Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Natal Astrology > Houses & cusps

Houses & cusps For discussions on houses and house cusps (i.e. planets on angles, house stelliums and so on)


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-17-2009, 05:57 PM
Joseph Ledzion's Avatar
Joseph Ledzion Joseph Ledzion is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 138
Re: Saturn woes.

While there is no historically valid reason for the creation of equal houses, they just sort of showed up all of sudden probably because they were easy to calculate, I use whole sign houses, which are the original house system.

Using this system, each sign has one topic. So aquarius is your first house, pisces is your second, etc. And the Ascendant, of course is just a horoscopic point. It was never intended to be the start of the houses, just a point of reference. It merely falls somewhere in the 1st house.

It takes the mess out of house systems. The ancients never had any of the problems with houses present today, and I find the interpretations to be more accurate -- by far.

the 2/8th axis is a security crisis, with a tug of war between your assets and another's.

Gotta run.

<3<3<3<3
Joseph

[whole sign vs. equal house discussion posted in the middle of someone else's thread so moved to Houses & cusps forum - Moderator]

__________________
"You do not know the meaning of anything you perceive. Not one thought you hold is wholly true. The recognition of this is your firm beginning." ACIM

Last edited by wilsontc; 04-18-2009 at 05:03 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-17-2009, 09:22 PM
astrologer50's Avatar
astrologer50 astrologer50 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 13,697
Re: Saturn woes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Ledzion
While there is no historically valid reason for the creation of equal houses, they just sort of showed up all of sudden probably because they were easy to calculate, I use whole sign houses, which are the original house system.

Using this system, each sign has one topic. So aquarius is your first house, pisces is your second, etc. And the Ascendant, of course is just a horoscopic point. It was never intended to be the start of the houses, just a point of reference. It merely falls somewhere in the 1st house.

It takes the mess out of house systems. The ancients never had any of the problems with houses present today, and I find the interpretations to be more accurate -- by far.

the 2/8th axis is a security crisis, with a tug of war between your assets and another's.

Gotta run.

<3<3<3<3
Joseph
Early Forms of House Division

The earliest forms of house division were those that link with, or run parallel to, the signs of the zodiac along the ecliptic. Proponents of the equal house system claim that it is more accurate and less distorting in higher latitudes (especially above 60 degrees) than the Placidean and other quadrant house systems. [2]

Whole sign

In the whole sign house system, sometimes referred to as the 'Sign-House system', the houses are 30° each. The ascendant designates the rising sign, and the first house begins at zero degrees of the zodiac sign in which the ascendant falls, regardless of how early or late in that sign the ascendant is. The next sign after the ascending sign then becomes the 2nd house, the sign after that the 3rd house, and so on. In other words, each house is wholly filled by one sign. This was the main system used in the Hellenistic tradition of astrology, and is also used in Indian astrology, as well as in some early traditions of Medieval astrology. It is thought to be the oldest system of house division.[3]

The Whole Sign system was originally developed in the Hellenistic tradition of astrology sometime around the 1st or 2nd century BCE, and from there it was passed to the Indian and early Medieval traditions of astrology. At some point in the Medieval period, probably around the 10th century, whole sign houses fell into disuse in the western tradition, and by the 20th century the system was completely unknown in the western astrological community, although was continually used in India all the way into the present time. Beginning in the 1980s and 1990's the system was rediscovered and reintroduced into western astrology. The distinction between equal houses and whole sign houses lies in the fact that in whole sign houses the cusp of the 1st house is the beginning of the sign that contains the ascendant, while in equal houses the degree of the ascendant is itself the cusp of the 1st house.

Equal House

In the equal house system the ecliptic is also divided into twelve divisions of 30 degrees, although the houses are measured out in 30 degree increments starting from the degree of the ascendant. It begins with the ascendant, which acts as the 'cusp' or starting point of the 1st house, then the second house begins exactly 30 degrees later in zodiacal order, then the third house begins exactly 30 degrees later in zodiacal order from the 2nd house, and so on.



The MC in Whole Sign & Equal House Systems

In the whole sign and equal house systems the Medium Coeli (Midheaven), the highest point in the chart, does not act as the cusp or starting point of the 10th house. Instead the MC moves around the top half of the chart, and can land anywhere in the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, depending on the latitude. The MC retains its commonly agreed significations, but it doesn't act as the starting point of the 10th house, therefore in Equal house it adds extra definition and meaning to MC and the cusps involved, but always MC is same in interpretations as other house systems.

