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08-01-2009, 10:27 PM
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Destiny
What determines one's ultimate "destiny" in a natal chart? By destiny, I mean one's experience in this particular lifetime on earth, specifically whether or not they will accomplish their chosen goals.
Do we look at the Moon and see whether it's healthy or afflicted? Or the Sun? The most highly placed planet on their chart?
The biggest problem I have with most chart interpretations is that it says a bunch of things, but it doesn' give a black and white answer whether one will have a successful lifetime or not (Success defined as accomplishing one's chosen goals - whatever they may be. For example, a business is successful if sold at a profit, not successful if bankrupt - I am looking for this kind of clear interpretation).
I know many astrologer's don't believe in destiny, but I also know some who do (especially people who study predictive or electional astrology - but they won't tell me so I'll have to interpret it on my own). If you do believe in the ability to see "destiny" just by looking at one's natal chart, please post, or PM me if you're more comfortable that way.
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08-01-2009, 10:41 PM
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Re: Destiny
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuledbySaturn
The biggest problem I have with most chart interpretations is that it says a bunch of things, but it doesn' give a black and white answer whether one will have a successful lifetime or not (Success defined as accomplishing one's chosen goals - whatever they may be. For example, a business is successful if sold at a profit, not successful if bankrupt - I am looking for this kind of clear interpretation).
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You have FREE WILL. I cannot look at your chart and tell if you are going to make an attempt to fulfill your destiny or not. No one can but you, yourself.  
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08-01-2009, 10:50 PM
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Re: Destiny
Kattydid, that's what most astrologers would say, and I respect your opinion. To be honest I am just really questioning if our free will can override our destiny.
Think about this: if free will can override the planets, why do astrologers always tell people to avoid void of course moon if they want to do someting important? Don't they believe that one's free will can override that? No, but instead they say "don't do it at that time because it won't work out" sort of thing - which in my opinion, is a way of saying that there are certain things we humans have no power over.
Last edited by RuledbySaturn; 08-01-2009 at 10:51 PM.
Reason: typo
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08-01-2009, 10:57 PM
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Re: Destiny
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuledbySaturn
Kattydid, that's what most astrologers would say, and I respect your opinion. To be honest I am just really questioning if our free will can override our destiny.
Think about this: if free will can override the planets, why do astrologers always tell people to avoid void of course moon if they want to do someting important? Don't they believe that one's free will can override that? No, but instead they say "don't do it at that time because it won't work out" sort of thing - which in my opinion, is a way of saying that there are certain things we humans have no power over.
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Because doing something on VOC moon makes it more difficult, but it is still possible.
An astrologer can look at a chart and say if a native is more or less likely to easily achieve
success or fulfill one's destiny. But no one can say with complete certainty because the soul of the person has free will and has the ability to fulfill one's destiny---no doubt. Nobody would incarnate into a chart that was 100% destined for failure.
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08-02-2009, 12:13 AM
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Re: Destiny
Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid
Nobody would incarnate into a chart that was 100% destined for failure.
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I guess there's hope for me then...
Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid
An astrologer can look at a chart and say if a native is more or less likely to easily achieve success or fulfill one's destiny.
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Can you tell me where in the chart to look for to see whether one is more or less likely to easily achieve life goals?
Is it the Midheaven and whether or not it's afflicted? Or the Sun or Moon? Or the 11th house? Thanks.
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08-02-2009, 12:37 AM
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Re: Destiny
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuledbySaturn
I guess there's hope for me then...
Can you tell me where in the chart to look for to see whether one is more or less likely to easily achieve life goals?
Is it the Midheaven and whether or not it's afflicted? Or the Sun or Moon? Or the 11th house? Thanks.
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It is kind of ALL of it, in totality. Some people might have horrible afflictions to the MC, but great aspects to the 11th and 5th, and find their way in life through creative inspiration. Others may have great aspects to their 7th and 4th, and make partners and parents, and fulfill their destiny in that way.
Maybe one person would have very difficult physical aspects, and live bedridden, or nearly comatose, or be extremely disabled mentally, BUT THEY COULD STILL SUCCEED IN FULFILLING THEIR DESTINY IF THAT IS WHAT THEIR SOUL NEEDED OR DESIRED THIS TIME AROUND. 
