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Old 06-10-2009, 03:59 PM
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Death of a Sibling

Hi all,

I've been having a look at a chart and have been reading interpretations for back up and found a few interpretations with fatalistic suggestions. The chart will be attached below, the placing is ruler of the 8th house in the 3rd house. Though looking at the aspects connected to it, Mercury, most are supporting. Does this help? Also, what have you noticed with this placing? Is such a placing too basic an interpretation to be concerned? A planet in a house cannot immediately be taken to be seen as an indication of death, and also with a variety of sextiles and trines, fear aside then?


Last edited by byjove; 01-21-2012 at 02:03 AM.
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Old 06-10-2009, 06:42 PM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

this subject has been covered quite extensively, just use the search feature, like you would google..... there are plenty of threads on AW
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Old 06-11-2009, 12:03 PM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

I have one chart of a person who's sibling died - only significator I found is Mars retro in the 3rd house, and if equal house system is used that Mars falls exactly on 3rd house cusp

Mars is inconjunct Sun and sextile Uranus(8th house ruler) - the death of the sibling was sudden and only after her sibling died the owner of the chart began living her life , so to say
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Old 06-12-2009, 04:08 PM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

I have had a sibling die, and I have no clear indicators of this - maybe 8th house ruler conj Pluto in the 7th???? Bit of a long shot. Plus, I have another 3 siblings who themselves have no clear indicators on their charts.

The sibling of mine whose life was most directly affected by the death of the sibling himself has a packed 8th house, including his sun and moon. This sibling's career path was determined directly by the death of the older one. He also has Uranus in 3rd (he's also quite severely dyslexic) ruling his 10th house. As I see his Uranus in 3rd, not only does it describe his learning difficulties, but in relation to his siblings, he's a lot younger than the rest of us, so grew up as though he were an only child.

All a trifle circumstantial.
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:55 PM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

byjove, just a note of caution that looking for death signatures is a highly controversial subject in modern astrology, and rightly so.

You are aware that the 8th house has multiple meanings besides death, just as the 3rd house has meanings besides siblings. This might mean resources shared with a neighbour, to give but one alternate example.

R4ven's post is indicative of what I see as one of the problems. Death of a sibling as potentially indicated in her chart does not appear in her other siblings' charts.

What I personally might detect in this chart is a possible focus on thinking about (3rd house) death for this person. (Your chart?) Scorpio rising. The very strong Cancer moon in the 8th involved in a T-square with grim reaper Saturn and philosophical Jupiter and Mars, plus those big squares from Neptune to the sun/Venus/Mars. Chart ruler Pluto trines 8th house ruler Mercury.

This might be a good chart for a hospice nurse, if this person's sensitive watery nature could take the stress.

Last edited by waybread; 06-12-2009 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 06-15-2009, 02:26 PM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

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Originally Posted by astrologer50 View Post
this subject has been covered quite extensively, just use the search feature, like you would google..... there are plenty of threads on AW
Hi A50, I suspect I'm not using the search feature on here properly, it never seems to provide the info. I'm looking for so I get frustrated.
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Old 06-15-2009, 02:30 PM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

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Originally Posted by Joseph Ledzion View Post
Using Whole Sign Houses, which is probably the best thing to do for an accurate delineation of a Natal Chart, the Moon is placed in the 9th House.

http://www.librarising.com/astrology...ignhouses.html

The Ruler of the 8th house is placed on the IC. That's an indication of death, although Mercury is extremely well dignified.

The Ruler of the 3rd house, the house of Siblings, is Saturn, who is placed in the 12th house. That's the problem. Except again, Saturn is extremely well dignified -- in Exaltation, in Joy and Conjunct the Great Benefic, Jupiter.

However, the only time you do not want a planet dignified, according to Robert Hand, is when the planet is a Malefic ruling the 12th house -- which is exactly what we have here.

Unfortunately at this time, I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Is this your chart? Did you lose a sibling?

If so, it is shown by the ruler of the 3rd, Saturn, being exalted in the 12th house. And the general theme of death in the natives mind is always in place because the ruler of the 8th is exalted on the IC.

