I live with someone that I can't stand

[Watersign]

This is his chart.
http://www.astro.com/cgi/aclch.cgi?b...go.x=19&go.y=9

We used to be a couple but over time I became disappointed in him to the point that I cannot bear to be in the same room with him alone.

This is my chart:
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?r...&nhor=4&nho2=2

I wonder if you guys think that the compatibility chart is any good from astro.com
http://www.astro.com/cgi/aclch.cgi?b...&nhor=4&nho2=2

I don't think he's doing anything to annoy me on purpose.

My moon is in pisces, his in aquarius. I don't know if that's compatible. There is such a sense of silent tension and disharmony that it stresses me out and gives me headaches. I want to leave my own house just to get a break from the bad vibes. He's doing his best. I wish I had more astrological insight into my own problem. I would be so grateful for any insight. What can I do to feel peaceful in his presence? He comes from a nightmare background and if I kick him out he would have to go back to his mentally abusive family. He also contributes with expenses.

Thanks for any help

[R4VEN]

Watersign, that is such a difficult situation you describe. Living with someone you don't like any more can be very debilitating.

I'll just point out a couple of things which leapt out at me......
The first is that his Mars in Pisces is conjunct your moon, although it's a widish orb. This can produce a mirroring effect, where what it is about him totally irritates you - and vice versa. There's a bit of weakness in Mars in Pisces in a man - the victim persona - and you would really hate that, since you have a tendency towards this yourself, with moon in Pisces (but would likely not admit to it..) Your Mars in Aries close to your ascendant is not a weak Mars energy - directly the opposite - and I suspect that you strongly identify with this energy.

You both have Chiron in the 12th house - you in Aries, and he in Taurus. This is a very sensitive place for Chiron to be for each of you, and given you are living under the same roof I'm not surprised you are irritating one another. I've no doubt you are both projecting to the other the wounds (of the other) which you are both furiously trying to hide/deny/run from.

(I created my own biwheel of your charts using the information on the charts as they were displayed. This works for me.)

[starlink]

My moon is in pisces, his in aquarius. I don't know if that's compatible

No, it is not compatible and the Moons are the most important planets to look at. No compatibility then sooner or later the relationship gets tense or breaks.

[Moulin]

Originally Posted by starlink

No, it is not compatible and the Moons are the most important planets to look at. No compatibility then sooner or later the relationship gets tense or breaks.

Oh gosh l feel for you.
I had a relationship where his taurus moon was irritating my aries moon. I suggest moving on from this one before it turns to fights etc.

[katydid]

My moon is in pisces, his in aquarius. I don't know if that's compatible. There is such a sense of silent tension and disharmony that it stresses me out and gives me headaches. I want to leave my own house just to get a break from the bad vibes. He's doing his best. I wish I had more astrological insight into my own problem. I would be so grateful for any insight. What can I do to feel peaceful in his presence? He comes from a nightmare background and if I kick him out he would have to go back to his mentally abusive family. He also contributes with expenses.
---------------------------------------------------

This is a difficult situation. Moon in Pisces takes everything personally, while Aquarius Moon takes nothing personally. Pisces Moon is sensitive and respectful, Aquarius moon, not so much.
I would hope you could try and figure out what your important lesson is here, and 'learn it' fast so you both can move on. Maybe you are supposed to learn not to be so sensitive and to take everything so personally at your own detriment. Hopefully his Aquarian moon will seek greener pastures soon and you will be free from the emotional prison that the Pisces moon inhabits under circumstances like this.

[Watersign]

Wow, all of you. Thank you!!!

All that is right on 100 percent. Can you please tell me R4ven how do you put the charts together. Is that couples chart at astro.com something to look at? Can I actually read like: his saturn is in my .... house? How do you put them together?

He's a total total victim and I fight the victim thing actively. I'm going to have to look at all this later again to really absorb it.