NOBODY but you can really decide if you are fulfilling your destiny imo. All you really need to do is make a sincere attempt to overcome your most flagrant weaknesses, and
to lIVE your life each day, the best way you know how. You can even mess it up, ALOT, and still succeed, at the end of the day. 
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08-02-2009, 03:54 AM
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Re: Destiny
Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid
BUT THEY COULD STILL SUCCEED IN FULFILLING THEIR DESTINY IF THAT IS WHAT THEIR SOUL NEEDED OR DESIRED THIS TIME AROUND.
NOBODY but you can really decide if you are fulfilling your destiny imo. All you really need to do is make a sincere attempt to overcome your most flagrant weaknesses, and
to lIVE your life each day, the best way you know how. You can even mess it up, ALOT, and still succeed, at the end of the day. |
My thoughts exactly.
How are we to know what our destiny is from here on the ground? 
Perhaps one's chosen destiny for this lifetime is to develop compassion........... or to develop humility......... or strength and will against extreme opposition.......... or to hang in here, despite overwhelming odds...... or to learn to love oneself. Honestly, unless you are in clear and open regular communication with your Higher Self, you will have little clear idea - perhaps until you are approaching your death - of what your life purpose (destiny?) has been. However, within that life path are the little games - the relationships, the jobs, the struggles, failures and `successes' - which provide opportunities for soul growth, which is the reason I believe we are here in the first place. After all, any kind of soul growth is extremely challenging on this physical plane.
As to whether a business venture will be successful - define success. Perhaps the idea is to have a go, and that is the level of success required by the Higher Self. On the other hand, to have a go and then fail may actually be the requirement, because a person's true strength and higher nature is frequently forged from such an experience.
And the idea of having a destiny/outcome is a bit too Western IMO. Life is actually a journey - during which we always have the gift of Free Will - and the final `destination' is the same for us all.
__________________
"There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in."
- from Anthem by Leonard Cohen
My Natal chart
Last edited by R4VEN; 08-02-2009 at 04:54 AM.
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08-02-2009, 11:01 PM
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Re: Destiny
If you desire to know if your plans for your life will succeed, look at the eleventh house which rules hopes and wishes as this would be stated in ancient astrology. Here you can see if you will attain your goals and how difficult it will be.
If the ruler of the eleventh is strong in essential and accidental dignity and unafflicted by the malefics your plans will succeed with little difficulty. The classical astrologers also used the triplicity rulers. If the triplicity ruler of the sign which rules the eleventh house also has essential dignity then so much the better.
When the rulers of the eleventh are peregrine(have no essential dignity) you may succeed but at things you never planned on. However, if the rulers are in detrement or fall or Saturn is beaming its malefic rays at them then success may prove ellusive. Most eleventh houses will have neither extreme, but if the house is afflicted, then astrological remedies should be sought.
The dignities of the planets can be found in various astrology books or by doing a search on internet. Remember that in classical astrology always simplify matters by finding the house that rules the question. Do not look all over the chart or multiply factors.
__________________
If the Mars life experiments were positive, would this not mean some of the stars were looking back? (John Brandenburg, Ph.D)
One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything. (William of Ockham)
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08-03-2009, 04:28 AM
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Re: Destiny
Thanks everyone.
Culpeper - I've never received such a clear-cut answer from any astrologers in my life. Is the technique you use simply called "traditional astrology?" because I really want to find a professional astrologer who can do this kind of analysis for me - this time I want to ask what technique they use before I hire them.
Or if other people know this type of technique, feel free to answer,too or PM me. Thanks.
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08-03-2009, 06:45 AM
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Re: Destiny
The MC [in a somewhat less traditional astrology] shows your vocation, in the sense of a calling, even of your destiny.
But I do think you have to read a whole chart to get the picture. The NN is where your growth lies. The sun is your sense of your identity, but the ASC is your embodiment and personality. Some charts have distinctive patterns (like a "kite" or a "yod") that point to particular energies that the individual needs to express. People with a lot of earth element need to experience life in material, practical ways; whereas "air" people need to enjoy the world of ideas.
And some people's identities don't relate to their careers in a job sense. Maybe their "vocation" is to be a super friend, a great dad, or a wonderful homemaker.
