Indication of bipolar dissorder, and current depression

[LittleMiss]

Hi everybody.

I'm posting this here in the Greenhorns Lounge, because I don't feel capable of giving my own interpertation of this particular problem yet.

I would really like to help a friend of mine, and this is her chart (attached as tumbnail, hopefully if I got it right!)
She has been diagnosed with the Bipolar 2 dissorder, and we are wondering what kind of planets and aspects that indicates this in her natal chart.

Curently she is going through a depression (one of the phases of the dissorder), and I was also wondering what you see in her chart that can indicate this. (I postet the chart with current transits).

I can see she has Saturn in the middle of her 5th house, but I'm not sure if that is it?
I would really like to help my friend, and to tell her that she is going through this for a reason, and that it (the depression) won't last for ever...

I would be really happy if someone would take a look at her chart and maybe give me some inputs. I'have been reading around for indications of bipolar dissorder in natal charts, but didn't seem to find any answers I felt matched her chart...

[LittleMiss]

Yes, I think the Scorpio-moon and the stellium with moon, mars and saturn in scorpio is causing her a bit of difficulties... I'm just not sure, exactly what yet. Or how it plays itself out.

[Frisiangal]

Hi LittleMiss,
A major problem with high latitude areas is that the astrological houses take on rather 'abnormal' forms, so many prefer to use the Equal House system for analysis. That said, your friend's chart offers a number of suggestions as it stands.

You will generally find that the word 'depression' involves Saturn, which can be classed as of mental or emotional of origin....or both! Everyone gets depressed at some time or other without it becoming a way of life, so to speak. I also read somewhere that Norway has more problems than average with depressed states. Having visited the country once for a holiday and seen days of rain hovering over and around those dark troll-like mountains and fjords, I can very well understand it!

Emotions are always involved in some way in depressive states and this suggests adverse aspects from the Moon, whilst 'mental' depressed states would suggest adversity from the airy, mental planets and/or signs.

You can see in your friend's chart that there is a square aspect between Mercury(mental) and Saturn, and Saturn is also conjunct Moon (emotional). This conjunction is in the 6th house, associated with predispositions towards physical disorders. Mercury is in the 3rd house (mental) yet, if you were to use Equal House it would just scrape into the end of the 1st house, associated with physical disposition and one's spiritual mind (fire). From a positive point of view your friend can be a very happy-go-lucky individual UNTIL the pessimistic(Saturn) side in Scorpio takes over. Saturn is also ruler of the 8th house, which would suggest that physical setbacks can create a deeply emotionally disturbed state because she will not see things for what they truly are (real circumstances) but through an emotional haze.

Her Cancer Sun, always prone to worry, opposes Jupiter in Capricorn. She may tend to see situations as the glass half empty rather than half full. Sun-Jupiter can be suggestive of a lack of self confidence, which could then bring on depression because one is not happy about one's self.

Her Mercury is in an out-of-sign square to Pluto, an aspect that is associated with obsessional and manipulative mental patterns, especially if things don't go as she mentally thinks they should....HER way.

Although not easy, if she could train herself to allow her sunny and optimistic side to have more control over her than her heavy and emotional side, she could produce wonders. To look at each situation and see it from both sides; that every disadvantage produces its advantages in other ways if given the chance.....and vice versa. The downhill slide may not be then so easily forthcoming.

My 2 cents of initial thought.

Frisiangal

[lillyjgc]

Hi-I have a number of charts of bi-polar sufferers..the sun cj venus opposition to jupiter/nept cj could be a factor-jupiter/nept is often involved.
The moon rules ther third house here, of mental states and the moon is conjunct Saturn in the sixth house of illness-illnesses of a depressive type.
Personally I'd prefer to see this chart using Regiomontanus house cusps, or a systen that didnt give distorted houses as this one does.
She also has her Chiron opp Uranus-I've seen this aspect in bi-polar patients also.
I wish your friend all the best..Homeopathic Hypericum sometimes helps the symptoms as does Bach flower Remedies. Alternative medicine may help.Good counselling is essential.
Stay strong.
Lillyj.

