12th House Saturn Transit for two (saturn returns)

Francesca

Well-known member
I am having a transit by saturn of my 12th house passing over my natal saturn/pluto conjunction. An old lover of mine is undergoing the same transit in another month or so. Saturn will also be opposing his moon at the same time. Ouch!

After many years of not thinking about him much, I am currently obsessed!
After much self-examination, I have concluded that I was scared of emotional intimacy and rejected him out of fear. He was probably my "soulmate".

My question is: How much of this turmoil is necessary growth, and what is self destructive behavior? He has been in a stable marriage for many years.
I wrote him a letter (NOT a mushy loveletter) explaining the turmoil and the insights I had had, indicating he didn't have to respond. Now, of course,I am in an agony of wanting him to respond.

Would anyone care to give it a shot? Here is the data:
Me 7/17/47 9:21 AM Niagara Falls NY
Him 8/29/47 time unk. Niagara Falls NY
 

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
I have uploaded your individual natal charts, synastry chart, composite chart, and davison relationship chart:

Francesca:



Old Lover:



Synastry Chart:



Composite Chart:



Davison Relationship Chart:



Arian Maverick
 

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
Now, I do not know the details of this relationship, but you and your old lover have some beautiful synastry connections!
love-smiley-030.gif


  • Your old lover's Virgo stellium--particularly his natal Venus--is tightly conjunct your Ascendant!
  • His natal Mars is tightly conjunct your natal Venus!
  • His North Node is tightly conjunct your Midheaven!

Your composite chart is pretty interesting, as well:

  • Saturn, Mercury, and Pluto form a tight conjunction in Leo and are sandwiched between Venus and the Sun
  • Your composite Moon is located at a critical degree in Aries
  • Your composite North Node is located at a critical degree in Taurus
  • Mars and Uranus form a tight conjunction in Gemini
  • This chart also contains a T-square involving an opposition between composite Chiron in Scorpio and composite Moon in Aries, both square composite Venus in Leo.

The Sabian symbol of Venus, the apex planet of this T-square is:

128__(8°)
PROLETARIAN, BURNING WITH SOCIAL PASSION, STIRS UP A CROWD Leavening of the inchoate materials of a new order by a forceful vision born of repression and misfortune. Revolution.
___*When positive, the degree is a determination to share the soul's vision and to make a permanent impact on history, and when negative, futile ranting against a multitude of superficial ills

I have learned from Kite that the energy of a T-square often manifests in the point opposite its apex. The sabian symbol for this degree is:

308__(8°)
WAX FIGURES DISPLAY BEAUTIFUL GOWNS IN STORE-WINDOWS Need for public presentation of virtues and life standards. Exteriorization of value, that it may be shared with others.
___*When positive, the degree is achievement through the effective dramatization of human character on some level of everyday understanding, and when negative, futile effort to recapture outworn experience.

I know that this information is not exactly related to your original question, yet I thought that it might shed some insight into your situation. Perhaps I will also upload your progressed natal charts and personal transits later ;)

Arian Maverick
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
Hi Francesca,
Have you asked yourself WHAT it was that brought back memories of a past lover? Why your relationship didn't flourish into something permanent in the first place?:confused:

Transiting Saturn conjoined your Cancer stellium before it reached the Saturn/Pluto conjunction. I'd suspect that it brought about a series of endings with, and retrospection towards 11th house relationships. You may feel lonely or alone. Now, out of the Cancer dependency sphere, in Leo you should be strong enough to burn the bridges of the past, accept that which is over and move on with your life as an independent human being. This might also incorporate substance to fulfil the message within your 4th SN/10th house NN.

Whenever I read about little devils of thought/feelings creeping up, taking over and disturbing one's peace, I look towards the position of the natal and transiting positions of Black Moon Lilith in a chart. In a negative sense it often refers to that which never existed, never happened, was never meant to be in reality, yet lives as a deep feeling within that takes on a life of its own as if things really were and did happen. As such it can be a real little inner demon! Your natal Black Moon Lilith is on 17 Capricorn in your 5th house; it opposes your 11th house stellium. Simply said, it could mean that you make a reality (extra endorsed by it being in Capricorn) of 5th house affairs (which includes love affairs) that never actually existed and took place in real life. It's rather like fantasy playing with Cancer's rich imagination. Neptune in Libra, modern ruler your 7th house, squares your Venus-Moon. You make an image of your lovers that they don't meet with in real life, and you end up going through the real disillusions of love, presented by Moon-Venus-Neptune in your chart. Transiting Saturn may have brought home the results of such feelings during its transit of Cancer.
Yet, Black Moon Lilith in Capricorn in feminine charts has repeatedly shown itself to be those who wears the pants and are perfectly capable of taking care of, and responsibility for themselves, if only they would recognise it. BML at its best emphatically seems to refer to that which one doesn't need in order to survive, rather than what one does! Another link to the nodal axis, perhaps?

With transiting Black Moon Lilith approaching 14 degrees Virgo in your 1st house, you have allowed the little devil in yourself out recently. Transiting BML sextiled your natal Venus on 11 degr. Cancer and squared your natal Mars on 11 degr. Gemini at the beginning of this month and was within orb until quite recently. It has activated your loving feelings and mental thought patterns with images towards a man ( or maybe several with Gemini) to take some kind of action. Gemini penning a letter would fit the bill of such action. How the recipient received this action is another matter; Mars in Gemini can act angrily. I doubt his wife will sit back happily and accept it. Even if he tries to keep it a secret from her, she will probably suspect something if she knows him well, so it doesn't take much to guess what can happen when transiting Saturn reaches HIS Saturn-Pluto that opposes his natal Moon. Your little devil in you may have opened a can of worms. Yet that same BML in Virgo is also the inner strength within you to see things as and for what they REALLY are and not as you imagined them, or would long for them to be.