I would definitely look to the sign on the cusp of the MC and its planetary ruler by house and aspects. If the ruler of your MC is in the 6th, for example, you destiny could lie in serving others.
Spme astrologers look at pre-natal solar and lunar eclipses [see Karen McCoy and Jan Spiller on this.] The solar eclipse shows what you are on the planet to teach; and the lunar eclipse, what you are here to learn.
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08-03-2009, 10:07 AM
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Re: Destiny
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuledbySaturn
Thanks everyone.
Culpeper - I've never received such a clear-cut answer from any astrologers in my life. Is the technique you use simply called "traditional astrology?" because I really want to find a professional astrologer who can do this kind of analysis for me - this time I want to ask what technique they use before I hire them.
Or if other people know this type of technique, feel free to answer,too or PM me. Thanks.
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There are all types of Astrologers use this forum but mainly fall into Traditional & Western Astrology, the differences are explained here. Traditional astrologers mainly answer Horary questions but lots others also and different rules apply than from natal. They don’t use or go past Saturn, so Uranus, Neptune and Pluto…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_astrology
http://www.astrolozy.com/article19.asp
Traditional astrologers mainly answer Horary questions but lots others also and different rules apply than from natal.
Anyone can ask a horary question. You do not need a birth time to use this method of astrological enquiry. What you do need is the exact time the question was clearly worded in your mind. An experienced horarist can, using the time you have asked the question and the place from which it was asked, explore a particular matter in great detail.
Horary astrology can be used to enquire about health, marriage, love affairs, work matters, travel, relocation and many other matters that affect our daily lives. It can be used to find lost things, people, pets, and many other subjects. Try not to attempt horary without first acquiring a sound knowledge of Natal chart basics though.
Horary astrology learning links
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12782
http://www.antiquus-astrology.com/Chap2-5.html
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/traditionalastrology.html
http://mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/lesson1/lesson1.html
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08-03-2009, 07:03 PM
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Re: Destiny
Ruled by Saturn, I think what Astrologer50 is trying to explain is that you could ask a horary question, which would use a somewhat different system of astrology from basic natal chart interpretation.
Of course, "traditional" astrologers do far more than horary--and always have! Their techniques are a bit different from "modern" astrologers. As you learn more astrology and explore its different types and schools of thought, you can decide which ones you prefer.
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08-03-2009, 07:15 PM
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Re: Destiny
Thank you waybread and astrologer50. I think I'll be looking for an astrologer for a "natal chart interpretation using traditional astrology techniques." Basically I want Culpeper type of black-and-white, clear-cut interpretation because I have no fear whether it's good news or bad news - I just want the truth ("truth" based on classical interpretation).
BTW - Can one openly ask for recommendations for a professional astrologer on this site? Because I don't know who would be a good choice.
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08-03-2009, 08:49 PM
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Re: Destiny
Try our "recommendations" board: you could ask there.
Also, if you come across traditional astrologers on this site whose work you admire, the professionals generally provide a link to their own websites.
If you believe a traditional astrologer here is an amateur (albeit a very talented one!) you might also PM him/her asking if s/he would be willing to give you a volunteer chart reading. Some will and some won't.
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08-03-2009, 08:51 PM
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astrologer recommendations, to Saturn
Saturn,
You asked:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuledbySaturn
Can one openly ask for recommendations for a professional astrologer on this site? Because I don't know who would be a good choice.
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You can ask for Recommendations in this forum:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...=24&order=desc
Linking,
Tim
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08-03-2009, 09:36 PM
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Re: Destiny
Thank you, I will check out the recommendations section.
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08-04-2009, 03:45 AM
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Re: Destiny
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread
Spme astrologers look at pre-natal solar and lunar eclipses [see Karen McCoy and Jan Spiller on this.] The solar eclipse shows what you are on the planet to teach; and the lunar eclipse, what you are here to learn.
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err - waybread - wouldn't those pre-birth eclipses then simply describe the Moon's north and south nodes??? Unless the nodes have changed signs since the last eclipses prior to birth, the lunar eclispe would be in the sign of the MSN, and the solar eclipse in the sign of the MNN.
Am I over-simplifying this?
__________________
"There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in."