Joseph
Wow am I glad to find another Whole Sign-user on here. I became enamoured by that system recently, but I tread on the Placidus system just lightly. As many people on here have noticed, I have used another chart for myself and for quite some time, so no, this is not my chart. This is the chart of my older sister, and I discovered the above, and just wanted guidance. Jumping to conclusions is inexperienced and one aspect alone is not enough, so I'm just looking for a more experienced eye to give an opinion.
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Old 06-15-2009, 02:39 PM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

Waybread, of course death signatures are controversial, and I do no look for them, and by virtue of my seeking a more experienced hand on here, I'm not jumping to any conclusions. I'll try an attach my natal chart below, my and my sister's chart are the only ones in the family with hospital-given birth times.

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Old 06-16-2009, 04:47 AM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

I do think astrologers each find a house system that suits them the best. They may change it during their lifetime, but loyalties on house systems run pretty strong!

An Australian astrologer, Alice Portman, believes that "natives'" charts synchronize better or worse with different house systems, and that the best fit can be determined by timing Uranus transits as it moves from one house to another.

I don't predict people's deaths, although with the ruler of your 8th conjunct Saturn in the 6th, I might imagine that you would die of old age!
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:37 PM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post

I don't predict people's deaths, although with the ruler of your 8th conjunct Saturn in the 6th, I might imagine that you would die of old age!
Thanks for that, that's in my sister's chart, I'll fill her in on this then!
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Old 06-17-2009, 12:45 PM
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Re: Death of a Sibling



Here is my chart - if it is of any help.
I lost my brother. He was very young - only 28 and we were very close.
I think that this grand trine between Saturn - Pluto - N. Node in 12th is pointing to that. But, I could be wrong - I am new in astrology. Also, he was 7 years older.
3rd and 8th are ruled by Venus and 12th is ruled by Saturn.

It was the hardest period of my life.
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:13 PM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

Joseph, I respect your tremendous knowledge and your passion for your chosen house system. So long as members respect one another's differences of opinion, hopefully arguing won't break out on this forum over house divisions, as it has in the past! It is hard to believe what a hot-button topic it is.

natasa, I am sorry about your loss of your brother. What I would suggest is that a chart can show you the kinds of difficulties an individual faced around the time of death, but not why one person with particular chart placements died and another person recovered. One of the problems is that one person's supposed "death signature" in his chart might be something that other people are born with, or other people encounter later in life, yet they don't die of it. So I think your brother's chart can help you to learn more about what he was like as a person, and what were the issues that he faced in a way that expresses your love for him as his sister.

I believe in a kind of spiritual astrology. To me, a death moment is a birth into a new dimension, which is why charts for death moments are as diverse as charts for birth moments.

Of course, I accept that many people wouldn't agree with me!
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:20 PM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

"I believe in a kind of spiritual astrology. To me, a death moment is a birth into a new dimension, which is why charts for death moments are as diverse as charts for birth moments. "
By WayBread


I LOVE that. That is very profound. So perhaps each 'rebirth' or death moment MIGHT hold clues to their destination as well?
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:01 PM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

Thanks, Katydid! And wow! I never thought of that. Good question!

You know, I would be tempted to think so. I am not much into past lives astrology, even though I have read both astrological and non-astrological books about past lives. But if the past lives phenomenon is real and if past lives astrology works, (two big "ifs" for me) then I see no reason why they shouldn't work into the future, as well.

A bit of a quandary:

Medical astrology requires just a huge background to do it well, in terms of both the astrological and the health sciences knowledge that is required to do it well. I confess that I don't have this background. However, I did look at a few charts of seriously ill people posted on another astrology forum, armed with a few books on medical astrology; and I did see where in the natal chart and transits the illness described by the poster was showing up with the patient.

Well, if a serious illness does end up in a horoscope, and if the illness is recorded either as the cause of death or a contributory condition, such that it is present at the moment of death, then one wonders if this experience is any part of the future of a now disincarnate soul, or whether it has some other meaning.