This is also the more common criticism of the whole sign and equal house method as it concerns the location of the Medium Coeli (Midheaven), the highest point in the chart. In the equal house system, the ascendant/descendant and midheaven/nadir axes can vary from being perpendicular to each other (from approx. +-5 deg at most at equator to approx. +-15 degrees at Alexandria to +-90 degrees at polar circle). As a result, equal houses counted from the ascendant cannot in general place the midheaven on the tenth house cusp, where many feel it would be symbolically desirable. Since this point is associated with ambition, career, and public image, the argument is that the Midheaven, therefore, must be the cusp of the similar tenth house. It has also been linked by extension with Capricorn (the tenth sign of the zodiac). Because the Whole Sign and Equal House system do take the Midheaven into account, but relies on the location of the Ascendant, it can be found anywhere between the 8th and 11th houses. [4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_h...em#Equal_House

How then does an astrologer choose a house system? Well, the individual studying alone is more than likely to use Placidus Houses. The reason for this is simple - he has to consult an ephemeris in any case, and Raphael's Ephemeris is the most widely used, which gives the information needed for Placidus Houses.
Students who study with a recognised school are usually introduced to all of the house systems, but taught to use one far more than the others. This is usually the Equal House system, which incidentally is also the oldest one. In this house system, the twelve divisions are very much like spokes of a wheel, equally spaced at 30 degree intervals, with all houses being the same size. This is the easiest of the House systems to use, as it requires no further calculation. Once the Ascendant is known, one simply divides the rest of the chart using the Ascending degree as a starting point - so if the Ascendant is at 22 degrees Leo, this is take as the cusp of the first house, with the second house beginning at 22 degrees Virgo, the third at 22 degrees Libra and so forth.
The Equal House system is conceptually valid within today's astrological standpoint that every individual is free to become what their birth chart symbolises as their ultimate talent. The Ascendant has been shown to correspond to the way the person automatically approaches their environment - the 'persona' in Jungian terms. This person is therefore likely to approach every field of life in a specific way. A person with an Aquarius Ascendant, for example, will approach money-making and material values (2nd house) in a Pisces manner, will learn (3rd house) in an Aries manner, deal with family (4th house) in a Taurus manner and so forth.

The biggest criticism of the Equal House system concerns the position of the MC, which, using this system is more often than not the cusp of the tenth house (or any house) but rather is found within the 9th, 10th or 11th house.

The MC, being the highest point at birth, symbolises the aims and ambitions one works towards, and, by extension, one's career potential and public image. But these areas are also 10th house matters, devised, because of that house's association with Saturn, to show precisely these areas of life. It is therefore conceptually necessary (so goes the argument) that the MC be the cusp of the 10th house. For this reason, the Equal House system has a limited following outside the UK, although it is still the commonest House system within the UK.

http://www.astrolozy.com/article19.asp
http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/systems.html
http://www.skyviewzone.com/birthinfoforms2/housesexplained.htm

-The Equal House System avoids the problem with the Placidus which results in extremely uneven houses if the native should be born in extreme northern or southern latitudes.
-Each sign is fully represented on a house cusp.
-Debbie Kempton Smith the author of Secrets from an StarGazer's Notebook recommends either Equal House or Koch (unequal).
-Margaret Hone puts forth an excellent argument in favor of Equal House in her book, "Applied Astrology" which is why it is the default for SkyViewZone.
Jeff Mayo and the Faculty for Astrological Studies also favors this house system
.


Last edited by astrologer50; 04-17-2009 at 09:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-20-2010, 10:56 PM
m0ney*p0wer*re$pect's Avatar
m0ney*p0wer*re$pect m0ney*p0wer*re$pect is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 272
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

ok, my whole sign charts puts mars in my 1st house, i was ill tempered as a child, i always had bruises and some i still got, i have a mark on my forehead and i was always fighting. Its losing that i could not handle, losses hurt my ego strongly. I got in alot of trouble when i was young and even wrote out a hot check when i was in 4th grade for the book fair. I was hyper and active always looking for something to do.

I started lifting weights when i was 4 lol but with my uncle who played football in high school at that time and was living with us. I always did what i wanted to do and refused to keep taking riddlin(i spit it out b/c the nurse would not let me leave without taking it)finally i stopped at 13

when i look at my child hood and look at now, i can honestly say i kind of relate to the 1st house one more, my libra mars makes me more reserved now but my impulses are quick still, i kind of think that whole sign houses do carry a significance
__________________
http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi...RR-u1283368147 thats my chart
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-21-2010, 03:06 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 11,306
Re: Saturn woes.

