Gender identity and the sun/moon.

[Flapjacks]

I sometimes wish I were genderless. I don’t like to chase or be chased by men or deal with the moods and pressures of women which, most commonly, are apparent when a group of them get together. I don’t want to be identified as having worth based on whether I am a man or a woman… placed by others or myself. It seems people like to think that this sort of bias is not in them, but even as I get offended when someone says, “you perform well for a woman!” I secretly become proud in other situations when I have knowledge or interests in something that most women do not pay attention to (as far as a stereotype goes).
Two of my best female friends wish they were men, or believe that they should have been men. Another goes to parties dressing as a man just to take others by surprise and bothers others because she “looks like a boy” or at least feels as if she does. Another, while reveling in fashion, makeup, clothes and shoes, needs to take hormone medication because of overproduction of testosterone.
I am definitely not the only woman to struggle with their identity but I wonder how many actually don’t want to have an identity other than “human.” I don’t have any affinity with lesbianism or homosexuality, which seems like the proper response. It is a paradox because to be human is to have a gender and a place within a group of other humans because none can stand alone.

I wonder if my inability to fully identify with either gender is why I have such trouble finding a companion. I don’t feel I need “another half” because I don’t feel like a half, and yet I don’t feel like a whole either and I am lonely. I just can’t polarize along those lines but society and heredity say that I should. Has anyone felt they want to be neither male or female?

Astrologically, I can see an echo of these feelings. I have my sun opposed my moon. My moon, representing the feminine principal, is in Capricorn, the sign of the father. My Sun, the masculine principal, is in Cancer, the sign of the mother. They both square to Pluto in a T-square, a planet representing death and rebirth, regeneration and generations. My sun/moon midpoint is in Libra, the sign of balance… a masculine sign currently ruled by a feminine planet. It is also conjunct my South Node but I have yet to understand what that might mean.

I think that the Sun and Moon are interesting to study in the subject of genders because they are ambiguous in their own right; in some cultures the Sun is the feminine life-giver and the moon is masculine. The sun and moon also represent the child and the adult, the light and the dark. While Venus and Mars are more direct in dealing with the physical sex, the wider implications through society are less pronounced in my opinion.

I would love to have a discussion on views/opinions on gender identity, and the positions of your sun and moon, or your ideas on what the sun and moon represent in the natal chart.

[Nexus7]

Well, there have been discussions that haved touched on this area before. I rthink Astrology has plenty of biasses of its own, one of the reasons why I do not seek out the company of astrologies in RL, to be honest.

There is social reality with its prescribed genders roles, then there is the 'purer' form of the individual planets.

[RockFish]

Yes, I can relate, I've felt a lot of difficulty to "fit" into the image and behaviour expected from a woman... At some points I fought it with androginity, at others I tried to be just one in the many, mingle with the female crowd and look extremely delicate and feminine... Sometimes I felt I was pretending to be feminine, sometimes I felt I was pretending to be masculine to hide the female inside, etc etc.......... It's a neverending unveiling of human possibilities... This discovery never ends, at least not for me. I think about genders and stereotypes and archetypes nearly every day.

I have Sun and Mars in conjunction, first house, and I identify with men a lot. Mars is actually the strongest planet in my chart, and that can be rather tricky for a lady.

I feel pleasure and comfort with men (Sun + Mars), as lovers and friends, and around women I sometimes feel wary, defensive (I have Saturn squaring venus), altho it's toning down with age. I feel a deep connection with my father, and my relationship with him has been better than the one with my mother, altho age is also changing this for the better.

I've always been fascinated by Patti Smith (who, like me, has Sun and Mars conjunct in capricorn and Mercury on the ascendant). I loved how paradoxical she was, oftenly looking so masculine and at the same time bonding with men artistically and personally, and stablishing a life-long relationship with a man. I spend a long time listening and watching people who defied gender stereotypes, like Patti, Bowie, Marc Bolan, and it was very useful for me to develop my own sense of feeling right with who I was and who I wanted to be. They were very important for me in my teenage years, which is precisely when we feel the strongest pressure to look and behave according to certain group patterns.

As for finding a partner, there's a social pressure, I feel, to have people fitting into a certain image in order to find partners. Like, you have to dress like this or that in order to attract males, etc. This is all nonsense, and you'll find that there are certain men who don't follow the flock and the rules, and those are the ones you'll want to be with.

[Flapjacks]

That's an interesting way to deal with gender... I've always dealt with it by putting gender patterns into rigid guidelines. Basically it was from childhood, girls wear dresses and boys wear trousers kinda thing. But then I would see people like David Bowie, and really find nothing particularly different about the way he expressed himself. I knew he was male and that is all that mattered.