[Flapjacks]

I can't speak much for the chart, but I have a friend diagnosed with bi-polar (don't know what type) disorder and she decided to manage her disposition without medication, against doctors recommendations. With counseling meditation, supportive friends, and focusing her emotions into artwork, she brought down her depressive/manic swings to a manageable level. So it can be done. Such a difficult condition doesn't have to get in the way of a good life.

[kazman32]

I was diagnosed with bi-polar in 2000, I have suffered with this for as long as I can remember, I had horrific nightmares as a child, I also heard voices etc...I have been told it was because I was a 'sensitive' to spirits etc...but the medical community terms it bi-polar...what ever you call it I have periods of severe depression, very vivid dreams,periods of restlessness and so on. btw I have found a medication that helps..and luckly my p-doc is cool enough to perscribe it 'off label' for depression, even though it is usually perscribed for opiate dependance. (Suboxone) It has been the only thing that helps. I wish your friend friend the best people do not realize how hard of a thing this is to live with my father (RIP) chose not to live with it and commmitued suicide in 1975, it;s a hard road and I am sure your friendship and williningness to help means the world to your friend.

[aquarius7000]

Hi LittleMiss,

Your friend being born up North, perhaps another house-system might be more suitable for the chart. Ignoring the houses for now and concentrating more on the signs, etc, we can see that she has a lot of water in her chart. Almost all her personal planets and Asc are in water signs, except for Mer in Leo (building a bit of a contrast - more outgoing and optmistic) and Jupiter in Cap (where it is weak, in fall). Water is receptive, introverted and absorbing; the opposite of fire or air, both of which are more extroverted and communicative. The sign of Cancer, especially, may also make one fairly moody. What makes things even more challenging for her is her Saturn -stabilising, but also inhibiting her emotions (Moon), and not letting her 'act out' all those energies (Mars) within herself. Her Moon (not well placed in Sco) is dominated by a strong Mars, which surely often stirs her inner-self/emotions; and Mars, by itself, always wants you to act outwards. However, Saturn restricts that Mars-Moon conjunction here making her hold it all back, and Scorpio further adds to this, perhaps making her feel that she might choke or explode. This builds a contrast. Hence, such stuck-up energy might come out in sudden bursts. Further, that Jup (shows optimism, growth, moving ahead) in a wide opposition (energies working against eachother) to the Sun in Cancer (introverted, fearful, needs to feel secure in a known environment) might be like a tug-of-war within herself (another contrast), bringing her somewhat out of her balance. She needs some form of self-expression (perhaps some artisitic pursuits) that is a good vent for all that pent-up emotional energy and feelings.

I am sure she appreciates your concern and willingness to help.

AQ7

[R4VEN]

Originally Posted by lillyjgc

She also has her Chiron opp Uranus-I've seen this aspect in bi-polar patients also.

Given that Chiron-Uranus opposition is found in a large proportion of the population born between 1951 - 1989, I'd only consider it a contributing factor - high levels of sensitivity and electrical activity in the brain - were the opposition a close one - say, with an orb of less than 1 degree. In people with this placement - especially the very close opposition - drugs of all kinds can `fry' the brain, resulting in drug-induced psychosis. I have found that many with a bipolar diagnosis (but obviously not all) actually have a degree of the drug-induced disorder, even when their drug use has been mild.

[LittleMiss]

Hi everybody and thank you so much for your replies, and sharing personal experiences!! I'm very greatful, and I will look into the things you have mentioned.
Read about the Pluto Mercury square and the Sun Jupiter opposition last night!

But I just have to ask Frisiangel - I can't see that she has a square between Mercury and Saturn? Or am I mistaken?

Originally Posted by Frisiangal

Hi LittleMiss,
A major problem with high latitude areas is that the astrological houses take on rather 'abnormal' forms, so many prefer to use the Equal House system for analysis. That said, your friend's chart offers a number of suggestions as it stands.