[wilsontc]

sign,

You said:

Originally Posted by Watersign

We used to be a couple but over time I became disappointed in him to the point that I cannot bear to be in the same room with him alone...There is such a sense of silent tension and disharmony that it stresses me out and gives me headaches...He comes from a nightmare background and if I kick him out he would have to go back to his mentally abusive family.

You have between you two challenging connections of Neptune (spirituality, also idealization) and (energy is combined with) Venus (relationships), indicating you both "idealized" the relationship and thought it was something that it wasn't. Once you realized what the relationship actually was, you became aware of the issues, indicated in many ways in the synastry:
- Both your Mars (being, also anger) in challenging aspects to your Moon (home, also emotions), indicating angry emotions between you
- Your Mercuries (thinking, also talking) in challenging connections to each other, indicating arguments
- Your Saturns (duty, also authority) in challenging connections to each other, indicating "Who's the boss?" issues
- Pluto (transformation, also power) opposite (energy is over-excited by) Mars between you, indicating powerful anger issues

All these things could have been worked out IF you were "aware" of them in the beginning and worked TOGETHER to handle these issues. But you were both in an "idealized world" so now you feel "tricked" now that the Neptune-Venus illusion is gone. The tension will and has always been there...you can work on it together, but the issues they represent will always have to be faced and handled. If you don't want this sort of tension...then you need to get rid of the relationship.

I know you are concerned about what happens to him, but you can't control his life for him. Whatever happens to him will happen, and maybe not having you as a "crutch" will FORCE him to finally handle the family issues he has been avoiding his whole life. Maybe so, maybe not. What IS certain is if you BOTH are unable to handle these VERY challenging interconnections between you, is things will get worse between you, not better. So let him go and handle his own life as best he can, so you can go out and find a relationship that isn't quite so "stressed."

And next time, be careful about any "perfect relationship"...because they don't exist. ALL relationships take work from BOTH people in the relationship to make them work.

Relating,

Tim

[Watersign]

Originally Posted by wilsontc

sign,

You said:


You have between you two challenging connections of Neptune (spirituality, also idealization) and (energy is combined with) Venus (relationships), indicating you both "idealized" the relationship and thought it was something that it wasn't. Once you realized what the relationship actually was, you became aware of the issues, indicated in many ways in the synastry:
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,
Are you talking about his chart and my chart respectively? I'm not seeing the challenging aspects between Venus and Neptune.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,
- Both your Mars (being, also anger) in challenging aspects to your Moon (home, also emotions), indicating angry emotions between you
......................................
There's a lot of anger on both sides but it's muffled. Can you tell me what kind of chart you are consulting?
.....................................
- Your Mercuries (thinking, also talking) in challenging connections to each other, indicating arguments
......................................
Communication is a massive issue. I see him as "I have problems, therefore I am". If I have an issue with him it is because I am creating it myself. He seems to pretend that everything's fine. He's exudes pain and negativity whether he speaks or doesn't.
...........................................
- Your Saturns (duty, also authority) in challenging connections to each other, indicating "Who's the boss?" issues
.............................................
I've been the boss but he is frustrated that he is too weak to be the boss so he can be a sabotager.
.....................................
- Pluto (transformation, also power) opposite (energy is over-excited by) Mars between you, indicating powerful anger issues.
......................
Again anger is at the forefront.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

All these things could have been worked out IF you were "aware" of them in the beginning and worked TOGETHER to handle these issues. But you were both in an "idealized world" so now you feel "tricked" now that the Neptune-Venus illusion is gone. The tension will and has always been there...you can work on it together, but the issues they represent will always have to be faced and handled. If you don't want this sort of tension...then you need to get rid of the relationship.
..................................................
Where did the Neptune/Venus illusion go? I have many times realized that I deluded myself about him until about two years ago.
.................................................. ..