In a slightly different vein, I note that some fatal illnesses are hereditary, and that astrologer Erin Sullivan (and perhaps others) traced repeat patterns in natal charts of multiple generations of the same family. She (and I believe Liz Greene) wrote that there may be some collective karma amongst family members that seemingly works out over multiple generations.

How would you see this question?
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:36 PM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

A bit of a quandary:

Medical astrology requires just a huge background to do it well, in terms of both the astrological and the health sciences knowledge that is required to do it well. I confess that I don't have this background. However, I did look at a few charts of seriously ill people posted on another astrology forum, armed with a few books on medical astrology; and I did see where in the natal chart and transits the illness described by the poster was showing up with the patient.

Well, if a serious illness does end up in a horoscope, and if the illness is recorded either as the cause of death or a contributory condition, such that it is present at the moment of death, then one wonders if this experience is any part of the future of a now disincarnate soul, or whether it has some other meaning.

In a slightly different vein, I note that some fatal illnesses are hereditary, and that astrologer Erin Sullivan (and perhaps others) traced repeat patterns in natal charts of multiple generations of the same family. She (and I believe Liz Greene) wrote that there may be some collective karma amongst family members that seemingly works out over multiple generations.

How would you see this question?
I am familiar with the concept of genetic conditions and familial karma. I find it fascinating. It makes a lot of sense to me overall. I really believe there is a collective unconscious, Pluto perhaps, that has collective memories and karmic implications. And I think families have past lives in common with each other for the most part. That would make DNA make sense imo.
But I also think people have the ability to make choices that either save them from certain conditions, or assure their demise from said genetic factors. My grandfather died of lung cancer, and being a triple Gemini, he smoked till the very end. I remember him looking like a skeleton, very near death, but still sucking in the smoke.
Neither my brothers or myself EVER smoked cigs after watching him die before our eyes. I have a prominent, yet afflicted Mercury/Jupiter,so I still have some problems with bronchitis and asthma , but if I had smoked 2 packs a day like he did, I would be gone already. I made some choices that alleviated or mitigated some of the malefic factors. Thus when my 4th house Pluto , the apex of my Mercury/Jupiter opposition, ruler of the 8th, was squared by Pluto in Scorpio, it was not my funeral, but the birth of my children that was highlighted.
I think we all have 'potential' death moments at different times in our lives. We all have brushes with death, and sometimes it is just inches or moments that make the difference one way or the other. I really believe that our unconscious helps us stay or go at these chosen moments. That, and good or bad luck in the moment.
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Old 06-27-2009, 05:50 AM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

Katydid, I agree. Well spoken!
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Old 06-27-2009, 05:55 AM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I believe in a kind of spiritual astrology. To me, a death moment is a birth into a new dimension, which is why charts for death moments are as diverse as charts for birth moments.

Of course, I accept that many people wouldn't agree with me!
Here's another one who likes what you wrote there, waybread. It pretty much sums up why astrology `works' for me. Death and birth are pretty much the same thing. Even in tarot, the Death card is positive in that it essentially describes an opportunity for new beginnings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid
I think we all have 'potential' death moments at different times in our lives. We all have brushes with death, and sometimes it is just inches or moments that make the difference one way or the other. I really believe that our unconscious helps us stay or go at these chosen moments. That, and good or bad luck in the moment.
I can certainly vouch for that, too katydid.
I had a major car accident in 1980. I was driving late at night, with both my (then) small children asleep in the back seat, through a remote area, when I swerved to miss a kangaroo on the road in front of me - true story!! The car rolled twice, and while it was rolling - which seemed to take forever - I can remember thinking: "I do want to live. I do. I've actually changed my mind. Is that OK?" At the time, I was experiencing a Chiron opposition, and tr Uranus was conj natal Chiron in Scorpio.
The car fortuitously landed on its wheels, I was able to drive it away (although perhaps I should not have, but what was one to do?) and eventually found a light on at a house, where the people took me in, allowed me to use their phone, and the wife even tended to my smallest child's facial cuts.
Leading up to that event I had been quite ambivalent about being alive. I believe that I was given a moment of `choice', and I consciously made that choice. Had my children not been with me things may have been different.
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Old 06-27-2009, 05:59 AM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

