Final Dispositors in Mutual Reception

[R4VEN]

I had a look through the Search facility for information on final dispositors, since I still do not feel confident in the knowledge of what this means - i.e. its significance in a chart.

There was an excellent thread from around 3 years ago in which Tim Wilson gave an easy step-by-step method of finding one's own dispositors.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...al+dispositors

My question relates to the situation when the final dispositors are a couple of planets in mutual reception - eg. Jupiter in Pisces and Neptune in Sagittarius

As I understand this, if these 2 planets in mutual reception are then in relation to one another - eg, in this case, they'd probably form a square if they were in relationship with one another - then they carry a strong influence over the whole chart. Is this how it works?

If these two planets in mutual reception - and final dispositors - do not form an aspect with one another, is the `power' they have as final dispositors lessened?

Any ideas/feedback welcomed. I'm trying desperately to `get' this.

(or should I just forget it, and stick to what I know?????)

[starlink]

R4ven, you can only have ONE final dispositor and it has to be in it's own sign. This you probably already know. Not every chart has a final dispositor because not every chart has a planet placed in its own sign.

When you do have a final dispositor, then that planet is very important in how you conduct your life and it will be the major planet influencing your life.

To give an example (modernly speaking now): I have Asc. Scorpio, ruler Pluto is in Leo (ruled by Sun) , Sun is in Taurus (ruled by Venus), Venus is in Aries (ruled by Mars) and finally Mars is also in Aries, in his own sign, so there it stops. Mars is my final dispositor. The aspects to Mars, the house it rules, will play an important part in my life.

Traditionally speaking I would say that Mars would rule my Ascendant as Mars rules Scorpio and Aries in trad. astrology and we can stop there. Again, Mars is the final dispositor.

If you dont have a final dispositor, then give more importance to your Sun, Moon and Asc. ruler I would say.

Now in your case, you say that you have a mutual reception between Neptune and Jupiter. But Neptune is in Sagittarius, not in Pisces and Jupiter is in Pisces, not in Sagittarius.. I know that Jupiter is also seen as co-ruler of Pisces and Neptune co-ruler . of Sagittarius in modern astrology, but it does not work like that when we look at final dispositors. Traditionally Jupiter rules Pisces only by night and Sagittarius by day. Neptune did not exist in those days. Only Jupiter in Sagittarius and Neptune in Pisces would qualify therefore, looking at it from a modern point of view.

Your Neptune in Sagittarius and Jupiter in Pisces are modernly speaking in Mutual reception, but traditionally speaking cannot be in MR because Neptune did not exist.

You cannot have a final dispositor in Mutual reception with another planet. Because (in my example) Mars is in Aries. Mars cannot also be somewhere else. (like Mars in Aquarius and Uranus in Aries).

If you have two planets in the same sign and one is the final dispositor of that sign, I guess that that planet will be influenced by the dispositor.(see excerpt in my next post).

My Venus conjuncts my Mars and maybe will be sort of pulled into that final dispositor ship. I dont know about this and have never read about that either. Still, if another planet is ruled by a final dispositor, then I would guess that that planet will follow the leader (final disp.) and will be strongly connected.

[starlink]

I found this in the internet by Wilkinson (not Tim Wilson):

When a planet is in its home sign it is its own final dispositor, as well as the final dispositor of any sign in a sign it rules. Sometimes there is no final dispositor, in which case a chain of dispositors is set up with a group influencing each other through the qualities of what sign they’re in. And if you find two planets each disposing each other, such as Moon in Aquarius and Uranus in Cancer, it is called “mutual reception,” and is a very strong influence. It is as though the two planets feed each other, and grow stronger, for good or ill, in their ability to dominate those affairs in the chart.

I have highlighted one sentence in blue. I also came to the conclusion that what I wrote to you in my 1st post, deals with the final dispositor of your chart. (starting at the Ascendant).

As you can see from this excerpt, you can also have a final dispositor of other planets alone. This would be in the case of having a few planets in own sign of course. Say Mercury is in Gemini, then Mercury is the final dispositor (by day!) of Venus in Virgo, or any other planet in Virgo. When Mercury is in Virgo, then he is final dispositor only by night. (traditional astr. again.)