I know you are concerned about what happens to him, but you can't control his life for him. Whatever happens to him will happen, and maybe not having you as a "crutch" will FORCE him to finally handle the family issues he has been avoiding his whole life. Maybe so, maybe not. What IS certain is if you BOTH are unable to handle these VERY challenging interconnections between you, is things will get worse between you, not better. So let him go and handle his own life as best he can, so you can go out and find a relationship that isn't quite so "stressed."
..............................................
Thanks for understanding that I am concerned about his wellbeing. I told him today that I had to stay away from him to avoid the tension. Also that it's nobody's fault but we should part. I think he cried a lot today. I wonder if this is because he can't deluded himself/a show of his normal depressive feelings/or the realization that he must leave. He's extremely passive, a victim and comfortable with tension and negativity. I will see how difficult it will be to extricate him from my house.
..................................................
...

And next time, be careful about any "perfect relationship"...because they don't exist. ALL relationships take work from BOTH people in the relationship to make them work.

Relating,

Tim

Also, if I may ask another question. His chart seems to make not a whole lot of planetary aspects. Am I seeing this right? Does this indicate anything? I'll post the link again
http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi...9A-u1233637891

Thank you so much!!! I really do appreciate your time and insight.

[wilsontc]

sign,

You asked:

Originally Posted by wilsontc

Are you talking about his chart and my chart respectively? I'm not seeing the challenging aspects between Venus and Neptune...Where did the Neptune/Venus illusion go? I have many times realized that I deluded myself about him until about two years ago...he cried a lot today. I wonder if this is because he can't deluded himself/a show of his normal depressive feelings/or the realization that he must leave...His chart seems to make not a whole lot of planetary aspects. Am I seeing this right? Does this indicate anything? I'll post the link again

I am using a synastry chart between you. I think the chart you posted is the composite chart which is the chart of the relationship itself and not the chart of the people IN the relationship. The "illusion" tends to go away when two people actually have to interact with each other. They discover that what they thought was there, wasn't there after all. Relationship reality is a big "waker upper" from illusions!

The link is expired but I have his information. He has Moon (home, also emotions) conjunct (energy is combined with) Midheaven (outer world), so his emotions are always "on show". However, Aquarius (friends) modifies his Moon, so his normal reaction is to want to be "close but not TOO close" with his emotions. And his Moon has easy connections to planetary energy, indicating he should be able to handle his emotions. This suggests that he may be trying to emotionally "get you going" so you will change your mind. This is a possibility since he has Mars (being, also action) square (energy needs to be combined with) Neptune (spirituality, also deception), indicating that he is capable of deceptive actions.

He is 28 and coming up on his Saturn return, the time when he needs to "grow up" and become an adult. So part of the "act" is realizing he can't hide from his problems any more. When he was a child and had no "say" in the matter, he couldn't do much about it, but now, as an adult, he has to own his energies, make his own decisions, and work out his life decisions on his own or with others as best he can. The Saturn lesson is: you have to do your duty and face your responsibilities. And it is about time he learned that lesson.

His chart, compared to yours, is much less "interconnected", indicating that he has to do more work to "connect in" with his energies. And there are some energies that barely "connect in" (i.e., are "least aspected"): the Moon (home, also emotions) and Uranus (friends, also rebellion). The lesson here is that a LITTLE emotion and rebellion go a LONG way. OVERdoing either emotion or rebellion can be an issue. It seems he is learning that lesson right now. The strongest focus of energy is in his 11th house (friends, also rebellion), also indicating he could be "rebel" in his own way. Since the planets are in Pisces (spirituality, also deception), this could come out spiritually but also could be deceptive (as previously mentioned).

Explaining,

Tim

[Watersign]

Hi Tim,
I feel particularly grateful for your interpretation and your time. I have gone through your tutuorial many times and I really like it a lot. You're doing something great there.
..............................
you said:
I am using a synastry chart between you. I think the chart you posted is the composite chart which is the chart of the relationship itself and not the chart of the people IN the relationship.
.................................................. ...........
Now I know what a synastry chart is, thank you.

