what my spirit represents from the stars. To embrace things so as to operate from a sense of wholeness and self-awareness rather than say "ok I am Gay and here is why I am Gay, here is what my chart says and therefore I am Gay." It doesn't really seem to work that way!

[Modcleopatra]

Originally Posted by EJ53

Only Egos care about these things.


EJ

"[...]Religions/Philosophies, such as Hinduism and Buddhism, have traditionally held to the view that in order for an individual to fully benefit from their practice it was important to lessen or eliminate one's individual desires. Such practice was sometimes referred to as the "death of the ego" in order to emphasize its importance. However, the relatively recent popularity of East-meets-West spirituality in Western cultures tends to emphasize the acceptance and transformation of one's ego rather than its death." [Jungian theory to embrace one's shadow: perversity of drives to compell Ego to behave in a selfish way/undermining way to achieve destructive aims of the Ego, could then be seen as a safe and accepting harbor to desires which are neither alien nor abominable but must be embraced as part of the whole of one's being... my words here. Thus once embraced can be absorbed like the dying of a cell in the body to be reassigned into the chemical sphere and layout/mainframe of the body as a whole.]

[quoted and paraphrased from http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...RY=1&SRETRY=0]


So to sort of bring this discussion back to one being interested in understanding if there are any gay indicators in their charts, and then implicitly relying on a set of aspects that reflect a historical look at sex/relating/mating, and particular styles of doing so, and what that all actually means, it might be helpful to say that there is a way to connect what one desires to what my spirit represents from the stars. To embrace things so as to operate from a sense of wholeness and self-awareness rather than say "ok I am Gay and here is why I am Gay, here is what my chart says and therefore I am Gay." It doesn't really seem to work that way!

I think we are looking at a base desire, originating from the body and thus it must be handled not as an example of one's Ego, but the Ego can be representative of what one does with these desires and handles these desires, a place to balance, restore, and bring together these desires in a moderated and balanced way.

[Modcleopatra]

Originally Posted by EJ53

My view is that a Soul incarnating for the purpose of (say) learning about tolerance might choose to do so through first-hand experience of prejudice, gained (for example) by living as a gay person in a homophobic environment/society...

Hmm, this is an interesting concept. I wonder if we could also say that through learning this practice of tolerance and patience, we can manifest what we learn through these difficulties, as way to promote healing and justice. For example, if you have an indicator in your chart that somehow indicates that you had an experiencing of othering, which could be as a Gay person, or Black person, that in turn you can use what you've experienced as a source of guidance and healing to others. Like Martin Luther King Jr.

Originally Posted by EJ53

...Once in the physical body, that Soul must act through it's ("one lifetime only") Ego/conscious mind...unconsciously persuading it (by whatever means "works") that this individual was born/is naturally gay...

So the Soul with a larger objective in mind, comes into the body, and acting through the Ego/conscious mind, connects this individual to their Soul purpose? Which wouldn't necessarily to be Gay, which could be connected to a whole variety of factors, such as one's psychology or biology, probably a combination of the two since both act together within the physical body, but again, to experience a kind of Otherness the promotes healing and awareness and opens us to our connection our Higher Being/Higher Selves.

Originally Posted by EJ53

...This results in an Ego that (is and) "cares" about being gay...attached to a Soul that "cares" only about learning tolerance, and is using "being gay" simply as a mechanism to achieve that end...

Hmm I wonder if these two could work in tandem, because they could operate functionally so as to promote tolerance towards people who are Gay, if this person recognizes or becomes aware to the fact that their experience of this general Otherness is an opportunity to change and heal the others, rather than something to merely attach a material importance and to perhaps seek disputes of one kind or another because of it.

Originally Posted by EJ53

And...because the natal chart is a map designed to remind the Soul of it's purpose in this incarnation...the astrological indicators will relate to the need to learn tolerance, rather than the specific means by which that will be done...

I agree. I wonder, is there a way to look at how these learnings can also become ways of teaching, inspiring, healing others while simultaneously healing one's self? I wonder if we see a chart with indicators of stress perhaps simultaneously indicating the need to learn tolerance, that this could also be seen as instrument for internal balance that could become as the person matures into their soul-ego-body as a way to promote peace through simply existing in harmony and balance with one's self and one's Otherness and understand that as a way to free others from harmful patterns of Opression both to themselves and to Others, such as in this example, the individual who is Gay?

Originally Posted by EJ53

So, (imo) natal charts do not contain (reliable) astrological indicators of whether an individual is gay.

EJ

Hmmm, I agree with this. But I wonder, is it also helpful for people to say, ok, I'm experiencing Otherness in my lifetime, here is where it is indicated in my chart that I will experience this particular kind of stress, what can I do with this stress to learn more about myself so as to heal myself and to simultaneously become a vessel of healing and learning for others?

Mod.

[Claire19]

Can u post a chart from Astrodienst?? I cant read from your link.

In my experience Uranus is involved with Mars and/or Venus. The air signs seem to predominate in some way. I cant comment further without looking at your particular chart.

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by RockFish

Can I guess?

Mars conjunct Venus, Mars in Libra.

I have Mars conjunct Venus in Libra and in the 8th. I have attracted both sexes but am straight although not averse to bisexuality at all. I have thought about it but ultimately want the man thing.....

[Claire19]

Race and gender cannot be discerned from a natal chart.

[PD187540]

Here's a great example of a homosexual male's chart. See if you can pinpoint the factors that make such an individual homosexual (with masculine behavior, not effeminate).