Should I start with the Ascendant to find the final chart dispositor, and lets say, stop at Mercury in Gemini then Mercury in Gemini (in a day chart) would be the final dispositor of the chart, but there could just as well be other planets in own sign and then they will be final dispositors over the rest of some planets. At least that is how I understand it. If I am wrong I hope someone will come and correct me

[gemini59]

Hmmmm, this is new to me. The only planet I have in my chart that is in its own sign is really the last planet (save Chiron in Aquaruis) after the ASC and is Saturn in Capricorn in the 10th?
What does this imply? Does the energy of the planet increase? Certainly as it is in the 10th it increases...does it affect decision making? or ASC issues?
Cassandra

[piercethevale]

Greetings. I beg to differ a bit from Starlink on this.
I've always regarded Sakoian & Ackers "Astrological Handbook" as one of the best 'handbooks' available. It's because of their reference to metaphysical and paranormal attributes and proclivities bestowed and or influenced by astrological configurations that I primarily stick to their interpretations as I have found them to be perceptive and true in such regard.
That aside here is what they say about mutual reception final depositors.

"Another special case occurs when two planets in mutual reception are paired as the final depositors of the other planets. In this case the two planets act in partnership as the deciding influence on the persons' course of action. Jupiter in Capricorn and Saturn in Sagittarius are an example. If Jupiter and Saturn are together the final depositors of all or most of the planets in the horoscope they would together be the final determinant in decision-making. However, other factors, such as exaltation, detriment, or fall, often make one of the two stronger than the other. An example is a mutual reception of Mars in Capricorn and Saturn in Aries. Here Mars is in the sign of its' exaltation while Saturn is in the sign of its' fall. Thus Mars will dominate Saturn, and desire and ambition will over rule the Saturian priciple of caution and reserve. These two signs are also in square aspect to each other, indicating that Mars and Saturn have a tendency to fight each other here. Sometimes both planets are weak, as when Venus is in Scorpio and Mars is in Libra. Since both planets are in the signs of their detriment and are basically of opposite nature, they will tend either to neutrilize each other or to mutually saddle each other with their unwanted burdens.
If both planets in mutual reception are in compatible signs, such as the Moon in Taurus and Venus in Cancer, one can still be stronger, since the Moon is exalted in Taurus and may be given added strength by house placement. An example is the Moon in the Tenth House and Venus in the Twelfth."

I personally have Mars in Gemini and Mercury in Aries as the final depositors in mutual reception in my birth chart. Thus everything comes down to thought [Mercury] and action [Mars]. Yet Merc. is in my 6th house and dignified by this placement and Mars is in my 7th and is in detriment by this placement...thus the "thinking' predominates over the action.
I have often found myself in positions/situations that require fast thinking and action and as the old adage goes "Think before you act"...this has been a blessing of an aspect.
For example I loved to play the game of baseball as a youngster and made a fine infielder...I also played tennis competively for about 8 years and lettered Varsity in High School and played for the mens team for two years [I dropped out after two years] at Sonoma State College in the early 1970s. I had a darn good net game, where fast thinking and action are required...[and I also had the best backhand I've ever seen...but I've yet to figure where Astrology granted me that 'backhand'.]

...so according to these authors/Astrologers [and my personal experience]; Yes, two planets in mutual reception can be final depositors.

[Frank]

Final Dispositors ONLY happen when there is ONE planet placed in its own Domicile.

Mutual Reception by Domicile and multiple planets in their own Domicile negate any chance of having a Final Dispositor.

The term that I use for things that chart factors dispose to (including Final Dispositors, multiple planets in Domicile, mutual receptions and multiple receptions) is "chart root". Please see my article on the Education board about this:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=17099

Please do not use the term Final Dispositor for configurations that are not truely Final Dispositor qualified.

There is enough co-opting of terms incorrectly in astrology as it is - let's not muddy the waters even further.

[gemini59]

But what would a final Dispositor do? Saturn in Capricorn in the 10th in my case...no other planets in its own domicile. What does it do?

[gemini59]

Okay so I read Franks article...that helped

[piercethevale]

Originally Posted by Frank

Final Dispositors ONLY happen when there is ONE planet placed in its own Domicile.

Mutual Reception by Domicile and multiple planets in their own Domicile negate any chance of having a Final Dispositor.

The term that I use for things that chart factors dispose to (including Final Dispositors, multiple planets in Domicile, mutual receptions and multiple receptions) is "chart root". Please see my article on the Education board about this:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=17099

Please do not use the term Final Dispositor for configurations that are not truely Final Dispositor qualified.

There is enough co-opting of terms incorrectly in astrology as it is - let's not muddy the waters even further.