Hm... I don't think I was exposed to a lot of women breaking their gender roles when I was young, and I think that was a great loss. I never heard of Patti Smith, the closest I know of was the lead singer of Concrete Blonde Johnette Napolitano, who had a very masculine voice. I do remember being very fascinated by that when I was about nine, because before that I always thought it was a man singing.

So much of that seems to be conditioned when you're a kid, because instead of being confused or afraid of something different, you are curious about it. Trying to go back to that is hard when you're an adult in some ways, when you're suddenly expected to model what you've already learned to some extent.

[HeyPlayGirl]

i do not wish i was genderless because i enjoy being femnine but i do wish i was asexual. if a pill came on the market that could produce this, i would take it. so IN A WAY i understand where you're coming from.

perhaps my sun square moon is the culprit? i don't know.

btw, i LOVE concrete blonde

[Flapjacks]

Originally Posted by HeyPlayGirl

i do not wish i was genderless because i enjoy being femnine but i do wish i was asexual. if a pill came on the market that could produce this, i would take it. so IN A WAY i understand where you're coming from.

perhaps my sun square moon is the culprit? i don't know.

lol! sun opp moon: GENDERLESS. sun square moon: ASEXUAL.

now we know.

[RockFish]

I have Sun trine Moon, I must be overgenderistic then...

My chart has a lot of patterns that can "grant" me with some confusion about gender: Sun Conjunct Mars (for a woman, it's weird), Venus square Saturn and Moon conjunct Saturn (repressed femininity) and, what I consider to be one of the trickiest, Venus conjunct Neptune, which throws some fog over the female quality, creates some confusion about what to be a woman really means.

[Claire19]

SUre the Sun and the moon represent the yin and yang polarity. But we need to look at Venus and Mars for the gender orientation as well.
Libra often presents the need to balance the yin and yang and can represent bisexuality. Aquarius and Uranus can represent "unconventional" sexual leanings such as homosexuality. Gemini can be neutral.
I hear what you say re the Moon in Capricorn and the Sun in Cancer but really it all depends on the aspects that operate with them. This situation can represent a mother figure who had a career, was the boss and perhaps more out in the world, whilst the father may be seen as more nurturing and perhaps was at home a lot or quite domesticated. It can be the househusband scenario which is more common these days.

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by RockFish

I have Sun trine Moon, I must be overgenderistic then...

My chart has a lot of patterns that can "grant" me with some confusion about gender: Sun Conjunct Mars (for a woman, it's weird), Venus square Saturn and Moon conjunct Saturn (repressed femininity) and, what I consider to be one of the trickiest, Venus conjunct Neptune, which throws some fog over the female quality, creates some confusion about what to be a woman really means.

Interesting comment re Venus conjunct Neptune and I have it in Libra in the 8th. I have overidealised love and been disappointed. Had platonic friends and some homosexuals as well. HOwever it is supposed to lend an aura of glamour and can lead to a love of the spiritual and seeking after an ideal love and loving to help others that are perceived as being less fortunate. I have Mars conjunct Neptune exact in Libra as well and have preferred to be celibate in the later years because of my disappointments in love. These influences lead to secret loves also and supposedly a strong sex appeal. Although I am open to all sorts of liaisons I am heterosexual although wish sometimes I was bisexual. I guess being in the 8th it makes me more sexual and not open to being genderless, shall we say.

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by HeyPlayGirl

i do not wish i was genderless because i enjoy being femnine but i do wish i was asexual. if a pill came on the market that could produce this, i would take it. so IN A WAY i understand where you're coming from.

perhaps my sun square moon is the culprit? i don't know.

btw, i LOVE concrete blonde

No, the Sun square Moon by itself would not be the culprit. It does lead to difficulties in adjusting to relationships because of the basic yin and yang conflicts. However the signs they are in and the houses and other aspects give a fuller picture. Your sexual issues come from Mars and Pluto perhaps. You perhaps perceived your parents as being at odds and not inclined to marriage or committed type relationships because of that.

[Flapjacks]

Of course you do have to take a whole chart into account. The Sun and Moon however are the two most personal planets, so they get more credit, I think, than Venus and Mars as far as gender ROLES, specifically. Mars and Venus would come into it as far as what they rule, though.

For example, one of the women I mentioned in the first post who believes that she should have been born a man has both her Sun and Moon in Aries. Her Venus is in Pisces (ruled by Neptune), and her Mars in Taurus (ruled by Venus)... both feminine signs. Yet her drive is strongly masculine (her asc is also in Leo). Both of her parents were in the army, too.

Rockfish, I've never thought of Neptune conjunct Venus as causing confusion over your femininity... that is an interesting idea. I have Venus trine Neptune, and always attributed it to my love of the arts (Venus being in Virgo and Neptune in Capricorn with no Libra or Taurus in me hurhur).