You will generally find that the word 'depression' involves Saturn, which can be classed as of mental or emotional of origin....or both! Everyone gets depressed at some time or other without it becoming a way of life, so to speak. I also read somewhere that Norway has more problems than average with depressed states. Having visited the country once for a holiday and seen days of rain hovering over and around those dark troll-like mountains and fjords, I can very well understand it!

Emotions are always involved in some way in depressive states and this suggests adverse aspects from the Moon, whilst 'mental' depressed states would suggest adversity from the airy, mental planets and/or signs.

You can see in your friend's chart that there is a square aspect between Mercury(mental) and Saturn, and Saturn is also conjunct Moon (emotional). This conjunction is in the 6th house, associated with predispositions towards physical disorders. Mercury is in the 3rd house (mental) yet, if you were to use Equal House it would just scrape into the end of the 1st house, associated with physical disposition and one's spiritual mind (fire). From a positive point of view your friend can be a very happy-go-lucky individual UNTIL the pessimistic(Saturn) side in Scorpio takes over. Saturn is also ruler of the 8th house, which would suggest that physical setbacks can create a deeply emotionally disturbed state because she will not see things for what they truly are (real circumstances) but through an emotional haze.

Her Cancer Sun, always prone to worry, opposes Jupiter in Capricorn. She may tend to see situations as the glass half empty rather than half full. Sun-Jupiter can be suggestive of a lack of self confidence, which could then bring on depression because one is not happy about one's self.

Her Mercury is in an out-of-sign square to Pluto, an aspect that is associated with obsessional and manipulative mental patterns, especially if things don't go as she mentally thinks they should....HER way.

Although not easy, if she could train herself to allow her sunny and optimistic side to have more control over her than her heavy and emotional side, she could produce wonders. To look at each situation and see it from both sides; that every disadvantage produces its advantages in other ways if given the chance.....and vice versa. The downhill slide may not be then so easily forthcoming.

My 2 cents of initial thought.

Frisiangal

[LittleMiss]

Hi!

She was diagnosed 8 th of May, 2008, but she think it accoured around the age of fourteen.

She is absolutely both very creative and very sensitive yes, and she was interested in some spiritual stuff for a periode when she was younger, as I can recall.

What is a Ca/Fix/Mut Midpoint Sort?

Originally Posted by JerryRR

Hi,

BP 2 D is not easy to diagnose,I see your friend has Ju/Nep on the Dsc, I would consider a second opinion.
Do you feel your friend is a very sensitive person,and is she very creative?
Moon/Sat may predispose your friend to melancholy,via heredity.(see COSI by Ebertin.)
May I also ask if your friend belongs to some sort of spiritual group?

I would also suggest that you do a Ca/Fix/Mut Midpoint Sort this can be printed out then Laminated,you can then compare the Transits and Progs with the natal midpoints.(keep a diary)
For example Tr Pluto=Asc/Nep.A feeling of depression caused by ones enviroment.(COSI)
When was your friend diagnosed please?

Jerry.

[kazman32]

I will agree with R4AVEN on the sensitivity and electrical issues, I know I go through periods of high and low energy, drugs also effect this I'm wired backwards as far as opiate drugs jack me up and give me energy, were as alot of people get sleepy. I had alot of weird out of body experiences as a teenager and a few other strange sensations/feelings as far as the spirit world goes.

[LittleMiss]

Originally Posted by Flapjacks

I can't speak much for the chart, but I have a friend diagnosed with bi-polar (don't know what type) disorder and she decided to manage her disposition without medication, against doctors recommendations. With counseling meditation, supportive friends, and focusing her emotions into artwork, she brought down her depressive/manic swings to a manageable level. So it can be done. Such a difficult condition doesn't have to get in the way of a good life.

This is exactly the same that my friend has done actually! She decided to manage without the medication, because of alot of side-affects, and are doing tremendous work with herself.
She also is an artist, and painting (useing her creativity) is one of the things that are extremly important to her, in terms of dealing with the dissorder.
I'm so glad to hear someone else getting along with this dissorder without the mediaction. Me to absolutely belive it can be done!