Of course I join Mr. Ledzion in appreciation of and total dedication to the whole sign house format. However, this is a matter for each knowledgeable person to test out for themselves and come to their own conclusions in practice.

I will say this: regarding the various "researches" into astrology over the past half century, where houses have been involved in such research, all of this research has involved houses determined by quadrant systems (mostly by Placidus); little (if any) has involved houses determined by equal house (an ancient close relative of whole sign), and NONE has involved houses determined by the original, ancient whole sign format-I think this shows that such researches are seriously flawed because the original astrological proposition regarding houses, the whole sign format, was overlooked in such tests.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:14 PM
Mahasvapna Mahasvapna is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Athens, GA
Posts: 68
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

I have been debating on what system to use myself recently, and I have to say, that I had never really used anything but the house placidus system myself - like Dr. Farr says, I am learning and working independently and it's the most common system - but having run my chart through placidus, equal house, and whole sign, I'm inclined to agree with the Whole sign system. There are elements which in the placidus and equal house system are just not-quite-on, that when read through the whole sign system make a slight change - I have a handful of planets in different houses - that make a huge difference and make for a much deeper interpretation. My natal chart previously seemed to display some really interesting insights, but under the whole sign system it's downright uncanny. I'll be looking at a few other natal charts as well to get a broader view, but I'm inclined to think there is a reason why the ancient astrologers used this system.

peace
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-27-2011, 03:25 PM
tikana's Avatar
tikana tikana is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch, Wales
Posts: 5,796
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

EH?>>>

of course there is a historical valid reason. Parasara used equal houses back in 3000 BC...
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-27-2011, 03:52 PM
astrologer50's Avatar
astrologer50 astrologer50 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 13,697
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

There is strong suggestions of Ptolomy using Equal house system
http://www.ascendinglight.com/astrology/house_systems.htm
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=300895&postcount=47
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-19-2011, 11:30 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 10,430
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

Whole Sign in contrast with other House Systems has been a well debated topic - here's a link to another comprehensive discussion involving Whole Sign Houses http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=39669
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let your food be your medicine: let your medicine be your food. Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY red cabbage sliced Equatorially illustrates the Golden Mean Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-20-2011, 02:33 AM
Imitation_Scorpion Imitation_Scorpion is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 16
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

whole signs are fun, you can easily over lay them on another house system.

IE, cast a chart using regiomontious, and then use the whole house system on top of that, by chopping the chart up into a full 360* wheel, and marking every 30* as a new house, on top of the original house system.

This will give you TWO house systems on one chart. and can be done with any house system. Whole houses may just be a generic adapter between Hellenistic charts and Arabic chart house systems.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-20-2011, 04:43 AM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 379
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

I must admit that I think both whole signs and equal houses lose the individuality of the person.

Whole Signs will fit any and all persons born within the time that sign is rising (for approximately two hours, depending upon the latitude of the birthplace) anywhere in the world. Therefore that chart would cover millions and millions of people.

For this reason generally I call this system Kindergarten Astrology as it helps very beginner astrologers get some concept about astrology.

Equal Houses will fit anyone born with the same degree of the zodiac rising on the Eastern Horizon, so will also fit many, many thousands of people.

For this reason I call this Grade 1 Astrology as it helps beginners to start to get more of a concept of houses as aligned from the Ascendant.

Really neither of these are actual house systems. Whole signs is just the zodiac arranged in equal segments around the chart from 0 degrees of the sign rising on the Eastern horizon at the first breath. Equal houses are just 30 degree segments arranged around the chart from the time of the first breath.

The house systems themselves are various ways of dividing time (from which the Midheaven is calculated) and space (derived from the latitude of birth). These give individual houses, with active cusp degrees that really respond to transits, progressions and directions. These depend upon both the time and place of birth and describe the person as an individual rather than part of a large mass of people born around the same time.

The trick is finding which house system is your major resonance and then working with that system. I have derived a method that may help you do that and have written about it here: http://aliceportman.com/?p=57

The problem is that most people don't have a very accurate time of birth and this can easily affect determining a house system as the degrees on the cusps can move quite rapidly at times. However careful work can usually get an accurate 'fix' if you want to take the time to do it.

Alice
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-20-2011, 08:30 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 11,306
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

But the cusps (in the original meaning of that word)-that is the sensitive points for each house-which float about in each house as extensions from the ascending degree, do give perfect individuality, in whole sign, as these change every approximately 4 minutes.