I think you're a little hung up on semantics here.
The point is that some planet[s] is the final determinate in the course of decision making. Two planets paired where one is dominate over the other is so nearly like your strict definition of "Mutual Reception"
Now, a circle of depositors is certainly not a final depositor as it is an endless cycle.
What this is system of determination is based on is just basically about discovering another dominate force in the chart and its' contribution to the overall tenor of the chart and of course the personality of the individual.

[starlink]

Hi Pierce, I liked what you wrote about the different strength of the planets, because ;I also look at them that way and I understand that you would see the final dispositor of a mutual reception as the final dispositor. I also have Sakoyan's book btw.. But keeping it strictly traditional, you can see the problems with mutual receptions between Jupiter and Neptune because Neptune did not exists in antique astrology. The modern MR I would just consider therefore as a supportive situation between those two planets. I still would only take Jupiter when it is placed in Sagittarius though, not in Pisces.

Still, I must agree (and am glad I got it right) with Frank that there can only be one dispositor , placed in it's own sign, like in my example with my own Mars. In my case it is a continuous string. I dont have other planets in own sign in my chart.

Traditionally seen my Mars is not aspecting any other planet unless you take a 6° outgoing aspect with Venus as a valid conjunction. It trines MC and forms an inconjunct with Moon in 12 and Uranus in 7. There was also no talk of inconjuncts in those days. I strongly feel that this Mars of mine is my chart savior as my other personal planets are not strong. Venus in fall but in house 5, in her Joy, Sun peregrine in Taurus, Moon in fall in Scorpio, and Mercury not all to fantastic in Taurus but in his Joy in 6th house. Jupiter almost peregrine in Scorpio and Saturn in detriment in Leo. Just AWful!! But my life so far has been really good (roalercoaster, sure, but exciting). So I think that this very strong Mars as final dispositor indeed has "ruled my life" so to say

[starlink]

Hi Pierce, I liked what you wrote about the different strength of the planets, because ;I also look at them that way and I understand that you would see the final dispositor of a mutual reception as the final dispositor. I also have Sakoyan's book btw.. But keeping it strictly traditional, you can see the problems with mutual receptions between Jupiter and Neptune because Neptune did not exists in antique astrology. The modern MR I would just consider therefore as a supportive situation between those two planets (for bad or for worse according to their strength and position in house).

I still would only take Jupiter when it is placed in Sagittarius though, not in Pisces.

Still, I must agree (and am glad I got it right) with Frank that there can only be one dispositor , placed in it's own sign, like in my example with my own Mars. In my case it is a continuous string. I dont have other planets in own sign in my chart.

Traditionally seen my Mars is not aspecting any other planet unless you take a 6° outgoing aspect with Venus as a valid conjunction. It trines MC and forms an inconjunct with Moon in 12 and Uranus in 7. There was also no talk of inconjuncts in those days. I strongly feel that this Mars of mine is my chart savior as my other personal planets are not strong. Venus in fall but in house 5, in her Joy, Sun peregrine in Taurus, Moon in fall in Scorpio, and Mercury not all to fantastic in Taurus but in his Joy in 6th house. Jupiter almost peregrine in Scorpio and Saturn in detriment in Leo. Just AWful!! But my life so far has been really good (roalercoaster, sure, but exciting). So I think that this very strong Mars as final dispositor indeed has "ruled my life" so to say

[R4VEN]

Originally Posted by piercethevale

I think you're a little hung up on semantics here.
The point is that some planet[s] is the final determinate in the course of decision making. Two planets paired where one is dominate over the other is so nearly like your strict definition of "Mutual Reception"
Now, a circle of depositors is certainly not a final depositor as it is an endless cycle.
What this is system of determination is based on is just basically about discovering another dominate force in the chart and its' contribution to the overall tenor of the chart and of course the personality of the individual.

I am following this discussion with interest. Still bewildered, though.

One of my sons has the mutual reception between Jupiter in Pisces and Neptune in Sag as his dispositors. starlink, why is it necessary to only use planets which were `discovered' at the time of antique astrology? Does this mean that antique astrology is stuck in antiquity???? (My father would have loved antique astrology - he was stuck in antiquity also.)

[starlink]

why is it necessary to only use planets which were `discovered' at the time of antique astrology?

this is a very good question R4ven. I sometimes also ask myself the same question, especially when doing horary as many modern astrologers, including Hamaker Zondag, do seem to look at outer planets as significators. But yes, you could say that I guess.