[rahu]

hi Miss

it seems that her recent severe depression began i late spring continuing til september of this year.

these influences are past and the near future will bring here loving and creative side to the fore. i would expect a relationship to develope soon.by this weekend ,her spirits should be changed to the happy side.

rahu

[Frisiangal]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by LittleMiss

But I just have to ask Frisiangel - I can't see that she has a square between Mercury and Saturn? Or am I mistaken?

Mercury is on 2+Leo and is applying to Saturn on 9+Scorpio. The aspect would be within the 8* orb that a number of astrologers work with for major aspects. I personally would treat it as such because in this case, with Mercury's progression towards Saturn's degree, the aspect is becoming stronger rather than weaker, reaching exactitude during childhood. Had it been the other way around, Saturn on 2* and Mercury on 9*, Mercury would be separating from Saturn and moving further out of orb. It might not even be classed as an aspect.
But that's just me.

Frisiangal

[LittleMiss]

Thank you, I've never heard about this MP-method before!

I can see that she has Neptun on the dsc oppoising her asc, is this what you mean by "strong Neptun theme?".

Originally Posted by JerryRR

Hi LittleMiss,

Thank you for your reply and info'.

A midpoint is the degree that is located halfway between any other two points.
Example your friends Sun/Moon MP: Sun in Cancer,Moon in Scorpio, the MP
is 15 Virgo 08.
The MP Sort,lists in order of degree,all the Planetary Pairs that are in Cardinal,Fixed and Mutable Signs.(Quad's).
A good Astrology Prog' will quickly do this for you.
Using the Sort is a quick and easy way to observe Planetary trends.
Over time this may provide you with valuable data and may highlight Planetary Combinations that may relate to BP.(Periods of highs and Lows).

I also noticed that your friend has a strong Neptune Theme in her chart.
Has she come across the painting konkyliekinnen by the Artist Tone Aanderaa?
Her MP trees indicate a love of Art,she may also make a good Art Critic.

Jerry.

[LittleMiss]

Originally Posted by rahu

hi Miss

it seems that her recent severe depression began i late spring continuing til september of this year.

these influences are past and the near future will bring here loving and creative side to the fore. i would expect a relationship to develope soon.by this weekend ,her spirits should be changed to the happy side.

rahu

Hi. Actually I think she began a hypomanic state in late spring, and that the depression began now this September...

She has become more intouch with her creative side again, a short while ago, wich have been very good for her now.

[LittleMiss]

Originally Posted by JerryRR

Hi LittleMiss,

Yes this is what I meant regarding Neptune,plus Ne= Mo/Ma and some other MP combinations.

Ebertin describes Mo/Sa: Melancholy,Depression,anxiety states,mania,insomnia and fatigues.He recommends the Hypericum (St.John's Wort) for Mo/Sa.

I suggest looking at her Solar Return for 1998,Mo/Ma =Asc/Dsc/Ju/Ne.
On the day of her diagnosis Su=Ju/Ne.

Jerry.

Thank you!
I've never heard of that method before. (MPs). I read about it in one of my books just now. (Author is something Parker..?) Big guidebook for astrology interpertations. Seems that I need to spend some time figuring that out before I can get something from it. Until now I've had enough just focusing on planets, signs and transits.

But can anyone see what in her chart may cause the current depression?

[LittleMiss]

[QUOTE=Frisiangal;170413]

Mercury is on 2+Leo and is applying to Saturn on 9+Scorpio. The aspect would be within the 8* orb that a number of astrologers work with for major aspects. I personally would treat it as such because in this case, with Mercury's progression towards Saturn's degree, the aspect is becoming stronger rather than weaker, reaching exactitude during childhood. Had it been the other way around, Saturn on 2* and Mercury on 9*, Mercury would be separating from Saturn and moving further out of orb. It might not even be classed as an aspect.
But that's just me.

Frisiangal

So by applying you mean that Mercury is moving towards Saturn, so the orb is wide, but not too wide to be interpreted? And that is why astro.com has left it out?

Thank you for your input!