You said:
The link is expired but I have his information. He has Moon (home, also emotions) conjunct (energy is combined with) Midheaven (outer world), so his emotions are always "on show".
.................................................. .
This is very true.
.............................
You said:
However, Aquarius (friends) modifies his Moon, so his normal reaction is to want to be "close but not TOO close" with his emotions. And his Moon has easy connections to planetary energy, indicating he should be able to handle his emotions.
.........................................
I see what you're saying but I don't think that he is emotionally stable to the point of borderline personality disorder.
.................................................. ...........
you said:

This suggests that he may be trying to emotionally "get you going" so you will change your mind. This is a possibility since he has Mars (being, also action) square (energy needs to be combined with) Neptune (spirituality, also deception), indicating that he is capable of deceptive actions.
.................................................. ..........
His Mars square Neptune is trying to emotionally get me going? He is extremely characteristic of Mars square Neptune: discouraged, escapist, deluded, bad chronic cough. Capable of deceipt but he's not a huge liar.
You said:
He is 28 and coming up on his Saturn return, the time when he needs to "grow up" and become an adult. So part of the "act" is realizing he can't hide from his problems any more. When he was a child and had no "say" in the matter, he couldn't do much about it, but now, as an adult, he has to own his energies, make his own decisions, and work out his life decisions on his own or with others as best he can. The Saturn lesson is: you have to do your duty and face your responsibilities. And it is about time he learned that lesson.
..................................................
This is a major source of tension. He is extremely immature and won't take responsbility for his part in his problems
You said:

His chart, compared to yours, is much less "interconnected", indicating that he has to do more work to "connect in" with his energies. And there are some energies that barely "connect in" (i.e., are "least aspected"): the Moon (home, also emotions) and Uranus (friends, also rebellion).
.................................................. .
Are you saying that there is a lack of aspects relating to the moon and uranus? If so I don't see that.
You said:
The lesson here is that a LITTLE emotion and rebellion go a LONG way. OVERdoing either emotion or rebellion can be an issue. It seems he is learning that lesson right now. The strongest focus of energy is in his 11th house (friends, also rebellion), also indicating he could be "rebel" in his own way. Since the planets are in Pisces (spirituality, also deception), this could come out spiritually but also could be deceptive (as previously mentioned).
..............................................
He has very little interest in spiritual matters which I find unusual for somewhat with so much pisces energy. He hates to be alone and only seems happy when people are paying attention to him/validating him. He's a bit of a black hole in that way. Friends are important to him but I have questioned whether he cares about his friends or if he just needs them. Once he's done being around people he seems to forget about them entirely and he has expressed curiosity about this. As in: "I'm so caring I'm such a great friend but then I don't try to keep relationships going". Apart from needing attention/validation from people he's usually incredibly angry and most of the people in his life and in the background of his life. He has a tendency to be fairly passive aggressive which I would call a sort of rebellion.

Your interpretation is right on, of course. It would be so much easier to let him hang around but I'm feeling a knot in my stomach and tension. He has this way where I feel like I'm abusing him for not giving him all the things his mother couldn't. His mother is basically a crazy woman who couldn't love him unconditionally. So he goes through life looking for that from people getting furious when they won't or don't deliver. He's an okay person but the problem is totally the fact that I feel bad around him and better when he's gone. Do you see why he seems to me to be a black cloud? R4ven said something about a mirroring effect.

Thanks again to all of you for teaching me some things here. I will continue to let him know that I would prefer it if he would leave. It is so hard to be consistently rejecting someone in your house. I'm not ready to lay down the law and give him thirty days notice.

Explaining,

Tim

[wilsontc]

sign,

You said:

Originally Posted by Watersign

I have gone through your tutuorial many times and I really like it a lot. You're doing something great there...Are you saying that there is a lack of aspects relating to the moon and uranus? If so I don't see that...this could come out spiritually but also could be deceptive...He has very little interest in spiritual matters...only seems happy when people are paying attention to him/validating him...whether he cares about his friends or if he just needs them. Once he's done being around people he seems to forget about them entirely...[he says,] "I'm so caring I'm such a great friend

I am pleased that both my comments and my basic astrology website (located below this post) have been useful to you in opening you up to the wonders of astrology. The lack of planetary aspects between Moon and Uranus is much clearer if you don't look at the "astro-click" chart and instead create a "regular" birth chart. It seems based on your description that he uses his Pisces energy for deception: he tries to deceive others about what he does and he tries to deceive himself as well. It is your decision as whether or not to take steps to remove him from your house. Just know that most likely he won't go willingly and will always try to guilt you into feeling responsible for him. And the emotional "bad feeling" towards him won't go away...it may very well get worse, since you "sense" some of his "bad energy".