Very moving, R4ven, thanks for sharing!
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Old 06-27-2009, 06:50 AM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

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Originally Posted by R4VEN View Post
I can certainly vouch for that, too katydid.
I had a major car accident in 1980. I was driving late at night, with both my (then) small children asleep in the back seat, through a remote area, when I swerved to miss a kangaroo on the road in front of me - true story!! The car rolled twice, and while it was rolling - which seemed to take forever - I can remember thinking: "I do want to live. I do. I've actually changed my mind. Is that OK?" At the time, I was experiencing a Chiron opposition, and tr Uranus was conj natal Chiron in Scorpio.
The car fortuitously landed on its wheels, I was able to drive it away (although perhaps I should not have, but what was one to do?) and eventually found a light on at a house, where the people took me in, allowed me to use their phone, and the wife even tended to my smallest child's facial cuts.
Leading up to that event I had been quite ambivalent about being alive. I believe that I was given a moment of `choice', and I consciously made that choice. Had my children not been with me things may have been different.
Wow. I shudder to think about it.
It really hits me when you speak of that moment 'seeming to take forever.'
I have had 3 moments like that, all 3 very very close brushes with my demise. And with each , time seemed to almost stand still. It was almost like watching a video, but at super slow speed, and I felt removed from the situation, even though I was on the very edge of certain death. It was very surreal.
My most recent was also a car accident, and I was also having Uranus transit. Uranus was in Aquarius, in my 10th, conjunct my NN, and opposing
Pluto. It was actually forming an exact grand square with Mercury/Jupiter and Pluto.
It was pouring down rain, and it came on all of a sudden, while I was on the busy 101 Fwy in Ventura, California. I was driving, and my daughter , who was then about 10, was sitting in the back. We came around a corner, heading down a hill, and I was surrounded by a lot of fast moving traffic
on all sides. I wanted to slow down, but everyone else was still speeding along. As I began going down the hill, I lightly tapped the brakes in an effort to slow the car. BAD MOVE.
In an instant, I was fish tailing, at about 55 mph, and had NO control of the
car at all. Time stood still. The car was almost driving itself as there was no traction and no control from the steering wheel. Like a slow video action movie, we SLID SIDEWAYS, through 4 lanes of rush hour traffic, and the car
did a 180, eventually facing oncoming traffic, but stopped , against the furthest guardrail. Noone was hurt, not even the car. After we stopped crying and shaking, we started up the car and were on our way.
While we were sliding sideways, out of control,through the speeding freeway traffic, seemingly in slow motion, I wondered if this was it, THE moment, but I turned to see my girl screaming like the boy in HOME ALONE, and I just KNEW we could not die, or even be mangled right then. I feel in my soul that I WILLED it to stop, and to be okay. I felt almost detached, but above it somehow. It was very Uranian in a way. And for days afterwards I thought about how it was just a matter of inches each way that kept us safe. There were cars all around us, yet we managed to cross 4 lanes of freeway traffic,
without being touched, or making anyone else lose control either.
I began making an effort to get the whole family to church on Sundays from then on. Well, for awhile anyway.

Last edited by katydid; 06-27-2009 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 06-27-2009, 08:07 AM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid View Post
In an instant, I was fish tailing, at about 55 mph, and had NO control of the
car at all. Time stood still. The car was almost driving itself as there was no traction and no control from the steering wheel. Like a slow video action movie, we SLID SIDEWAYS, through 4 lanes of rush hour traffic, and the car
did a 180, eventually facing oncoming traffic, but stopped , against the furthest guardrail
. Noone was hurt, not even the car. After we stopped crying and shaking, we started up the car and were on our way.
While we were sliding sideways, out of control,through the speeding freeway traffic, seemingly in slow motion, I wondered if this was it, THE moment, but I turned to see my girl screaming like the boy in HOME ALONE, and I just KNEW we could not die, or even be mangled right then. I feel in my soul that I WILLED it to stop, and to be okay. I felt almost detached, but above it somehow. It was very Uranian in a way. And for days afterwards I thought about how it was just a matter of inches each way that kept us safe. There were cars all around us, yet we managed to cross 4 lanes of freeway traffic,
without being touched, or making anyone else lose control either.
I began making an effort to get the whole family to church on Sundays from then on. Well, for awhile anyway.
katydid, that sounds uber-scary!!!!! It also sounds like one's worst nightmare.

