Refuse your "lessons"

[RuledbySaturn]

Have you ever thought of this or tried this: Let's say you know what lessons you are here to learn by looking at your birth chart or just by living life (because the same "lessons" usually keep appearing). Have you ever thought of the idea that you have the right to say NO to any "lessons" you do not wish to learn?

For example, I am a Capricorn, say one of my lessons is to learn patience. And say I tell the Universe, "No, I am here to have fun. I refuse to learn patience. Save that for someone else..."

My opinion is that we have the right to say No. If you've tried it, maybe you'd like to share your findings?

[gaer]

Originally Posted by RuledbySaturn

Have you ever thought of this or tried this: Let's say you know what lessons you are here to learn by looking at your birth chart or just by living life (because the same "lessons" usually keep appearing). Have you ever thought of the idea that you have the right to say NO to any "lessons" you do not wish to learn?

For example, I am a Capricorn, say one of my lessons is to learn patience. And say I tell the Universe, "No, I am here to have fun. I refuse to learn patience. Save that for someone else..."

My opinion is that we have the right to say No. If you've tried it, maybe you'd like to share your findings?

It doesn't work. If you are here to learn a lesson and you refuse to, it always comes back again and again and again until you listen.

I'd be shocked if anyone else here has had different experiences.

[katydid]

Sure, as long as you like living on the Earth, you can just keep refusing your earthly lessons, that way you know you will keep coming back here. It may be harder to learn those lessons of patience when you are a fly though....jjust kidding

[RuledbySaturn]

I will not have to come back to Earth again because I've already worked hard and accomplished many things. They cannot force me because I've not met one successful business person in my life who does not have the power to override the planets and get what they want. They can not override my freewill. They never did. They just protect me silently.

[aquarius7000]

Hi,

This can be seen as a very vast topic which digs deep into the realms of Karma Astrology. In brief though, I too think that lessons that need to be learned keep coming back to you in the shape of different circumstances and through different people till they have been 'worked off' by you. I also feel that our unconscious self is always aware of this, but the conscious self may be led a bit astray in the world around us and refuse to work 'with' the soul/the unconscious self. That is when we may feel this inner tension and are, at all, aware that we "can or want to say no", that the choice exists. It is all a part of internal growth and evolution. For instance, I repeatedly encounter the theme of Nep-Ven square in relationships, and I know that there is a reason, a message behind it.

Btw, a thread along similar lines was recently started by Mayin in the 'Spiritual Realm' section: recurrent theme.

AQ7

[dreamtimez]

This relates to the law of karma You keeping coming back to earth, evolving, learning your lessons. When you have learnt all your lessons you achieve nirvana ... freedom from the cycle of birth and death.

[RuledbySaturn]

My clever idea was this: If someone keeps encountering issues in the love department for example, he/she can certain say: "From now on I stay single..." Therefore no more love issues because they won't ever be putting themselves in those situations where the Universe has any opportunities to throw them lessons. Speaking from personal experience, once you stop caring or wanting, the Universe has no power over you.

[katydid]

Originally Posted by RuledbySaturn

My clever idea was this: If someone keeps encountering issues in the love department for example, he/she can certain say: "From now on I stay single..." Therefore no more love issues because they won't ever be putting themselves in those situations where the Universe has any opportunities to throw them lessons. Speaking from personal experience, once you stop caring or wanting, the Universe has no power over you.

But isn't that a little like 'cutting off your nose, to spite your face.'?
I mean, the lessons of love are hard, and the potential pain is annoying and difficult, but it is better to have loved and lost then to never have loved at all, imo.
Staying single does not really solve anything, it just brings on loneliness and isolation, and prevents one from getting their lovin.

[Miss Venus]

haha.... I love the idea!

Yet, I have to agree with what katydid says.... if we use your same example of love, is it really living, not to experience it?

Maybe we need to learn in what AREA of love we choose to say No. For me, it would be to hold something back for myself, so, even with a broken heart, I know what lesson I kept missing, and kept going for guys who take, take and take.

I believe my lesson here is to hold back until I meet someone who also wants to give in a healthy way.

Just my thoughts....

[Rasalhague]

Originally Posted by RuledbySaturn

Have you ever thought of this or tried this: Let's say you know what lessons you are here to learn by looking at your birth chart or just by living life (because the same "lessons" usually keep appearing). Have you ever thought of the idea that you have the right to say NO to any "lessons" you do not wish to learn?

