Technical question, Who is stronger?

[Niplan]

ok, we have,

Saturn at 25'35, sun at 25'41, mars at 26'04..

Now, Besigement would put the sun in a bad position..

However, Combustion, Puts Saturn and mars in a bad position..

But with cazimi since saturn is within 17minutes of the sun, thereby elivating it to a benific position..

Who is the stronger planet/luminary?

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Saturn's stronger. In domicile and Cazimi, even if he is out of sect.

[gaer]

I have the same question. I was curious. It appears that Chris Farley was born on the same day.

[al Nablusi]

The Sun is detrimented in Aquarius, so it is weakened.
Mars is peregrine, ditto. Mars cannot 'resist' combustion - the Sun overcomes it.
Saturn has dignity by domicile and triplicity, and is in cazimi.

To me, the strongest planet is Saturn. But the native will also be influenced by the Sun and Mars. In any case, I would consider the stellium difficult to handle.

May I ask what is the job of this person? I've noticed he/she has algol in the sixth-seventh, square the Saturn-Mars-Sun stellium. With fixed stars, normally I only consider conjunctions, but this aspect has caught my attention.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Saturn's not in Triplicity, it's a night chart.

[Frank]

Originally Posted by Joseph Ledzion

Usually Mars is out of bounds in the charts of murderers, for example.

Joseph

I just wanted to check on this. I used about birth data for about 500 criminals convicted of homocide, 500 homocide victims, and more than 2000 astrologers from AstroDatabank.

Mars Out of Bounds:

Criminal Homocide -15.5 %
Homocide Victims -15.9%
Astrologers - 17.9%

[Niplan]

this is the chart of a man who sits across from me at work.

very pessimistic, but we did have a constructive intellectual debate yesterday about philosophy and divinity.

"Saturn's not in Triplicity, it's a night chart."
Triplicity rulers still have dignity even if they are out of sect.

thanks joseph!

I forgot to mention the almuten scores on the chart don't include cazimi, or combustion.. i can't figure out how to add those as considerations.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

"Saturn's not in Triplicity, it's a night chart."
Triplicity rulers still have dignity even if they are out of sect.

False. That's why we have the distinction of "Triplicity ruler by day" and "Triplicity ruler by night". They pass it along when the sun changes hemispheres.

Also, how are you all defining almuten? As the most dignified planet? That's the Lord of Geniture, and yes it probably would end up being Saturn (I don't feel like doing the counting). The almuten of the chart would be Jupiter who has domicile, triplicity, and term of the ascending degree.

[al Nablusi]

Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi

Also, how are you all defining almuten? As the most dignified planet? That's the Lord of Geniture, and yes it probably would end up being Saturn (I don't feel like doing the counting). The almuten of the chart would be Jupiter who has domicile, triplicity, and term of the ascending degree.

I follow Bonatti's definition from Liber Astronomiae, whereby in natal charts the (compound) almuten is the planet with the most dignities in:

1. the four angles
2. rulers of the four angles
3. triplicity ruler of the four angles
4. Sun
5. Moon
6. Ruler of the Sun
7. Ruler of the Moon
8. POF
9. ruler of the prenatal syzygy

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Ah, that crazy Bonatti, I see now. That's just complicated. Heh.

[Frank]

Yeah, but what about the Hyleg (and whose formulation will one use for that)?

Not to mention the Oikodespotes and the Kurios?

(Half tongue-in-cheek here.)

But please, when making a statement about an astrological term or technique that has two or more possible expressions, please state the source you are using.

No can we move on to Noel Tyl's definition of "Peregrine" please?;-)

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

No can we move on to Noel Tyl's definition of "Peregrine" please?;-)

Beat me to it, that was going to be my next topic, hehe.

[Frank]

Originally Posted by Frank

I just wanted to check on this. I used about birth data for about 500 criminals convicted of homocide, 500 homocide victims, and more than 2000 astrologers from AstroDatabank.

Mars Out of Bounds:

Criminal Homocide -15.5 %
Homocide Victims -15.9%
Astrologers - 17.9%

OK, on the way home tonight I created a database of 10,000 charts spaced equally out over 200 years (1809-2009) and Mars looks to be Out of Bounds about 16.5 percent of the time.