This is all taking place before the transit of Saturn to the Saturn-Pluto conjunction in the 12th house. The 12th house is similar to a lost and found dept. You can find whatever you've lost if you seek hard enough to find it.;) If you are one who has always been governed (Leo) and controlled by others, or by a seemingly uncontrollable force stronger than yourself (Saturn-Pluto), time (Saturn) is approaching for you to take back SELF control of your life. Saturn rules your 5th house . Some part of you will demand that you let the controlling past 'die' (Pluto) and take responsibility for yourself and your actions (sextile Mars). This does appear to be very difficult for Sun-Moon stelliums in Cancer people, whose life revolves around emotional dependency and security of one kind or another. But, with Pluto, it also becomes a necessity in order to allow something totally new to begin.

F.
 

Francesca

Well-known member
Thanks

Thank you both for your responses. I will definitely ponder them.
Frisiangel, I clearly have many dependancy issues, you are spot on there! However, they have expressed in my life as counter dependancy. I have always preferred living alone except for a short period. When I became pregnant in the early seventies, I simply moved without even telling the father. I taught myself natural childbirth techniques for the delivery, etc.etc.I have avoided trusting other people or allowing emotional intimacy all my life. Even sexual intimacy, which used to be fine with me, I have avoided now for 30 years. Almost as soon as I wrote the letter, there was a huge diminution of compulsive overeating for the first time in my adult life.
What has happened now, for the first time in my life, is that I want to change my emotional isolation, and I am apparently focussing on this old relationship. I now feel like I crave emotional closeness, want to trust this man and acknowledge my love for him. Does this still make sense to you re: Lilith?

Also, I have no fears about his wife getting upset. From their charts, they are a very compatible couple of many years standing. In the letter, I made it clear that I hoped he had found all the love and security he needed in his marriage.Too, when I rejected him, this man went sorta nuts and did everything he could to injure me, like trying to get me thrown out of my apartment, and actually getting me fired, etc.

Also, does Lilith have anything to do with childhood abuse by a mother? Mine was physically and emotionally abusive and very rejecting. In fact, I felt most of my life that she basically wanted me to die.

I'm going to look at the Davidson chart with great interest, as I am totally unfamiliar with it. Thank you both again.
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
Francesca said:
What has happened now, for the first time in my life, is that I want to change my emotional isolation, and I am apparently focussing on this old relationship. I now feel like I crave emotional closeness, want to trust this man and acknowledge my love for him. Does this still make sense to you re: Lilith?

Transiting Saturn through Cancer could well account for the feelings of emotional isolation; Lilith would crave for that which is not physically evident.

Also, does Lilith have anything to do with childhood abuse by a mother? Mine was physically and emotionally abusive and very rejecting. In fact, I felt most of my life that she basically wanted me to die.

I kept to your enquiry in my reply, but more was going on in my head:).
I have a number of charts in which Lilith in Capricorn has coincided with the lack of, or 'non-existent' father figure, a strong sense of discipline and responsibility OR a total lack of it, whilst harsh Moon-Lilith aspects have shown a lack of maternal bonding, feelings of rejection, and an 'I don't care' or 'I don't need anyone' attitude. I also have several charts in which a 5th house Black Moon Lilith coincided with single-mother child-raising. By coincidence the father, and thus the child, were not white-skinned.

Oppressed FEELINGS regarding whether abuse is emotional or physical could be created by Black Moon Lilith, but actual physical abuse would be found in a planetary combination. IMHO.

F.
 

sethi

Well-known member
Francesca said:
I am having a transit by saturn of my 12th house passing over my natal saturn/pluto conjunction. An old lover of mine is undergoing the same transit in another month or so. Saturn will also be opposing his moon at the same time. Ouch!

After many years of not thinking about him much, I am currently obsessed!
After much self-examination, I have concluded that I was scared of emotional intimacy and rejected him out of fear. He was probably my "soulmate".

My question is: How much of this turmoil is necessary growth, and what is self destructive behavior? He has been in a stable marriage for many years.
I wrote him a letter (NOT a mushy loveletter) explaining the turmoil and the insights I had had, indicating he didn't have to respond. Now, of course,I am in an agony of wanting him to respond.

Would anyone care to give it a shot? Here is the data:
Me 7/17/47 9:21 AM Niagara Falls NY
Him 8/29/47 time unk. Niagara Falls NY

Hello Francesca how are you

you may not know me, but i have just read your above detail and i was checking your chart.

strange thing is that you have the number 17 or 8 .

mostly these people pass a bad life until about 33-34 and then they come into their own.


I will also check up on your chart in detail but after i receive some reply from you

hoping to hear from you soon

best regards

sethi
________
Katana Ay50
 
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greenastrologer

Well-known member
I was reading this with much interest, especially since the description of Francesca's BML sounds just like me! but then noticed the date and thought oh well I could scarcely reply to something from 2006 - but, much to my surprise (and delight!) another poster just posted today as well. Perhaps we are opening a can of worms ourselves ;)
I wonder, Francesca, are you still out there? Are you comfortable sharing with us what happened?
Also, I'm going to do some digging and see what I can learn - is Lilith the moon with the feminine thingy at the bottom of it? If so, mine is in Leo in the 12th - so I wonder why that description resonates so well.
 

sethi

Well-known member
hello

i am not sure what lillith is .

but i am sure that if we stick to the main planets, nearly all that we may need to know about some person can be had from them

regards
________
P50
 
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