For example, I am a Capricorn, say one of my lessons is to learn patience. And say I tell the Universe, "No, I am here to have fun. I refuse to learn patience. Save that for someone else..."

My opinion is that we have the right to say No. If you've tried it, maybe you'd like to share your findings?

In the end I think it's how "refusing" or "accepting" a lesson is interpreted. Is it the immediate thing you're feeling that you need to conform to, or is it something you need to get smarter on without conforming to that immediate feeling?

The lessons I got offered and "refused" (and why):

- "Don't poke people where it hurts". I always got pulled back no the leash for that one. So frantically I researched and critically examined what it was I said and why that would hurt them. There were only a few times I saw that something was not wise, but often times I would come to the conclusion they were taking offense on something that could only be traced back to ego matters like jealousy, not acknowledging their own weakness and so on. So now, when I feel this lesson coming on and I know it can be traced back to ego matters I do not back down. Instead I hope these people poison themselves hating me; so hopefully the light will go on some day for them.

- "Know your place". This one really took the life out of me to figure out. Since in some situations it felt like the entire society was 'against' me, telling me to 'know my place'. I identified which rules I was not respecting only to form my own opinion about these rules. Some rules I understood to be important they be respected, other rules were applied unequally to young/old, female/male, this person/that person. I decided then and there that I wasn't going to know my place when the rules were only applying to subgroups or minorities and not everyone. Quite frankly, I hope that when I do not know my place, I shake up things well enough to break through the dogma.

- "Fit in better". This one is also partly 'know your place', though a little different. It's the result of defying 'know your place' and 'don't poke where it hurts'. You start feeling the pressure of missing out on things other people seem to be having. The answer so I figured out: it's the result of doing what is justified instead of doing what is accepted [but has no sufficient justification]. You will have to come to terms with the fact that there's no way you can avoid feeling lonely. Virgo/Cappy, sit on the mountain you just climbed but don't forget to smile at the theater going on in the valley (so I thought).

The lesson patience is pretty much the same. Take every scenario where you feel 'you're getting patience pushed onto yourself' and ask yourself as objectively as is possible if that is a justified request. Push on if it isn't justified, stand back when there's good reason to be patient. Reverse the tables on yourself.

It's not always "the path of the least resistance". It just depends on what's more important to you: justice or fitting in, just make sure it isn't only pride that makes you act 'contra'. When you do it for the right reasons, there's nothing to regret.

This is the essence for children of Saturn and Uranus. This is a way of succesfully learning a lesson for them. Not in the how many ways I can count to avoid a situation from repeating on itself. It's something I see forgotten a lot in the astrology community, which I regret and why I speak up.

Edit: As for the comments on love; people that "refuse", I'm sorry: don't avoid to tackle problems by fetching the horns, are just as capable and worthy of love. Their ardent nature makes them seem frightening or cold in the eyes of others; see paragraph 'Fitting in'. When it comes to this, our lesson as children of Saturn and Uranus is to learn to recognize who is not afraid to climb the mountain and enjoy the view together. By now I also know that it takes an enormous courage to do so and I come to understand it's not for everyone. Just like this lifestyle isn't for everyone.

I will not have to come back to Earth again because I've already worked hard and accomplished many things. They cannot force me because I've not met one successful business person in my life who does not have the power to override the planets and get what they want. They can not override my freewill. They never did. They just protect me silently.

It's nice to meet you!

[Steeler]

Once you've fallen in to the trap of reincarnation, you can just wait till you die again so that you can walk away from the light and go somewhere else. They can't force you and they know it, but they can manipulate you with their warm light and love, which I believe is an utter illusion, because they NEED us to keep coming back because they get their energy from us. I know this sounds insane, but I've been through my Kundalini awakening and have realised that the world is nothing but an illusion, which means the astral planes and the beings there too, but someone SOMEWHERE is abusing this fact and using it as a way to drain our own soul-energy away from us, which just keeps happening over and over again.

In my case I have so many different examples of Karma coming back to me that there is no question whatsoever that it wouldn't exist, but I do wonder what kind of GOD would want us to reincarnate here 10000000 times just to learn ONE lesson?
That's not my god, because I know I am already a perfect being and so is everyone else on this planet.
We've just been fooled for energy reasons to think otherwise.