Something I'm noticing is a lot of people responding to this thread have Venus square Saturn. I have this, too. Hm...

[piscesascendant]

What about Sun conj Moon? Androgynous? I feel very feminine, I have very delicate features and soft, smooth skin. I enjoy talking about my emotions and engaging in idle speculation. I read all of the Laura Ingalls Wilder books as a child and moved on to Louisa May Alcott and Edith Wharton as I got older. I sometimes wonder what it would be like to have lady parts but I know I am completely straight. The reason I know this is because I have experimented but found it to be extremely unnatural. I can be antagonistic or hostile towards women that I perceive as "strong" or "assertive", traditionally male qualities that I feel I might be lacking in. I also resent extremely beautiful women, which is a bit strange since I'm not in direct competition with them. I don't like the breaks they get in life, how they can manipulate men into doing things for them. That resentment is not exclusively towards them, it also extends to men who are too easily reeled in by beauty and who enable that kind of behavior.

Interesting that you mention this, about the Sun/Moon conjunction and androgeny. I've questioned this but have found that it tends to be more about how my natal planets are distributed among positive and negative signs (in terms of polarities). What I've found interesting was that the first astrologer I went to put it to me this way: "You're a real projective male, but you understand what women are all about". I myself would amend that a bit, and say that I'm very in tune to my feminine side, but yes, I do project a much more masculine side in terms of energy, regardless of appearance (although I look very rugged, just not really muscular).

As far as antagonism toward attractive people, I used to be (and for the reasons given), but after a while I just started looking at it in terms of how to treat people. If a person felt they were "all that", I wouldn't treat them badly so much as simply not give it any play. I've had women try to manipulate me before, using their looks to win me over. I simply deny them their pleasure. They have walked away occasionally resentful, while others simply realize they won't be able to play games with me.

[CapAquaPis]

Claire said: Aquarius and Uranus can represent "unconventional" sexual leanings such as homosexuality. - The co-ruler planet of Capricorn - cap.

I read on another thread on Capricorn (ruled by Saturn) depicts gender identity confusion and going against the norm in regards to their gender.

What about persons born under the signs Capricorn and Aquarius, ruled by the same planets Saturn and Uranus...doesn't always determine their biological or natural vs. mental or psychological sense of gender really.

In the case of having a sun and moon in the same sign (the new moon factor, in my case on my birthdate Feb. 15th) the symbol of genderless or non-conventional/traditional sense of sexual identity or gender roles.

The signs Capricorn, as well Aquarius and Pisces, are linked to bisexuality, homosexuality and gender-bender transgenderism in a minute percentage of those born in signs, or rising, or planets in these signs at time of birth.

The planet Mercury does the same thing when the planet rules the signs Gemini and Virgo, and the sun/moon conjunct in these two signs will have a similar if not "big" impact on the person's future sexual orientation.

And the planets Mars and Pluto, associated with the signs Aries and Scorpio they jointly rule, are powerful in sexual nature of persons influenced by them. Venus is a feminine object (ruler of Taurus and Libra), so is Lilith the near earth asteroid, and should I say how will planets Jupiter and Neptune, masculine worlds can fall in the feminine sign Pisces they jointly rule.

[Claire19]

If you would post your chart...Often in past lives we are used to being the one sex and it is hard to reincarnate as the other... I dont wish I was a man although I would like some of the privileges they have made sure they keep for themselves.. so I am a feminist not a lesbian....I am predominantly yang and have never followed the conventional path of a woman, i.e. mother and wife. but that is a challenged Moon and Saturn in Leo..in the 5th..

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by CapAquaPis

Claire said: Aquarius and Uranus can represent "unconventional" sexual leanings such as homosexuality. - The co-ruler planet of Capricorn - cap.

I read on another thread on Capricorn (ruled by Saturn) depicts gender identity confusion and going against the norm in regards to their gender.

What about persons born under the signs Capricorn and Aquarius, ruled by the same planets Saturn and Uranus...doesn't always determine their biological or natural vs. mental or psychological sense of gender really.

In the case of having a sun and moon in the same sign (the new moon factor, in my case on my birthdate Feb. 15th) the symbol of genderless or non-conventional/traditional sense of sexual identity or gender roles.
The signs Capricorn, as well Aquarius and Pisces, are linked to bisexuality, homosexuality and gender-bender transgenderism in a minute percentage of those born in signs, or rising, or planets in these signs at time of birth.

The planet Mercury does the same thing when the planet rules the signs Gemini and Virgo, and the sun/moon conjunct in these two signs will have a similar if not "big" impact on the person's future sexual orientation.