Wishing you emotional health,

Tim

[Watersign]

Dear Tim,

I understand now. Moon and Uranus don't connect to EACH OTHER. I was seeing that they both connect to some other things. The bad feeling is exactly what you said! He tries to guilt me into being responsible for him. I try so hard to be strong in myself and not to play. It's so much work to not engage it. That's why I love when he's not home. He claims to have no idea why I would want to be alone without him. With him, I have to be the bad guy and he has to be my victim. It's all unspoken so it's like passive aggressive behavior. It's maddening but silent and invisible. I have told him for years that he plays the victim so I must be the abuser. He can't or won't stop playing this game. He is trying to guilt me. I even told him today that I felt guilty for asking to not be in the same room with him. He sulked and said pathetically, "Don't." Why astrologically do you think he won't want to leave? Who would want to be around someone who wishes for freedom from their b.s. The worse it gets vibe-wise the sicker it gets. I have always sensed that he wants things good and sick like when he was a child. Since I am actively rejecting him he gets to really wallow in his victimhood.

Thanks again for everything!

[wilsontc]

sign,

You asked:

Originally Posted by Watersign

I love when he's not home...he plays the victim so I must be the abuser...He is trying to guilt me...Why astrologically do you think he won't want to leave?...The worse it gets vibe-wise the sicker it gets. I have always sensed that he wants things good and sick like when he was a child.

You have Moon (home, also emotions) focused in the 12th house (spirituality) trine (energy goes very easily with) Scorpio (transformation, also research) modifying Mercury (thinking) focused in the 7th house. This indicates that you emotionally "connect in" with everything and easily use that ability to "research out" the thoughts of those you relate with. It makes you a kind of human "lie detector" in relationships. And he is all lies all the time. So this affects you emotionally.

He continues to lie because...it is getting him what he wants. You get to play the "harsh authority" and he gets to play the "abused child". It's a sick, sick game and it's making you sick. You see it so clearly...but you won't leave it. You can't help him, only he can help himself by deciding not to play this sick game any more.

And what indicates this astrologically is his Moon (home, also emotions, nurturing) has one aspect (i.e., "least aspected") to a conjunction (combination of energies), and his Uranus has one aspect to a stellium (collection of energies). So he "barely connects" to his emotional nurturing and rebellion and so overdoes them (as mentioned before). So he plays emotional games of demanding continual nurturing at the same time he is rebelling against those who nurture him.

About the sickness,

Tim

[Watersign]

Wow!!! Tim you really nailed it. thanks so much for breaking it down and showing it to me. Anyone who meets him thinks he is the nicest guy in the world. I have said these things to him: you are delusional, I'm not sure you really care about anyone. He denies this stuff so quickly. By the time I'm done talking to him I'm on his side against me! I am like a human lie detector but he has had me fooled for quite a while. I just chalked it up to, "he's sick. He had it rough. He has post traumatic stress disorder". Now I see I can't talk to him because his reality does not match mine at all and this is not something I can handle. So I wonder if I'm wrong or right. He can confuse me. Is that the power of neptune?
I knew things were bad for a long time but I never suspected that he was deceptive even though he did lie occasionally. Mostly when he was ashamed.
I also have told him many times that I know that I can't help him anymore.

Thanks once more. You have helped me a great deal. I didn't have the guts to trust my instinct. I am told often that I always see things in their worst possible light so I resist seeing how bad things are at times. He is deceptive that's why I can't bear to talk to him.