So I think that the traditionalists want to do it the way astrology was invented, the pure astrology as when it was born. It's like being a catholic and just cannot add a bit of protestantism to what you say I guess.

A protestant however (like I would see myself astrologically, is far less traditional and would like to look at the helpful and positive things that traditional astrology can bring to him/her, so I DO mix.

I started out with modern, but in this forum my nose was firmly put on traditional astrology and I must admit (apart from the really medieval forecasting methods like Algol and having your head cut off and such), I get so much more information from traditional astrology out of a natal chart.

But I do use Pluto, Neptune and Uranus in natal chart delineation. Not in horary.
The difference for me nowadays is, that I look at both the rulers of Scorpio, Aquarius and Pisces.

When it comes to final dispositors, I think we must adhere to the planet in own sign variation. Now my question to Frank would be, which would qualify as the final dispositor in own sign in traditional astrology: Mars in Aries or Mars in Scorpio? as both, traditionally rule these signs. That is my only "I wonder" question.

Starlink

[Frank]

Originally Posted by starlink

t
When it comes to final dispositors, I think we must adhere to the planet in own sign variation. Now my question to Frank would be, which would qualify as the final dispositor in own sign in traditional astrology: Mars in Aries or Mars in Scorpio? as both, traditionally rule these signs. That is my only "I wonder" question.

Starlink

Both. Mars is the Domicile ruler of both Aries and Scorpio.

[gimzo23]

I must have missed that informative article by Frank there. Very enlightening for me, especially the descriptions on the final dispositor. It makes more sense now for me and why I always felt like having a big stellium in the 12th with “only” the Sun as the Final dispositor (and Asc ruler) there. I always put more weight to it being the Asc ruler, more so than it also being the Final dispositor, because I couldn’t completely grasp how this one interacts and could influence and color the rest of the chart and my being eventually. It makes sense now and I think I can see why a 12th house Sun placement doesn’t necessarily have the same "dominating" effect for everyone. I can see this in my sister’s chart. She also has a Leo Sun in the 12th, but there are no other planets in Leo, which makes her Sun stand on its own in the dispositor chain, while she has her Mercury smack on her Virgo Ascendant and the dispositor chain of the planets eventually end up in Mercury except for the Sun. So I suppose for me, the Sun wouldn’t have the same strong influence if it wasn't also the Asc. ruler, and/or if I didn't have any other planets in Leo which enables the planet chain to be led to the Sun eventually.

This leads me to wonder, could a planet still be called or considered a final dispositor, if in a chart there would be no other planets in the sign where the final dispositor planet is in its domicile? So that final dispositor wouldn't really be final, since it stands all alone in its sign and there is no chain leading up to it through any other planets in that sign eventually. I’m thinking no other planets in their domicile or mutual receptions in the chart. How would that be called? I guess that’s no final dispositor but only “self-dispositor”? So to see if that planet would or could act or have a strong influence in the chart, I would suppose the other essential dignities would have to be considered and how the planet is aspected and connected with other planets in the chart? I would guess with such a planet being on its own and no other planets in their domicile or mutual receptions could strengthen as well as weaken it? Maybe similarly to an unaspected planet?

[waybread]

I think "depositor" and "mutual reception" are among those astro-concepts like "ruler" that have more than one definition. I think you can look at either so-called "natural" rulers, like Mercury of Virgo; or house-cusp rulers (say, Venus as ruler of the first house & chart if Taurus is rising) and then do a sort of "bicycle tour" of the chart.

Of course the gold standard is when you have a planet in the sign it rules (its domicile.) Many of us do not have such a planet. So here are some other ways to get at the issue.

You can use either traditional or modern rulers. Maybe consider both.

(1) OK, if I wish to learn what planet deposits my sun in Aquarius, I could look at its "natural" modern ruler, Uranus. I have Uranus in Gemini, ruled by Mercury. I have Mercury in Aquarius, ruled by Uranus. With Uranus in Gemini, we get into a kind of stalemate, so we could say that Uranus and Gemini are in mutual reception.

2.) Again looking at natural rulers, suppose I take the traditional ruler of Aquarius, which is Saturn. My Saturn is in Virgo. Virgo is ruled by Mercury. So this way, I also end up with a repetitive Mercury-Saturn feedback loop: or mutual reception.