So it seems that Homocide criminals and victims have slightly less than the norm of Mars OoB cases, while astrologers have slightly more.

None of the deviations are really statistically significant however - just about what is expected.

[Pallas-trine-Mars]

Mercury rules over 3 other planets (plus 2 more if you include Pluto and Uranus) and the midheaven, it's the triplicity lord and is in sect. Mars also rules 4 planets in the 2 signs it's said to rule, plus one or 2 planets in Pisces (depending on how significant you consider Chiron) and the Node in Cancer (but then there's the issue of does it rule the Node and Neptune since they're in the diurnal half amd the Node being in the sign of Mars' Fall..)

Saturn is said to be weakened by the Sun (sorry, I'm just skeptical that cazimi helps a planet or that combustion is really that bad, especially considering the fact that a combust planet is moving at its fastest) and vice versa with the Sun which is also considered in detriment and weak (but I wonder if Capricorn is harder for the Sun than Aquarius).

[Niplan]

Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi

False. That's why we have the distinction of "Triplicity ruler by day" and "Triplicity ruler by night". They pass it along when the sun changes hemispheres.

Just because a guy is early to a party he is invited to, doesn't mean they wont let him in.

Are you not allowed to enter your dwelling at night? Or can you only enter your dwelling during the day? Is their a mystical lock on your door that only opens under moon light?

If everything is mirrored above as below, then this must be true too. He just acts more negatively because hes throwing a temper tantrum that no one else is there yet that he can talk to.

and i read an article on skyscript that listed classical refrances and i can't find the article anymore, so it doesn't help, but i didn't just pull this out of my ***.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Just because a guy is early to a party he is invited to, doesn't mean they wont let him in.

Are you not allowed to enter your dwelling at night? Or can you only enter your dwelling during the day? Is their a mystical lock on your door that only opens under moon light?

Well, they aren't suddenly going to kick Saturn out of air signs when the sun goes down, but he no longer has triplicity dignity from being in those air signs at night.

It's just the way the rules work, and if they didn't get passed along, then why is there a distinction between "night" and "day" rulers? Because one rules during the day and the other rules during the night. The off-season ruler doesn't get dignity points when it's not his time.

A quote from the SkyScript site:

In this system each triplicity has two rulers which exchange priority according to whether the chart is diurnal or nocturnal, plus a third ruler which is common to both sects.

[waybread]

Really interesting research, Frank! I've dabbled with a little astro research myself. It is hard to find astrological astrological signatures for vocations or notable characteristics (like being a mass murderer) that occur more frequently than via random chance, or in the charts of a group that would not be expected to show said signature.

[Frank]

Originally Posted by waybread

Really interesting research, Frank! I've dabbled with a little astro research myself. It is hard to find astrological astrological signatures for vocations or notable characteristics (like being a mass murderer) that occur more frequently than via random chance, or in the charts of a group that would not be expected to show said signature.

Research is my passion these days. And there are definitely signatures that show statistical significance - especially when we look at a combination of factors.

I've got an article at www.frankstar.com on astrology and artists and I'm lecturing on the astrology of Mensa-level intelligence at ISAR in Chicago in a couple of weeks. And the project I'm working on now is still under wraps as I have helpers collating the data blindly - but it's going to involve thousands of charts of a very specific kind of event. Stay tuned!

[Frank]

Originally Posted by dhundhun

Cazimi is a planet within 17 minutes of arc of the Sun's ecliptic position. Latitude wise, saturn in this case is more than one degree away.

Sun's angular dia from earth varies between 31.6' – 32.7'. I think, technically, a planet is called Cazimi, when plant occults sun or sun occults planet (a margin of 17'). Saturn's angular dia varies from earth and it is between 15″ – 20″.

Going by this theory, Saturn is not cazimi. It is more than 1 degree away in latitude.

Taking max degrees: it is 16.3' 30" (Sun's radius) + 10" (Saturn's radius) + 17' (cazimi margin) = 33.3' 40" to be precise. Loosly speaking a planet is cazimi, when it in in half degree of Sun (longitude and latitude both are needed to calculate).