Now with regard to femininity in males (i.e. diversion from the "normal, preponderant" masculine behavior), I have a theory that there is a predominance of the earth signs Virgo and Taurus (mostly Taurus) accentuated in a highly effeminate, male chart. Again, JUST a theory which needs more research and confirmation. And why do I say Taurus? Taurus is a feminine sign, and it naturally rules the throat/neck region (where the vocal cords are housed). I've known a male who had a sun and moon taurus conjunction who was highly effeminate. Again, ONLY a theory here, so don't go crazy! Effeminacy also does NOT mean that said male is homosexual, mind you..since there are straight men in existence who happen to talk effeminately. This is just strictly in reference to effeminacy in males only.

Good god, I really have to write a book about this, seriously. By doing so, now maybe I can turn the entire world on its head and lend plausibility to the "born gay theory," since any sexual orientation is not a choice. Choosing your particular partner is the only choice involved here, NOT which sex you're attracted to. NY Times Bestseller right here

[PD187540]

Originally Posted by Claire19

Race and gender cannot be discerned from a natal chart.

You're absolutely right, but sexual orientation can be predicted to an extent. In fact, even abnormal masculine/feminine behavior can be predicted as well (see above post).

For those people who said above, "Oh, there must be straight indicators as well, right?" Not exactly...you have to look for the gay indicators first, and if there are none, you may make a calculated conclusion that said individual is straight (via process of elimination). That's how THAT works.

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by Yujeen

Wow, this is so scary. I DO have my Venus in the house of Saturn (the 10th house), and I DO have Saturn in the 6th house. So I guess that explains why I'm so effeminate.

Saturn in the 6th or Venus in the 10th do not relate to gender issues at all.
Both of these houses relate to work and everyday needs and rituals and our goals in life and how we deal with parental and authority figures.

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by EJ53

Why do you believe the "entire world" believes otherwise, PD?

For example, no-one on this thread has suggested that individuals are not born gay...and I think the majority of the population here in the UK consider it to be a natural sexual orientaion.

____________________

If an individual does not wish their sexual orientation to be known, is it ethical for an astrologer to attempt to ascertain it through the natal chart?

EJ

There is no guaranteed way to look at a chart and define a person's sexual orientation. There are many combinations and scenarios and it is easier to find the markers once the orientation is known. I have all the markers for homosexuality some would say or at least bi sexuality and I am straight.
Astrology is a complex and subtle art.

[Inconjunct]

Your conflation of male homosexuality and effeminacy is offensive and inaccurate. You also confuse the notion of feminine signs with womanishness. People with Taurus strongly featured are not more "womanly" because it is a feminine sign. If you think of the masculine/feminine thing as more related to yang/yin or to positive/negative, or to light/dark, you are closer to the real meaning.

[PD187540]

Originally Posted by templeton

How can you know what the best meal is until you've tried everything on the menu?



I would like to see what Wilson has to say about this.

He's a triple with zero masculine planets in his chart. He's the head honcho around here, the supreme commander, so I've always considered him a real man. I'm not sure how thrilled he'll be with your theory.

Well, as I said, it's Taurus that matters more. And have you been face-to-face with Wilson before? This IS online, after all, you know. Hence, no physical interaction

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by Yujeen

Btw, I have Venus square Mars in my chart which is considered a gay aspect. But it's a bit too wide, though .......

Venus Mars square is not necessarily a gay aspect and it would need to be within 5 degrees I would say. It more indicates conflicts with sex and love and poor timing or not getting the two together or having very different needs for love and sex.

[Modcleopatra]

Originally Posted by EJ53

Please clarify/expand upon what you mean by "othering" and "otherness", ModC.

EJ

Sure EJ.

I'll quote myself here: For example, if you have an indicator in your chart that somehow indicates that you had an experiencing of othering, which could be as a Gay person, or Black person, that in turn you can use what you've experienced as a source of guidance and healing to others.

So, following my statement here, if "othering" means, in this Gay, it is only the "other" in so far the Straight is the assumed norm.

This concept simply reflects what happens in Society. Gay is first a label of a way of desiring that is deduced or produced via a pyramid of labels of identity. To be Gay, is to first have a Sex, and then to be relating to others of that same Sex in a certain desiring way. Gay can also translate in Gender Identity and Expression; as Templeton suggested not all Gay Men are effeminate, but all Gay Men are Gay. How their Gayness is expressed can be different for each Man, just as Straightness is expressed differently in each Straight Man. In this way, the supposed Dualism breaks down and is expressed in its multiplicative forms, which ultimately transcend the nature of desire to be labeled and becomes singular and self-expressive, as well as emotive.

However, returning back to the classical distinction of Gay from Straight, "otherness" simply seeks to the fact that it is more mainstream and naturalized to be Straight. This is in part because Straightness is more abundant and simply, in terms of basic biology, something which renders itself as more necessary, in the immediate sense, to our survival. Though one could argue that Gayness is beneficial to our survival as well, because as a species, especially as we evolve, realize our potential lies less in our capacity to physically self-manifest, and more in our capacity to simply be self-expressive, sensitive to our needs and to the needs of others outside of the framework of reproduction/procreation and more invested in connection for connection's sake.

"Otherness" however, also carries with it a sense of baggage or a kind of stigma, which is where I brought in the idea that experiencing "Otherness" is a means to bring healing, nurturing, support, guidance, and opening others to love through grasping one's socially fundamental identity divisor.

I don't mean to suggest that only certain people experience "Otherness." Everyone is different, first of all, we are all "Others" to one another. It is just that some categories of identity distinction experience a stigma based on this category of distinction.

ModC

[RockFish]

Originally Posted by Claire19

I have Mars conjunct Venus in Libra and in the 8th. I have attracted both sexes but am straight although not averse to bisexuality at all. I have thought about it but ultimately want the man thing.....

Right, but I was talking about metrossexuals, men who polish their nails wax and pluck their eyebrows.