3.) Suppose I look at my sun's house cusp ruler. It would vary depending upon the house system used, but again, looking at my Aquarian sun; with Aquarius on the cusp I get either a Mercury-Uranus or a Mercury-Saturn feedback loop. Ditto in unequal house-systems that position Saturn (Capricorn) as the "accidental ruler" of the cusp of my sun's house.

4.) This works for my other planets. Suppose I want to look at my Mars in Pisces. With traditional rulers, I could look to my Jupiter in Capricorn, which gets me back into a Saturn-Mercury loop. With Neptune as the modern ruler of Pisces, I would look at my Neptune in Libra, with "natural ruler" Venus in Aquarius, which gets us back to the same feedback loop. If I look at Virgo's ruler as Neptune's accidental house cusp-ruler, I am back into the same 2-planet endless loop. Moon in Leo? It's "naturally" ruled by my sun in Aquarius. Ditto again.

In fact the only planet in my chart for which I wouldn't get into some kind of Mercuy-Saturn or Mercury-Uranus loop, could be the moon: I have Cancer on the cusp of my Leo moon's house in unequal house systems, so if I work with accidental rulers, my moon is pretty self-contained.

So when you get two planets in a kind of stalemate or never-ending feedback loop, that is mutual reception.

Planets in mutual reception need not have a tight relationship with one another elsewhere in the chart. My Uranus-Mercury forms no major aspect. My Saturn-Mercury pair forms a quincunx.

Such planets will probably be important in your life, but you can also look for collateral evidence. Mercury happens to be my chart ruler and is exalted in Aquarius. Uranus conjuncts my MC within minutes. Saturn opposes my sun, and is getting closer all the time by progression.

Here is a modern definition of mutual reception from James R. Lewis, The Astrology Book: The Encyclopedia of Heavenly Influences (p. 478): "Two planets are in mutual reception when they are in each other's signs. If in a given horoscope, for example, Mercury is in Aries (which is ruled by Mars) and Mars is in Gemini (which is ruled by Mercury) then Mercury and Mars are in mutual reception." Lewis says these planets operate like a conjunction. I am not so sure.

[R4VEN]

Originally Posted by gimzo23

So that final dispositor wouldn't really be final, since it stands all alone in its sign and there is no chain leading up to it through any other planets in that sign eventually. I’m thinking no other planets in their domicile or mutual receptions in the chart. How would that be called? I guess that’s no final dispositor but only “self-dispositor”? So to see if that planet would or could act or have a strong influence in the chart, I would suppose the other essential dignities would have to be considered and how the planet is aspected and connected with other planets in the chart? I would guess with such a planet being on its own and no other planets in their domicile or mutual receptions could strengthen as well as weaken it? Maybe similarly to an unaspected planet?

gimzo23, I am on a learning curve here, and I'm still in the dark a bit. For me, it's the melding of the ancient and modern, and I think waybread has done a good job of describing that in her post above this one.

I was led to beginning this thread by examining the flow charts of dispositors for my charts I have saved on astro.com. This I was doing since I have come to realise that Jupiter in Sag in my natal chart provides a very powerful influence which seeps throughout every area of my life. I have no other planets in Sagittarius, so Jupiter stands alone. All my other planets disposit to either my Sun in Leo or Moon in Cancer. Thus, I have 3 dispositors, but the Jupiter in its domicile feels strong to me, and the older I get the more philosophical I become, and the more it is that Truth becomes a significant value by which I try to live my life.

You mention this as being like an unaspected planet, and I would disagree with that. An unaspected planet is like a balloon which you inflate then let it go, and it flies around the room uncontrollably. A person with an unaspected planet is usually unaware of how they they come across when they over or under-express the planet, but with a planet in its own sign - for me, anyway - there is a conscious awareness of how valuable this is, and that it must be used wisely. I also have Jupiter forming some nice aspects, so I'm sure this helps.

The other chart I have on astro.com which is similar is that for the beginning of the Woodstock music festival in 1969. This was the cry of the Pluto in Leo generation - almost an act of `look at me, look at me, and listen to me!' The dispositors are Mercury, and Sun in Leo stands alone. Whilst no final dispositor, those 2 planets certainly underpin the creation of the festival itself.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into this.

[piercethevale]

Originally Posted by R4VEN

gimzo23, I am on a learning curve here, and I'm still in the dark a bit. For me, it's the melding of the ancient and modern, and I think waybread has done a good job of describing that in her post above this one.