Cazimi is considered only in Longitude, not Declination.

From Lilly's "Christian Astrology"

"[CAZIMI, OR IN THE HEART OF THE SUN.] A Planet is in the heart of the Sun, or in Cazimi, when he is not removed from him 17 min. or is within 17 min. forward or backward, as Sun in 15.30 Taurus, Mercury 15.25. of Taurus: here Mercury is in Cazimi"

No mention of Declination. Do you have a source that states Cazimi must be in Declination also?

What you are speaking of is a "Transit of the Sun" (when Venus or Mercury are involved in front of the Sun) or an "Occultation" (if a planet is behind the Sun) - both very rare occurences - or a Solar Eclipse if the Moon is involved. Cazimi wouldn't have been noted as an Accidental Dignity if is were as rare as a "Transit of the Sun" or an Occultation - would it?

[Frank]

Yes, it's an arc. Minutes of Arc in Longitude. Even the examples of Mercury and Venus given in the article you link, the Cazimis are only in Longitude, not Declination.

I know, because I watch them all the time. They work great for fortifying planets in electional work when one can't avoid the debility of Combustion otherwise.

Since you stick to Cazimi using Declination in addition to Longitude, do you also take into account Declination when considering Combustion and Under the Beams?

[Frank]

Also, the designation "minutes of arc" is used merely to avoid confusion with "minutes of time." One doesn't get that confusion when speaking of degrees.

Perhaps that is what your misconception is founded upon?

[Frank]

Originally Posted by dhundhun

For conjuction strength, yes. Not for any other aspects.

So you use Declination in addition to Longitude when figuring Combustion? So how are you converting the numbers? What number are you using and how are you figuring the true body aspect?

[Frank]

Originally Posted by dhundhun

Please remove word misconception from you remarks. I appreciate.

Respectfully, I believe it to be a misconception on your part - it is not intended as an insult or a personal attack. I'll let the word stand as is because it's the word I meant.

If you are so adamant about your interpretation, please direct me toward a source that supports your assertion that Cazimi needs to consider Declination.

Thank you.

[katydid]

It is interesting to figure out which one is 'stronger' using the various techniques and methods described here, but in my humble opinion, it is not mandatory. This guy, has the Sun sandwiched in between 2 powerful forces, much like being in the vice of 2 opposing forces. It is important to take note of the fact that Saturn is stronger by dignity/almuten, but even then , mars and the sun are still making themselves known. This man probably has some strong Aquarian urges, which he would like to act upon, in writing or speaking or teaching, but he may feel blocked from doing so. But just because Saturn is stronger overall, it does not mean it will ALWAYS be a negative influence, but it may mean that he does not take his progressive reforms to the people until he is entirely certain they are correct and unassailable.
Also, the triple conjunction has only one major aspect, a sextile to the Sag ascendent. Thus the 2 fire planets may win out in the end with the urging of the ascendent to make his ideas and beliefs known.

[Niplan]

Originally Posted by katydid

It is interesting to figure out which one is 'stronger' using the various techniques and methods described here, but in my humble opinion, it is not mandatory. This guy, has the Sun sandwiched in between 2 powerful forces, much like being in the vice of 2 opposing forces. It is important to take note of the fact that Saturn is stronger by dignity/almuten, but even then , mars and the sun are still making themselves known. This man probably has some strong Aquarian urges, which he would like to act upon, in writing or speaking or teaching, but he may feel blocked from doing so. But just because Saturn is stronger overall, it does not mean it will ALWAYS be a negative influence, but it may mean that he does not take his progressive reforms to the people until he is entirely certain they are correct and unassailable.
Also, the triple conjunction has only one major aspect, a sextile to the Sag ascendent. Thus the 2 fire planets may win out in the end with the urging of the ascendent to make his ideas and beliefs known.

my interpriation almost word for word that i told him, Its correct. As well, He is currently in a position in his family where he does stand to inheret alot of money, and is battling currently with his north south node, emotions and security from being given free money wich hes highly uncomfortable with it being handed to him.

and of course i did point out that this was his Nn SN trap.

I've never seen someone so greatful.