So can you avoid your lessons? Yes. Stop reincarnating, walk away.
Hindus believe reincarnation is a trap, some Buddhist too...So it's not just me who sees this, so the whole point of NIRVANA or awakening, is so that you'll realise that you are inside a prison, but that the prison door is also always open.

[RuledbySaturn]

Rasalhague - Thank you for such a powerful post so brilliantly written,

This is what I believe about karma and "lessons": Where I've put in the effort I expect to see results. If results are not there after a reasonable amount of time I will take charge and consider this lesson "finished."

Most successful people I personally know do not use astrology. I see them do a bunch of "wrong" thing including making major moves on VOC moon, yet they turn out richer than everybody else I know - Such amazing ability to be above the influece of the planets and determine their own destiny - If I wasn't because I knew them personally I wouldn't believe it.

I can totally relate to what you are saying. Fitting in isn't my problem but that's because I just don't care - if you are good at what you do you usually end up in a leadership capacity anyway where one does not have to fit in unless by choice. Of course I know that this can be a double-edged sword since after a while one starts to expect that the Universe will accommodate one's needs 24/7, which is why I think you made such an excellent point about determining whether or not a request is justified before pushing on. I am old enough to not make premature moves yet controlling enough (haha) to not accept any lessons I find to be ridiculous, unnecessary, or unfair. So I know how you feel.

Of course, to be fair to the Universe, I know I do get what I want when I articulate my requests clearly - I admit that the things I haven't gotten was often due to the fact I was unclear about them. But as far as I am concerned, "patience lesson" is done. Period. Next lesson is to "articulate needs clearly."

It's nice meeting you, too! I've never written such a long post in my life...

[RuledbySaturn]

Steeler, I do not believe in reincarnation. I myself got into astrology to give me an edge in the marketplace, not to find out my "lessons." That's why I do not go to any regular spiritual or religious meetings because I know they would try to brainwash me.

BTW, Who are the "they" that you are referring to that want us to come back?

I will not reincarnate. Period.

[GreenMist]

I have a way of dealing with karma. If anything bad happens to me, I give it back three fold

Karma is not so clever now!

[RuledbySaturn]

Originally Posted by GreenMist

I have a way of dealing with karma. If anything bad happens to me, I give it back three fold

Karma is not so clever now!

Does it work?

[Steeler]

Ruledbysaturn, I have a feeling there is no point in discussing this with you,
since you have already made up your mind. I don't honestly care whether you believe in reincarnation or not, but that's what there is and it has been proven. You should read up on doctors like Brian Weiss, Michael Newton and so on if you're interested.

I've had past-life dreams because of my Kundalini awakening and I didn't believe in chakras, reincarnation or any of that stuff, because I thought it was all new-age nonsense. Well, this stuff is something that people have been writing about for centuries, it's not "new" and definitely not nonsense.

In your case, since you seem to be all about business, I believe that maybe some lessons are in order for you and your evolution. In my case I know Im done, but know that I could be fooled to come back again.

When it comes to Karma, it doesn't work in the same way with everyone. Horrible people get away with anything and people who do nothing whatsoever are constantly being hit by it. This I believe to show in what "level" you are on the evolution process. The "younger" you are, the less you notice Karma and can do whatever you please, but as you keep getting "older", Karma starts showing up at all times reminding you that your actions do have consequences. This is why as an example those who cause wars are still running around enjoying their money and power.

[Cupcake]

^that's a good point Steeler, I always felt that people that have it "easy" are younger souls, therefore their lessons are easier. Mine are too hard lol

[Nexus7]

I sometimes think that in readings there can be such an emphasis on 'learning lessons' that it can be a little oppressive - too much like horrendous cosmic karmic punishments that the querent is powerless to avoid.

I think it is up to each individual to decide for themselves where they have learnt the most in their particualr lifetime.

[Phylos]

I see a parallel between Refusing your "lessons" and having recurrent dreams. If you don't get em they keep coming back.

[RuledbySaturn]

Originally Posted by Steeler

When it comes to Karma, it doesn't work in the same way with everyone. Horrible people get away with anything and people who do nothing whatsoever are constantly being hit by it. This I believe to show in what "level" you are on the evolution process. The "younger" you are, the less you notice Karma and can do whatever you please, but as you keep getting "older", Karma starts showing up at all times reminding you that your actions do have consequences. This is why as an example those who cause wars are still running around enjoying their money and power.