- from Anthem by Leonard Cohen
My Natal chart
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08-04-2009, 08:07 AM
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Re: Destiny A Question
Lots of great information here, what a chance to learn.
I was wondering,
The ruler of my POF is Venus in Scorpio in determent in 12th house.
The 12th house is a house very confusing for me, but it sounds bad.
I suppose this is bad for my Venus to be in determent and also 12th?
I work in a poultry plant and am over 50 but still trying to find a better career. Perhaps it is too late. I have published some short stories that has given me hope I might could be a writer.
Also Uranus, which I guess is the planet that inspires, is in determent in Leo.
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08-04-2009, 09:13 AM
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Re: Destiny A Question
Cindystubbs,
I think it is actually the power of your idealistic venus that is giving you the belief that you can attain those creative dreams. I think your Venus is pretty nice . It took you a long way in your life, and protected you, by being street wise and crafty. It is conjunct your North Node, and they both join in on the fire grand trine with saturn/uranus/mars in angular houses.
You have quite an amazing chart, with your grand trine, built on a boomerang kite, and a powerful grand square surrounding the whole thing. Oh Goodness. You probably have a lot to write about, and you are a true survivor, to be going after your dream so sincerely.
I believe you DO have the chart of a late bloomer, and you have a lot to say that deserves to be said. Your mercury, conjunct vesta, sitting in the 2nd, challenged by mars and the moon, describes a challenging life. The Mars square Moon says you watched the 'battle of the sexes'
from a vulnerable place, and had to find your own sense of self, and own sense of identity, to avoid taking sides. At 14, you had to grow up and make your own way perhaps, and now young girls could identify with the instructive stories you could tell.
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08-05-2009, 05:46 AM
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Re: Destiny
Quote:
Originally Posted by R4VEN
err - waybread - wouldn't those pre-birth eclipses then simply describe the Moon's north and south nodes??? Unless the nodes have changed signs since the last eclipses prior to birth, the lunar eclispe would be in the sign of the MSN, and the solar eclipse in the sign of the MNN.
Am I over-simplifying this?
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McCoy and Spiller have a printed emphemeris of these eclipses in their book, Spiritual Astrology, as does Celeste Teal in her book, Eclipses. I don't know if there is an on-line ephemeris for them.
I think that they would be close to the lunar nodes, but oftentimes in different signs and houses, to the point of not being in orb with the nodes in some cases. My pre-natal lunar eclipse is pretty close to my NN in the same sign and house; but my pre-natal solar eclipse is in a different sign and house than my SN.
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08-05-2009, 01:33 PM
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Re: Destiny
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuledbySaturn
What determines one's ultimate "destiny" in a natal chart? By destiny, I mean one's experience in this particular lifetime on earth, specifically whether or not they will accomplish their chosen goals.
Do we look at the Moon and see whether it's healthy or afflicted? Or the Sun? The most highly placed planet on their chart?
The biggest problem I have with most chart interpretations is that it says a bunch of things, but it doesn' give a black and white answer whether one will have a successful lifetime or not (Success defined as accomplishing one's chosen goals - whatever they may be. For example, a business is successful if sold at a profit, not successful if bankrupt - I am looking for this kind of clear interpretation).
I know many astrologer's don't believe in destiny, but I also know some who do (especially people who study predictive or electional astrology - but they won't tell me so I'll have to interpret it on my own). If you do believe in the ability to see "destiny" just by looking at one's natal chart, please post, or PM me if you're more comfortable that way.
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Interpret the chart with the Part of Fortune as the Ascendant using whole sign houses the traditional rulers
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08-05-2009, 06:58 PM
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Re: Destiny
Wow, just tried it, and that looks like a horrible chart with malefics in the 12th house...
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08-06-2009, 02:11 PM
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Re: Destiny
The angles from the part of fortune (1st, 4th, 7th and 10th) shows where the "action" will be in your life according to planets in these houses and their rulers and aspects - I have found this method to be highly accurate in showing the major issues the person deals with in the course of his/her life.
Take Barack Obama as an example: His part of Fortune is in Aries and what does he have in the 10th house? Saturn in Capricorn trine the ruler Mars in the 6th. Obviously, he is much concerned with career matters and worldly success with a strong desire to be liked and approved of (7th ruler Venus in 4th ruled by the Moon)
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