I was led to beginning this thread by examining the flow charts of dispositors for my charts I have saved on astro.com. This I was doing since I have come to realise that Jupiter in Sag in my natal chart provides a very powerful influence which seeps throughout every area of my life. I have no other planets in Sagittarius, so Jupiter stands alone. All my other planets disposit to either my Sun in Leo or Moon in Cancer. Thus, I have 3 dispositors, but the Jupiter in its domicile feels strong to me, and the older I get the more philosophical I become, and the more it is that Truth becomes a significant value by which I try to live my life.

You mention this as being like an unaspected planet, and I would disagree with that. An unaspected planet is like a balloon which you inflate then let it go, and it flies around the room uncontrollably. A person with an unaspected planet is usually unaware of how they they come across when they over or under-express the planet, but with a planet in its own sign - for me, anyway - there is a conscious awareness of how valuable this is, and that it must be used wisely. I also have Jupiter forming some nice aspects, so I'm sure this helps.

The other chart I have on astro.com which is similar is that for the beginning of the Woodstock music festival in 1969. This was the cry of the Pluto in Leo generation - almost an act of `look at me, look at me, and listen to me!' The dispositors are Mercury, and Sun in Leo stands alone. Whilst no final dispositor, those 2 planets certainly underpin the creation of the festival itself.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into this.

I've always attributed the 'Rock Festivals/Concerts to the influence of the Neptune in Libra generation and that Neptune was in Scorpio in the '60s and at the time of Woodstock.
I believe it was the dual influences of Neptune in Libra aned Pluto in Leo from the '40s through the '50s that caused the "Flowerchildren/Hippie" phenomena.

...it's also of interest that Jesus was surely born with Neptune in Scorpio...

[gimzo23]

Originally Posted by R4VEN

gimzo23, I am on a learning curve here, and I'm still in the dark a bit. For me, it's the melding of the ancient and modern, and I think waybread has done a good job of describing that in her post above this one.

I was led to beginning this thread by examining the flow charts of dispositors for my charts I have saved on astro.com. This I was doing since I have come to realise that Jupiter in Sag in my natal chart provides a very powerful influence which seeps throughout every area of my life. I have no other planets in Sagittarius, so Jupiter stands alone. All my other planets disposit to either my Sun in Leo or Moon in Cancer. Thus, I have 3 dispositors, but the Jupiter in its domicile feels strong to me, and the older I get the more philosophical I become, and the more it is that Truth becomes a significant value by which I try to live my life.

You mention this as being like an unaspected planet, and I would disagree with that. An unaspected planet is like a balloon which you inflate then let it go, and it flies around the room uncontrollably. A person with an unaspected planet is usually unaware of how they they come across when they over or under-express the planet, but with a planet in its own sign - for me, anyway - there is a conscious awareness of how valuable this is, and that it must be used wisely. I also have Jupiter forming some nice aspects, so I'm sure this helps.

The other chart I have on astro.com which is similar is that for the beginning of the Woodstock music festival in 1969. This was the cry of the Pluto in Leo generation - almost an act of `look at me, look at me, and listen to me!' The dispositors are Mercury, and Sun in Leo stands alone. Whilst no final dispositor, those 2 planets certainly underpin the creation of the festival itself.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into this.

R4VEN, that's interesting you feel your lone standing Jupiter in Sag stronger than the other two planets in domicile that the rest of the planets disposit up to. Do you feel like this expanding to the house placements as well? That Jupiter’s house placement takes precedence and is of bigger importance in your life than the house placements of your Moon and Sun? Or is it based mainly on Jupiter’s sign placement?

This makes me wonder, if working with modern planets and rulerships, how strong an outer planet if being the final dispositor, can have an influence on the sign placement it is in on a personal level. If it can get increased with all the other planets leading up to it through the dispositor chain, or if it just increases the theme of the house it is in, and the aspects it possibly makes to personal planets and points in the chart. Probably the latter.

[waybread]

R4ven, re: feeling more "Jupiterian". Do you have any planets that have progressed into (a) your 9th house, (b) Sagittarius, or (c) an aspect with your natal Jupiter?

I wonder if this isn't part of the overall ageing process, as well. Older people have had the time to process and reflect upon a lot more life-experience. They sure seem to travel a lot more in retirement.

[Shining Ray]

Originally Posted by R4VEN

I had a look through the Search facility for information on final dispositors, since I still do not feel confident in the knowledge of what this means - i.e. its significance in a chart.