However, there is much dispute over house systems, and I find your method of each person determining their "best" house system, to be both interesting and a creative suggestion for solving the house system question on an indiviudalized basis.

...but I myself will stick to whole sign, as it has been the most effectively accurate and reliable house system format, at least for me!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-20-2011, 09:17 AM
Imitation_Scorpion Imitation_Scorpion is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 16
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

I think the "loosing individuality" argument is invalid. Unless you are using aspects to the AC/MC and house cusps, it really doesn't matter. either way, its a 1 in 12 **** shoot irregardless.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-20-2011, 01:39 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 10,430
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
I must admit that I think both whole signs and equal houses lose the individuality of the person.Whole Signs will fit any and all persons born within the time that sign is rising (for approximately two hours, depending upon the latitude of the birthplace) anywhere in the world. Therefore that chart would cover millions and millions of people. For this reason generally I call this system Kindergarten Astrology as it helps very beginner astrologers get some concept about astrology.....Really neither of these are actual house systems. Whole signs is just the zodiac arranged in equal segments around the chart from 0 degrees of the sign rising on the Eastern horizon at the first breath.

The house systems themselves are various ways of dividing time (from which the Midheaven is calculated) and space (derived from the latitude of birth). These give individual houses, with active cusp degrees that really respond to transits, progressions and directions. These depend upon both the time and place of birth and describe the person as an individual rather than part of a large mass of people born around the same time.
If I may say so Alice, in my opinion what you have claimed is misleading because it is an inaccurate exposition of the reality. I quote dr. farr for an accurate exposition of Whole Sign Houses - the original House System

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Cusps: Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword-so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something, and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point"; now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other. And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems) But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded! In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses-each house-that is the "cusp" of each house-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.

Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)
Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything, but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

I quite agree with Waybread in the statement, "so what?" (if old time astrologers did or didn't do something) For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign-it worked better (FOR ME) I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago: only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above, does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?
Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched; but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners-to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you..
.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let your food be your medicine: let your medicine be your food. Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY red cabbage sliced Equatorially illustrates the Golden Mean Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-20-2011, 01:50 PM
astrologer50's Avatar
astrologer50 astrologer50 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 13,697
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

JA, I have exactly the same reasons for using *EQUAL HOUSE*
This is an age old old debating thing that will never be universal agreed or accepted by any ONE astrologer.

The only and best outcome is to AGREE TO DIFFER
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-20-2011, 01:54 PM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 379
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imitation_Scorpion View Post
I think the "loosing individuality" argument is invalid. Unless you are using aspects to the AC/MC and house cusps, it really doesn't matter. either way, its a 1 in 12 **** shoot irregardless.
Well of course one uses close aspects to MC, IC, Ascendant, Descendant, Vertex, antiVertex and house cusps - that is what the finely tuned systems of astrology are all about. With Daily Age Harmonics these points can be vastly different if the time of birth is even seconds out and likewise with Duad charts. Even midpoints to these positions can change every half to one minute of time.

Each individual human being is uniquely different to every other human being - even our finger prints are different to everyone else's. The finely tuned systems of astrology clearly map these unique qualities.

They are also excellent rectification and prediction tools.

If you just want to do broad based astrology then the finely tuned systems would probably not be of interest to you, but I love looking into the 'microscope' of midpoints, harmonics and duad charts and with these, the exact times of birth together with the correct house system are usually necessary.

Alice
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-20-2011, 02:20 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 10,430
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imitation_Scorpion View Post
I think the "loosing individuality" argument is invalid. Unless you are using aspects to the AC/MC and house cusps, it really doesn't matter. either way, its a 1 in 12 **** shoot irregardless.
Imitation_Scorpion, I agree that thinking the Whole Sign House System 'loses the individuality of the person' is an invalid assessment

here are my reasons:

1. (As dr farr has explained) Whole Signs DOES use MC/IC ASC/DESC as well as finely tuned sensitive points within each constellation-based Whole Sign

2. the original meaning of the word 'cusp' referred to these finely tuned 'sensitive points'

3. these finely tuned sensitive points within each house were based on the ascending degree but then were morphed into 'House borders'

to clarify therefore, when Alice opines the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
I must admit that I think both whole signs and equal houses lose the individuality of the person. Whole Signs will fit any and all persons born within the time that sign is rising (for approximately two hours, depending upon the latitude of the birthplace) anywhere in the world. Therefore that chart would cover millions and millions of people.
That is an incorrect assumption because.