In case anyone cares to know, I know plenty of seemingly successful people who suffer silently - not in areas the public can see that's why most don't know - so I know there exits some sort of Universal law (or "Karma" if that's what people want to call it), but I simply can't stand the idea of reincarnation lol. In my opinion, that's like forcing, or "tricking," like you mentioned, someone to go to a particular college when the person really belongs somewhere else. Still interested in learning someday who those beings are that you've mentioned that want us to come back because I think it would shed light for a lot of people on this issue. I myself will not be tricked into coming back here, either.

[Rasalhague]

Originally Posted by RuledbySaturn

Rasalhague - Thank you for such a powerful post so brilliantly written,

This is what I believe about karma and "lessons": Where I've put in the effort I expect to see results. If results are not there after a reasonable amount of time I will take charge and consider this lesson "finished."

Most successful people I personally know do not use astrology. I see them do a bunch of "wrong" thing including making major moves on VOC moon, yet they turn out richer than everybody else I know - Such amazing ability to be above the influece of the planets and determine their own destiny - If I wasn't because I knew them personally I wouldn't believe it.

I can totally relate to what you are saying. Fitting in isn't my problem but that's because I just don't care - if you are good at what you do you usually end up in a leadership capacity anyway where one does not have to fit in unless by choice. Of course I know that this can be a double-edged sword since after a while one starts to expect that the Universe will accommodate one's needs 24/7, which is why I think you made such an excellent point about determining whether or not a request is justified before pushing on. I am old enough to not make premature moves yet controlling enough (haha) to not accept any lessons I find to be ridiculous, unnecessary, or unfair. So I know how you feel.

Of course, to be fair to the Universe, I know I do get what I want when I articulate my requests clearly - I admit that the things I haven't gotten was often due to the fact I was unclear about them. But as far as I am concerned, "patience lesson" is done. Period. Next lesson is to "articulate needs clearly."

It's nice meeting you, too! I've never written such a long post in my life...

Exactly; and I'm all for the fact of pulling out when your best efforts go to waste. Where that point exactly is, for each and everyone of us something different. Where ever I leave and know I am finished, the people and situations created that gave me trouble will have to know to my satisfaction that I won't be swayed off my path by any other reasons then my own honest boredom with it. Imho, I don't want to catch myself using karma or life lessons as an excuse for stepping down at the wrong timing.

"Fitting or not fitting" is more a Uranian theme (I have this planet in my 10th house). The funny part about it: my father has Uranus in the 10th house too. In the karma book, it's the same lesson; passed on from father to daughter.

[lilllybelle]

Originally Posted by Steeler

When it comes to Karma, it doesn't work in the same way with everyone. Horrible people get away with anything and people who do nothing whatsoever are constantly being hit by it. This I believe to show in what "level" you are on the evolution process. The "younger" you are, the less you notice Karma and can do whatever you please, but as you keep getting "older", Karma starts showing up at all times reminding you that your actions do have consequences. This is why as an example those who cause wars are still running around enjoying their money and power.

This is an intresting idea, but I don't agree with it. It's a question I wrestled with a lot at one point in my life. I dated a man who wasn't into religion or spirituality, and he had a great life. He partied a lot, and he was loaded with money and quite happy.

I, on the other hand, had spent many years of my life following a spiritual path, and I was very unhappy and had a lot of problems. I couldn't understand how I put so much effort into growing spiritually while he partied like a rock star and was so much happier than I was. I tried to tell myself it was because I was more "spiritually advanced". I realize now that was a form of spiritual arrogance and a way to lick my wounds for the unfairness of it all. I think it is an illusion to see myself as more spiritually advanced than someone else. It's an ignorance that kept me from growing closer to other people when I believed it. We are all spiritual beings.

I don't think we have a way of knowing why a person got a certain lot in life. Our human brains can't fully comprehend karma.

God has a plan for all of us, and none of us can truely understand how karma works. Some people, whether a young or old soul, were designed to have an easy life or a hard life. Take Jesus and Buddha for example, I think they were probally both old souls. Jesus had a hard life in many aspects, while comparatively, it sounds like Buddha had a a pretty easy life.

I know a lot of people want to get off of the wheel of reincarnation, but I love life and earth. I suspect heaven is a much better place, but I hope to come back to this place at least 3 or 5 more times. Sometimes I get tired of life and I want to rest in the arms of my maker, but earth is so good.