There was an excellent thread from around 3 years ago in which Tim Wilson gave an easy step-by-step method of finding one's own dispositors.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...al+dispositors

My question relates to the situation when the final dispositors are a couple of planets in mutual reception - eg. Jupiter in Pisces and Neptune in Sagittarius

As I understand this, if these 2 planets in mutual reception are then in relation to one another - eg, in this case, they'd probably form a square if they were in relationship with one another - then they carry a strong influence over the whole chart. Is this how it works?

If these two planets in mutual reception - and final dispositors - do not form an aspect with one another, is the `power' they have as final dispositors lessened?

Any ideas/feedback welcomed. I'm trying desperately to `get' this.

(or should I just forget it, and stick to what I know?????)

Dispositors always remind me of the Bone Song, you know the one "The knee bone is connected to the thigh bone, and the thigh bone is connected to the hip bone", altogether now. OK it just me singing to myself . I have a mutual relationship between my Sun, Jupiter and Neptune, the song always sounds like a broken record when I reach these planets.

If you want real help , these video’s are interesting by Kevin Burk, it’s interactive astrology here. I do think they are important and mutual receptions tend to indicate planets that get along in the chart and support one another. Other planetary placements that are not in tune with these planets can feel left out of the song, so to speak. I see mutual receptions as having that sort of influence. If you understand what I am getting at. Not sure if that is the answer you are searching for, it’s just an idea for interpretation, I have always favoured looking at it mutual dispositors this way. I get stranger in my interpretations as I get older.

[R4VEN]

Originally Posted by waybread

R4ven, re: feeling more "Jupiterian". Do you have any planets that have progressed into (a) your 9th house, (b) Sagittarius, or (c) an aspect with your natal Jupiter?

I wonder if this isn't part of the overall ageing process, as well. Older people have had the time to process and reflect upon a lot more life-experience. They sure seem to travel a lot more in retirement.

Good point, waybread. Have no progr planets in Sag (other than Jupiter still) but prog prog in 9th. I agree with your 2nd paragraph in that I have become more philosophical with age, but from the age of 13 - when one of my siblings died in an accident - I have tended to be more philosophical than most.

And gimzo, you commented upon the house placements, and their influence.......... I have natally in 11th. Until the age of around 50, the group-thing was my wallpaper for Jupiter expression; I even worked as a Group Worker until my late 40's. In the last few years, the 11th house has taken on a more Aquarian flavour for me. An acquaintance recently told me that for someone who has never travelled outside my native country, I have a well-developed world view - whatever that means. (This person has travelled extensively.)

Quote from Shining Ray:
"mutual receptions tend to indicate planets that get along in the chart and support one another. Other planetary placements that are not in tune with these planets can feel left out of the song, so to speak. I see mutual receptions as having that sort of influence. If you understand what I am getting at."
Yes, that is a good description of what I consider happens with 2 dispositors in mutul reception.

[Vinyasa]

When I think about final dispositors in mutual reception I also - like Shining Ray - like to visualize it in musical terms. Actually, I think of them as if they are the two hands of a piano player, able to create harmonies of the highest octaves, but only if working close together. It is not uncommon that one of the two makes a mistake, loses the tempo, momentarily lands on the wrong key... And the most difficult the partitur, the highest the possibility. However the second hand is always there, to keep the melody stable and the music flowing and practice can only bring perfection - or at least improvement.

Like Piercethevale, I have in my natal chart Mars in Gemini (10th) and Mercury in Aries (8th) as final dispositors in minor aspect between them (Quintile), relating both to thought structure and to communication (dynamic) style. Communication is at its best forceful, dynamic and at its worst aggressive. And aggressiveness is most often witty, playful, often even charming (Venus conjuncting Mars and Uranus in trine support the more harmonious expressions of aggressiveness, competitiveness, determination). Moreover, I adore debates; I participate in them with a lot of pleasure. I understand there is a positive interplay between the two and each constitutes a filter for the expression of the other.

A very dear friend of mine has Mercury in Taurus (10th) and Venus in Gemini (in the 11th) as final dispositors of her chart, not aspecting each other. Mercury rules the 3rd but it is Rx and Venus receives an exact opposition from Neptune. The way she speaks sounds unfortunately often tiring, repetitive, false and even theatrical (Asc Leo in exact sextile to Venus) and communication is often misinterpreted, though of course deep inside she is none of these.

I understand that for some people it is easy to identify the final dispositor and in that case the planet’s energy is – within the limits of a chart system – more autonomous or at least outstanding and easily identifiable. For those with mutual reception the final dispositors are complementary to each other and either strengthened or weakened in their dual representation.