1. The Whole Sign House System
has an Ascendant within the first Whole Sign House.

2. Therefore, millions of people born all over the world while the first whole Sign
house rises may all share the same Sign

3. BUT, (when allowance is made for Signs of long as well as short ascension) within the approximate two hours for that Sign to complete its transit over the Eastern horizon the Ascendant constantly changes continually between 0
30 of that ascending Sign

4. so all those millions of people have different, individual Ascendants. Therefore for those, as well as reasons previously enumerated, Whole Sign Houses does relate to the individual.



__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let your food be your medicine: let your medicine be your food. Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY red cabbage sliced Equatorially illustrates the Golden Mean Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

Last edited by JUPITERASC; 09-20-2011 at 02:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-20-2011, 11:06 PM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 379
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Imitation_Scorpion, I agree that thinking the Whole Sign House System 'loses the individuality of the person' is an invalid assessment

here are my reasons:

1. (As dr farr has explained) Whole Signs DOES use MC/IC ASC/DESC as well as finely tuned sensitive points within each constellation-based Whole Sign

2. the original meaning of the word 'cusp' referred to these finely tuned 'sensitive points'

3. these finely tuned sensitive points within each house were based on the ascending degree but then were morphed into 'House borders'

to clarify therefore, when Alice opines the following:



That is an incorrect assumption because.

1. The Whole Sign House System
has an Ascendant within the first Whole Sign House.

2. Therefore, millions of people born all over the world while the first whole Sign
house rises may all share the same Sign

3. BUT, (when allowance is made for Signs of long as well as short ascension) within the approximate two hours for that Sign to complete its transit over the Eastern horizon the Ascendant constantly changes continually between 0
30 of that ascending Sign

4. so all those millions of people have different, individual Ascendants. Therefore for those, as well as reasons previously enumerated, Whole Sign Houses does relate to the individual.



Then, if you are going to use Ascendants, MCs house cusps etc., why not just use the normal chart and house cusps calculated from the Ascendant and MC?

Whole signs are still covered by being the zodiac signs and planetary placements within those zodiac signs just as they have always been.

As to house cusps being house borders - well of course they are, one just has to watch transits, progression and directions to the cusp to see how the planetary energies manifest as they move into that house.

My Moon clearly manifests as a 4th house Moon, even though it is in the fifth sign from my Ascendant. Whenever anything transits or activates the Moon, matters to do with property or home always manifest. My Moon is even in the same house equivalent degree as my mother's natal Moon degree in Cancer. If you want to know how to work with equivalent house degrees I have a written on it in this article: http://aliceportman.com/?p=1355

If the ancients didn't know that doesn't mean it isn't so, it just means we have discovered it since these cultures died out.

Alice
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-20-2011, 11:38 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 10,430
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
Then, if you are going to use Ascendants, MCs house cusps etc., why not just use the normal chart and house cusps calculated from the Ascendant and MC? If the ancients didn't know that doesn't mean it isn't so, it just means we have discovered it since these cultures died out. Alice
(as dr farr has described) the original Whole Sign House System is a base for a comprehensive, fully functioning astrological prediction method that pre-dates all modern house systems and is completely independent of modern astrological methods - which are in fact derived from it.

Ancient astrological texts in Greek and Latin (that are records of even older astrological texts and technique) are in the process of being translated and are available from Project Hindsight http://www.projecthindsight.com/arch...llenistic.html

Not everyone can afford the Project Hindsight work, however we are fortunate to have a link to a free complete translation of Vettius Valens for those interested in exploring the ancient foundations on which modern astrology is built and upon which modern astrology depends http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let your food be your medicine: let your medicine be your food. Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY red cabbage sliced Equatorially illustrates the Golden Mean Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-20-2011, 11:38 PM
Imitation_Scorpion Imitation_Scorpion is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 16
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

"If the ancients didn't know that doesn't mean it isn't so, it just means we have discovered it since these cultures died out."


Because traditional astrology is a closed system unto its self, it allows no deviation for modern "discoveries". and yet the whole of the system still works completely without interference from modern tools.

One must mix art with discretion.

When you don't understand something, or its not clear enough then you can just switch to whole system, and alter back and forth. Sometimes you just have to wing it based on experience and what you know.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-21-2011, 12:24 AM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 379
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
(as dr farr has described) the original Whole Sign House System is a base for a comprehensive, fully functioning astrological prediction method that pre-dates all modern house systems and is completely independent of modern astrological methods - which are in fact derived from it.