I agree that it is very Uranian in nature - the suddenness, the choosing to brake, when that was possibly the worst thing you could have done, and then managing to slide across 4 lanes of traffic.
It's the stories of surviving things like this which interest me. This seems also quite Uranian.
For instance, in the aftermath of my car accident, I found a house with the outside light on, and pulled into the house, hoping they would be welcoming. It turned out that these people remembered me from when I was a teenager (I'd been on the way to my parents' farm, but was a good 30 miles away, and over the other side of a major river system when the crash occurred) and they remembered my parents from church or something, so were very welcoming, and even asked me to visit them again to tell them how my little boy fared, as he had to have stitches in a head wound.
As Humphrey Bogart once said, (and I paraphrase): Of all the houses along that very long road, they were the ones who left their light on, almost as though they were expecting me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It was well after 10pm by this time, and country folk are usually early to bed.
As a result of this whole experience, I'm also sure there are no such things as `accidents'.

I just checked my chart again for that night, and tr Pluto had begun to form a square with the Descendant/Asc axis, and had turned Rx 4 months earlier, but was still close enough to be within a square.
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Old 06-27-2009, 08:29 AM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

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katydid, that sounds uber-scary!!!!! It also sounds like one's worst nightmare.

I agree that it is very Uranian in nature - the suddenness, the choosing to brake, when that was possibly the worst thing you could have done, and then managing to slide across 4 lanes of traffic.
It's the stories of surviving things like this which interest me. This seems also quite Uranian.
For instance, in the aftermath of my car accident, I found a house with the outside light on, and pulled into the house, hoping they would be welcoming. It turned out that these people remembered me from when I was a teenager (I'd been on the way to my parents' farm, but was a good 30 miles away, and over the other side of a major river system when the crash occurred) and they remembered my parents from church or something, so were very welcoming, and even asked me to visit them again to tell them how my little boy fared, as he had to have stitches in a head wound.
As Humphrey Bogart once said, (and I paraphrase): Of all the houses along that very long road, they were the ones who left their light on, almost as though they were expecting me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It was well after 10pm by this time, and country folk are usually early to bed.
As a result of this whole experience, I'm also sure there are no such things as `accidents'.

I just checked my chart again for that night, and tr Pluto had begun to form a square with the Descendant/Asc axis, and had turned Rx 4 months earlier, but was still close enough to be within a square.
Yes, Uranus was forming a square with my asc/desc axis at the time as well. Yours was a Pluto experience, and you guys did a double roll over.
Yikes. That is Plutonian. I mean to do a few rolls like that and then recover like the phoenix, and drive yourself to safety.
And imagine if you had somehow come to the wrong house, a very unwelcoming home, that would have been horrid. So it is fitting that you found your parents church friends, like a big JUPITER welcoming you inside to bandage your wounds.

p.s.
And the weird thing about my tapping the brakes, just a split second before I did it, i heard my own voice in my head say NO, don't brake! I KNEW better.
But I was sailing down a hill and saw the water pooled up at the bottom, and panicked a bit. BUT I IGNORED MY OWN WARNING !
So the Uranus, which by transit, was forming a grand square to my Pluto apex, took over and literally scared the shiett out of us. But just as swiftly laid us back down safely, out of harms way.