Another thought that this thread has brought to mind for me is how do we truely know what our lessons are. I've had situations where I was dead set on thinking something was a lesson for me. Then time would pass, and I would see that the real lesson was learning to walk away from that which I thought was a lesson. Sorry, I know that is an aggravatingly messy idea, but it's something I've experienced.

I have seen people whom had bad luck with relationships decide to walk away from relationships altogether and live happily as a single person.
This took a lot for me to believe due to my emphasis on libra, but it's true, a person can stay single forever and be happy. We don't have to hammer out every kink in our soul. Not all problems have to be overcome. They can be dropped.

I apoligize for my long post, but I found this thread to be very interesting.

[EJ53]

Originally Posted by RuledbySaturn

.....I am a Capricorn, say one of my lessons is to learn patience. And say I tell the Universe, "No, I am here to have fun. I refuse to learn patience. Save that for someone else..."

This fits perfectly with Christ's declaration that "the sins of the father (eternal Soul) are visited upon the sons (single lifetime Egos)".....Here, the "sin" would be the Soul's failure to persuade the Ego to "freely do It's will".....saving that lesson (and creating another) for the Ego of a future lifetime.

There would be no karmic consequences for the Ego in this lifetime, since this comes through the Soul connection (which it has chosen freely to ignore).

So, the "I" to which you refer is indeed able to tell the Universe/Soul to "shove off".

EJ

[Nexus7]

I was curious to know where this question was coming from, anyway.

With the Victorian punishment, the naughty child who refuses his/her food gets it presented again at the next meal, and the next..and the next. Along, presumably, with whippings and beatings if he child still 'fails' to learn his or her lesson. Even where there are maggots there too, conceivably.

Well, I might conceivably conclude that the Victorians were monstrous sadists, not that the child 'needed' to learn a lesson, at least not to this degree. A huge amoun of cruelty gets peddled in the name of 'spiritual development' it has often seemed to me.

Ego, soul....I would find it hard to believe in a sadistic karmic judge, or God, that would expect us to take on something our very being is totally unable to accept. I was never punished in the Victorian way I have described, but I was certanly made to eat eggs, which for some reason I have always found inedible: luckily not fried ones, but I still cannot tolerate them.

The point I am trying to make, RuledbySaturn, is that I don't think anyone should feel that they are being manipulated like puppets by 'cosmic' forces that decree that we have to 'become' something that is totally alien to our being. I do remember reading the novels of someone who grew up in a Catholic background and her angsts that maybe 'God' might demand of her something greater than she was able to give - however, there is also a plethora of oher biographies that indicate that 'God' was not the problem, but probably a thoroughly dysfunctional upbringing, with a human father who had demanded thoroughly impossible standards because of his own dysfunctional upbringing.....Again, I think you have to decide for yourself what 'lessons' in patience or otherwise your chart might 'expect' from you, but then again, I don't know how 'impatient' the rest of your chart might be!

Do you recognise the need to learn patience? - well then, the seed or the desire to be moe patient at least is already there, though I am no fan of the idea that there can be no acceptance or recogniton of the fact that oher factors in your temperament may be less patient. As oher people have suggested to you, it could be that you may need to accept it if there are other factors in your char that are not so patient.

What is is about your 'lessons' that worries you?

The chart is only a chart, a map, and 'you' are more 3-dimensional than it, or any interpretation that raises angsts that maybe need not have been raised.

[starlink]

I like the subject and this is what I personally think. Believing or not believing in Karma, the fact remains that in our lives we are often hitting our heads over and over again against the same wall. Now you can think:" oh oh,this is a karmic lesson I have to learn" and try to avoid making the same mistake, or you can say :" oh oh, here I go again and it really is not pleasant. I have to try to NOT do this anymore. I dont want this pain or frustration anymore. Whether you want to call that head banging "karma" or not, fact is, it is unpleasant and you will do something about it until it does not hurt anymore.

So, RuledbySaturn, if the reactions you get because of your impatience do not hurt you or bother you, well, then there is nothing to worry about is there? You dont have to think: "I better get that one fixed otherwise in another life I will get hit again." It is about THIS life. I personally do not want to be bothered or hurt by some repeating unpleasantry over and over again in THIS life. We dont remember anyways what happened back then. So as long as your impatience does not cause you grieve, just stay that way.

Starlink