And the planets Mars and Pluto, associated with the signs Aries and Scorpio they jointly rule, are powerful in sexual nature of persons influenced by them. Venus is a feminine object (ruler of Taurus and Libra), so is Lilith the near earth asteroid, and should I say how will planets Jupiter and Neptune, masculine worlds can fall in the feminine sign Pisces they jointly rule.

I think that Mercury is essentially genderless or neutral and needs contact with other planets such as Venus and Mars to define the sexuality.....The sun and moon square Pluto can raise sexual issues for sure...but everyone is different. Wishing we were the other sex doesnt necessarily mean we have that sexual orientation... Capricorn does not rule sexuality in itself nor Saturn. Saturn in the 8th can lead to frigidity or sexual blocks but has to be attached to the relevant planets.

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by piscesascendant

Interesting that you mention this, about the Sun/Moon conjunction and androgeny. I've questioned this but have found that it tends to be more about how my natal planets are distributed among positive and negative signs (in terms of polarities). What I've found interesting was that the first astrologer I went to put it to me this way: "You're a real projective male, but you understand what women are all about". I myself would amend that a bit, and say that I'm very in tune to my feminine side, but yes, I do project a much more masculine side in terms of energy, regardless of appearance (although I look very rugged, just not really muscular).

As far as antagonism toward attractive people, I used to be (and for the reasons given), but after a while I just started looking at it in terms of how to treat people. If a person felt they were "all that", I wouldn't treat them badly so much as simply not give it any play. I've had women try to manipulate me before, using their looks to win me over. I simply deny them their pleasure. They have walked away occasionally resentful, while others simply realize they won't be able to play games with me.

We all like looking at attractive people and it works for both sexes if you are talking about manipulation...We may be jealous of their power and perceived advantages but I prefer to get what I want myself without playing a man to get it whenever possible but charm and ordinary average looks work just as well I am sure.. Beauty is as beauty does. What happens when they lose their appeal and their looks?? Major crisis. Grabbing desperately for the plastic surgery, the botox etc..because they have not developed their inner lives or resources......

As for Sun and Moon conjunctions no, that does not depict androgyny...Not even in Gemini or Aquarius....

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by Flapjacks

Of course you do have to take a whole chart into account. The Sun and Moon however are the two most personal planets, so they get more credit, I think, than Venus and Mars as far as gender ROLES, specifically. Mars and Venus would come into it as far as what they rule, though.

For example, one of the women I mentioned in the first post who believes that she should have been born a man has both her Sun and Moon in Aries. Her Venus is in Pisces (ruled by Neptune), and her Mars in Taurus (ruled by Venus)... both feminine signs. Yet her drive is strongly masculine (her asc is also in Leo). Both of her parents were in the army, too.

Rockfish, I've never thought of Neptune conjunct Venus as causing confusion over your femininity... that is an interesting idea. I have Venus trine Neptune, and always attributed it to my love of the arts (Venus being in Virgo and Neptune in Capricorn with no Libra or Taurus in me hurhur).

Something I'm noticing is a lot of people responding to this thread have Venus square Saturn. I have this, too. Hm...

Yes Sun and Moon in Aries and picking up from the parents, would lead to what you describe as to the core personality and her chart ruled by the Sun also.... However is she a lesbian??/ Her Taurus Venus and Mars in Pisces are sensual yin signs.

As for Venus conjunct Neptune for confusion. I have it and in the 8th Libra and as a woman I used to attract those who were addicted and confused but really it is a very feminised influence and men who have it may have masculinity problems or feel somehow inadequate or even be gay. In its highest form it is unconditional love which may come about as a result of unrequited love which has been risen above.

With the Earth signs involved are you more inclined towards crafts, fabrics, cloth, embroidery, leather work, jewellery using stones or things of the Earth, crystals, sand sculptures.

[piscesascendant]

Originally Posted by Claire19

As for Sun and Moon conjunctions no, that does not depict androgyny...Not even in Gemini or Aquarius....

True, although I probably responded to that part of the post because my Sun and Moon are in the 12th house--an androgynous house.

[CapAquaPis]

Originally Posted by piscesascendant

True, although I probably responded to that part of the post because my Sun and Moon are in the 12th house--an androgynous house.

No planet was in Gemini my 12th house, what about the 7th house which is Capricorn - the one sign associated with inner gender identification conflict, but depending on positions of planets in their natal star chart.

I still trying to find the root causes of maiseiophilia by the natal star chart and for a male to be specifically attracted to pregnant women, is more like an extreme form of heterosexuality and another one of those fetishes men tend to have on women's body parts (or as status of being a woman).

I would say I'm a man who doesn't treat women differently, someone likes to hang out with women and view them more equally. However, I don't have trans-sexual/gender, nor any bi-/homosexual tendencies. The Sun and Moon in Aquarius mellowed my male ego without erasing masculinity.