[piercethevale]

I believe this whole thing should be seen as "Charts of dynamic final deposition" as opposed to those "Charts of little or no determinate deposition". As those that contain an endless cycle of depositors...where-in no Planet or Luminary is found in the sign of its' rulership and no matter what Planet/Luminary one chooses to begin his dilineation from you get an endless cycle of depositors.
These are the kind of people who have extreme difficulty making descisions...making up their minds...no Planet/Luminary has the final say.

But two Planets/Luminaries in mutual reception and paired as the final depositors.....means that [let's use Mercury and Mars as examples] 'X' amount of Planets/Luminaries deposit into Mercury and 'Y' amount of Planets/Luminaries deposit into Mars...And that is the PRIME THING TO REMEMBER is that all the rest of the Planets/Luminaries come down to ONE OF TWO FINAL DEPOSITORS in this particular case either Mercury [THOUGHT] or MARS [ACTION]...where-as other charts have the similiar in tenor, singular dominant Planet/Luminary i.e. a chart with a true "Final Depositor"

or the other basic division, those that have multiple depositors... or a chart with none, as I just described above...

Remember, the main similiarity of the 'final depositor' type and 'mutual reception final depositor' type chart is that one object is always coming down to being the deciding factor eventually...using my example above... Mercury or Mars, where-as in the first type... i.e. a true final depositor type, [let's say] only Mercury is...but the point is is that only in these two type of charts can ONE OBJECT [in this case Mercury] possibly be the final determinant for all Planetary/Luminary energies.

In a chart with multiple depositors,... let's say you have Mercury in Gemini and Venus in Virgo and all other Planets/Luminaries depositing into other signs...then in this type of chart Mercury can only be the determinant for Venus and its' Own [Mercury] energies. Or in some case Mecury could possibly not bel a determinant at all, if say the above example were in the signs Libra and Taurus respectively.
In a chart with an endless chain Mercury can never be the determinant at all, in fact no Planet/Luminary is.
In yet other charts Mercury will only deposit itself.

The point of all this, being that two dominant factors [ i.e. "mutual reception-final depositor" type personalities] is an indication of a personality that is pretty descisive and similiar, by observance, in tenor [and at times may appear to be identical to] to a person with a singular dominant factor i.e. the 'Final Depositor" type.
...or at least by comparison to one another as to the other basic depositor type individuals...i.e. singular, multiple and non depositor type personalities

[R4VEN]

Thank you for that description/explanation, Vinyasa. It makes a lot of sense to me. I liked the way you described how your mutual dispositors in MR works for you. I think that the quintile between them is a significant one, and helps the 2 planets to interrelate.

Originally Posted by Vinyasa

When I think about final dispositors in mutual reception I also - like Shining Ray - like to visualize it in musical terms. Actually, I think of them as if they are the two hands of a piano player, able to create harmonies of the highest octaves, but only if working close together. It is not uncommon that one of the two makes a mistake, loses the tempo, momentarily lands on the wrong key... And the most difficult the partitur, the highest the possibility. However the second hand is always there, to keep the melody stable and the music flowing and practice can only bring perfection - or at least improvement.

Like Piercethevale, I have in my natal chart Mars in Gemini (10th) and Mercury in Aries (8th) as final dispositors in minor aspect between them (Quintile), relating both to thought structure and to communication (dynamic) style. Communication is at its best forceful, dynamic and at its worst aggressive. And aggressiveness is most often witty, playful, often even charming (Venus conjuncting Mars and Uranus in trine support the more harmonious expressions of aggressiveness, competitiveness, determination). Moreover, I adore debates; I participate in them with a lot of pleasure. I understand there is a positive interplay between the two and each constitutes a filter for the expression of the other.

A very dear friend of mine has Mercury in Taurus (10th) and Venus in Gemini (in the 11th) as final dispositors of her chart, not aspecting each other. Mercury rules the 3rd but it is Rx and Venus receives an exact opposition from Neptune. The way she speaks sounds unfortunately often tiring, repetitive, false and even theatrical (Asc Leo in exact sextile to Venus) and communication is often misinterpreted, though of course deep inside she is none of these.

I understand that for some people it is easy to identify the final dispositor and in that case the planet’s energy is – within the limits of a chart system – more autonomous or at least outstanding and easily identifiable. For those with mutual reception the final dispositors are complementary to each other and either strengthened or weakened in their dual representation.