Ancient astrological texts in Greek and Latin (that are records of even older astrological texts and technique) are in the process of being translated and are available from Project Hindsight http://www.projecthindsight.com/arch...llenistic.html

Not everyone can afford the Project Hindsight work, however we are fortunate to have a link to a free complete translation of Vettius Valens for those interested in exploring the ancient foundations on which modern astrology is built and upon which modern astrology depends http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Yes, I am very familiar with Project Hindsight - I had been a practicing astrologer for twenty years or so when the three Roberts started it. We were all very excited and most astrologers contributed to the Project. I was particularly excited because I love to study the astrology of different and ancient cultures.

What I never thought would happen was that people would try to apply that ancient system to modern life and completely discard all that we have discovered since then. I am still gob smacked that this has occurred.

Even though most agree that these ancient structures are the basis of modern astrology, that doesn't mean we have to stand still and live with the concepts and thought patterns of those people of long, long ago - it just doesn't fit the modern world at all well as we live completely different kinds of lives.

In every field of thought and application we have learned more than the people in those eras had any hope of knowing and as a result all forms of science, philosophy, medicine etc., etc., have changed and grown .. as has astrology. Why on earth would astrologers not want to use all that we have discovered in astrology since then? Why on earth would astrologers want to use the astrology of people who kept slaves, regularly abused women and were just ignorant of the astronomy of astrology?

.. anyway, I could go on and on, but I don't think it would make any difference. If astrologers want to live and think like those bygone people they will.

Alice
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 09-21-2011, 02:49 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 11,306
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

That's why I am an eclectic: I choose what "makes sense" to me, and then what "works" for me. from the Hellenists, the Traditionalists, the Modernists, even some from the jyotish and Chinese models! I certainly lean toward old time concepts and methods, but I am by no means an exclusivist here-what I have taken from Moderns such as Charles Carter, is pretty extensive. So I encourage people, especially beginners, to be open minded, to read a wide range of the literature, and to constantly put theories to the test of practical delineation-to hold fast what "works" for them, regardless of the source, and to not worry about or waste their time on concepts/methods which don't work, FOR THEM...and to accord respect for all points of view, including those which differ radically from their own...
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-10-2012, 12:11 PM
nbennett nbennett is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Austin Tx
Posts: 15
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

If you feel you want to test WH or Equal, just put in the MC/IC like a planet in the chart. Watch tMars for 6 months an see if it hits the MC degree and what happens. In 6 months Mars will move 90deg and hit every degree in your chart. See which ones are strong for you, especially the MC versus the ASC deg. Of course, if they are close, you will not be able to tell.

In my chart the ASC degree is strong since the Equal House 10th at 5deg, called the nonagesimal has Saturn and Moon near by at 4 and 2. My MC is at 17deg. I really get the transits from the 2-5deg, but very, very little at the 17deg.

I'm a firm user of Equal House, it is a refinement of Whole Sign. Yes I have studied with Robert Hand but my first teacher was Carl Payne Tobey. With Equal, all cusps are the same degree as the ASC. If you are married to the MC/IC your software can put it in just like a planet.

There are real math measurement reasons for this that are complicated. In simple form, the Asc/Dsc is measured on the ecliptic. The MC/IC is measured on the equator. These two planes are 23deg26min apart. That is why there are so many house systems, trying to rectify this difference. Only equal and Whole Sign measure all houses on the ecliptic. All other house systems fail above the Arctic Circle.

If you are a beginner, stay with either Whole Sign or Equal. It will serve you better.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to nbennett For This Useful Post:
StillOne (11-10-2012)
  #23  
Old 11-10-2012, 10:37 PM
m0ney*p0wer*re$pect's Avatar
m0ney*p0wer*re$pect m0ney*p0wer*re$pect is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 272
Re: Whole sign or Equal House?

Well I kno as far as transits go..whole sign it is. Natally I'm still looking into but transits seem to fit just right for me with whole signs
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
equal, house, sign

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
which house system? coco Other Astrology 40 05-27-2012 07:06 PM
House System Insanity!!! Please help..... gesso Houses & cusps 70 04-09-2009 02:51 PM
Interesting theory on the degrees gimzo23 Natal Astrology 41 03-04-2009 12:07 AM
Sexual career? ckr1 Vocational Astrology 17 06-25-2008 03:49 AM
Is this chart slightly abnormal? laliqueviolin Houses & cusps 17 07-20-2006 02:47 PM



All times are GMT. The time now is 12:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2005-2012, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.