Jupiter in Taurus in my 12th, conjunct my asc, is the ruler of my 8th. It is in mutual reception with Venus in Sag in the 7th. I seem to have nine lives.
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Old 06-27-2009, 08:51 AM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

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Yikes. That is Plutonian. I mean to do a few rolls like that and then recover like the phoenix, and drive yourself to safety.
When I told my friends about what happened and how I got out of it, they all said - every last one of them - "How did you manage to get in the car and drive away? I wouldn't have been able to do that." And I'd reply, "I never thought of doing otherwise. You would have done the same thing given the same circumstances."
The TV version of "The Incredible Hulk" with Bill Bixby was on TV around that time, and I can remember the first episode when the guy becomes the hulk and lifts a car off a person (his wife? can't remember the details) and I thought to myself, "That's just how I felt that night the car rolled." Strength and wisdom came from `somewhere'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid
And imagine if you had somehow come to the wrong house, a very unwelcoming home, that would have been horrid. So it is fitting that you found your parents church friends, like a big JUPITER welcoming you inside to bandage your wounds.
Transiting Jupiter was closely conjunct Mars in my 8th house!

Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid
p.s.
And the weird thing about my tapping the brakes, just a split second before I did it, i heard my own voice in my head say NO, don't brake! I KNEW better.
But I was sailing down a hill and saw the water pooled up at the bottom, and panicked a bit. BUT I IGNORED MY OWN WARNING !
So the Uranus, which by transit, was forming a grand square to my Pluto apex, took over and literally scared the shiett out of us. But just as swiftly laid us back down safely, out of harms way.

Jupiter in Taurus in my 12th, conjunct my asc, is the ruler of my 8th. It is in mutual reception with Venus in Sag in the 7th. I seem to have nine lives.
I like that voice in the head which actually knows better than the flawed intellect - but you were still OK despite listening to your head.
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Old 06-27-2009, 09:42 PM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

Thanks for your powerful messages, Katydid and R4ven.

I think the line between life and death is sometimes paper-thin. And that will power has a lot to do with it. And in some instances, sufficient preparation and knowledge, so that one's automatic pilot kicks in. I have been reading handbooks on wilderness survival lately, as my husband and I enjoy camping in some very remote places, and I want to improve our survival chances if something goes amiss. It seems that knowledge of some simple and practical actions, combined with the will to survive make a big difference when people get into difficulties. I think of plane captain Sully Sullenberger as an example.

I have another example, in my extended family, of women who were terminally ill, and who died the day after Christmas. It was as though they knew they were near death, but they decided to hang on through the holiday for their families' sakes.

Maybe a fatalistic and highly skilled astrologer could see this in a birth chart. Probably s/he could see that an individual had a strong will, but then sometimes it isn't enough, or the patient voluntarily decides to let go, according to some transit or other. I am not convinced that death is so deterministic.

BTW, I think sometimes a loved one's death does show up in the transits of survivors. Again, I don't think there is a single astrological signature; probably indicating that a death in the family means different things for different people. Sometimes a quincunx (150 degrees) is involved, which does indicate the need for an adjustment.
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Old 06-28-2009, 04:44 AM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I am not convinced that death is so deterministic.
I agree with that, too, waybread. I have heard too many stories about people waiting until they'd seen all their children, or other family members prior to their passing.

I knew this guy who had a heart attack at 50. He survived that one, but not the next one 3 months later. His wife later told me that between heart attacks 1 & 2 he contacted everyone he hadn't seen in a while - cousins, people with whom he'd played football, aunties, old school friends - and caught up with them all. Once he was satisfied he'd `connected' with everyone, he had his 2nd heart attack, which killed him instantly. His wife said that once he'd died she recognised that at some level he `knew' that his days were numbered, but he just had some things he had to do before he was free to go.

My father spent time with each of his 4 children in the 6 weeks leading up to his death, even though 1) the 4 of us are scattered all over the country, and 2) his death was not expected.
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Old 06-28-2009, 02:43 PM
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Re: Death of a Sibling

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I believe in a kind of spiritual astrology. To me, a death moment is a birth into a new dimension, which is why charts for death moments are as diverse as charts for birth moments.
Thank you for your reply. This message is quite optimistic, I hope that there is another dimension and that he is fine there.
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