[Watersign]

Dear Tim,

I keep reading the following over and over. I can't follow it.
you said:
And what indicates this astrologically is his Moon (home, also emotions, nurturing) has one aspect (i.e., "least aspected") to a conjunction (combination of energies),
...................
isn't the one aspect to the saturn/jupiter conjunction? That means he's poorly connected to his own emotions? He sad and depressed but he seems to not even know it sometimes he's so distracted from his own self. He knows how to tell people what they want to hear. He plays the role everyone wants him to play like a genius. But he can't keep anything going too long.
Can you tell me why a Moon with aspects to saturn/jupiter would indicate this? You are so on the money that it's eery.:60:

[freedomlover]

Watersign,

I'm living in a very similar situation. If it helps at all to know - I know exactly how you feel. I've taken to staying up all night in an effort to remove myself from his energy.

However, I would like to point out some things I saw while taking a quick peek at your charts you posted:

On your composite chart:
This really draws a picture of what Tim said about him replaying his childhood drama. Saturn in Leo is exactly conjunct the IC, and rules the 9th. 9th rules belief systems, experiences, and also the way our parents/authority figures communicated with us as children. Sun and Mercury(r) are conjunct in Capricorn in the 9th. This combination of Cap and Leo shows severe problems with being over-controlled/dominated, etc. and/or being that way themselves. The Saturn in Leo on the IC suggests he wants to dominate the home. The tendency would be to think the world is supposed to revolve around him.

Ruler of Asc is Venus in Aquarius in the 10th. Venus wants to be friends - and she wants her space. Venus can also show his being rebellious and detached emotionally. Mars rules the Dsc, and is an intercepted house in Aries - Pisces on the cusp. This is a good picture of his ability to properly assert himself - he doesn't. He is passive-aggressive. (Pisces on cusp - intercepted Aries). Also he has deep-seated anger issues he's not dealing with. Mars opposed Pluto in Libra in the 6th. Pluto in Libra in 6th points to power struggles over service and also choices made/discernment.

The Moon in Pisces in the 11th - again the dual role of one being compassionate and friendly, and the other being rebellious and passive-aggressive/deceptive. Moon rules the 3rd house of communication and roommates.

I thought it summed it up quite nicely. Tim's post should be the commentary to that composite chart.

A couple of comments about your chart:

Be really, really self-scrutinizing, and see if there is not any sort of mirror effect going on here -even if he is much worse than your part of the mirror. I say this because you also have Aries intercepted in 12th house, with Pisces on the cusp. You have Mars(r) in Aires in the 12th, along with Chiron(r). Mars rules your intercepted 12th, as well as the 7th house. This would point to what you are denying seeing about yourself being mirrored in partner relationships. Either something you are denying seeing about yourself, or something you failed to "see" in your family of origin that is re-cycling around again.

Moon in Pisces is also there, ruling the 4th. This may have been a pattern of relating you learned in your family of origin. Was your mother the martyr type - very subservient? This could represent an "element" of your mother that you have taken on in some way, and do not know you are doing it.

Also, regarding your synastry... it looks like your North Node in Sagittarius is conjunct his Neptune in Sag in the 8th. I would interpret that as it is part of your life lesson to "see through" his Neptune cloud in Sagittarius. Being in the 8th, it could involve shared money,sex, or just out and out unspoken negative emotions that are churning.

Hope that helps... best of luck to you.. I certainly feel for you!

FL

[Watersign]

Hi FL,

Great hearing from you. Great insights. I also stay up late to avoid him as much as possible.
you said:
This really draws a picture of what Tim said about him replaying his childhood drama. Saturn in Leo is exactly conjunct the IC, and rules the 9th. 9th rules belief systems, experiences, and also the way our parents/authority figures communicated with us as children. Sun and Mercury(r) are conjunct in Capricorn in the 9th. This combination of Cap and Leo shows severe problems with being over-controlled/dominated, etc. and/or being that way themselves. The Saturn in Leo on the IC suggests he wants to dominate the home. The tendency would be to think the world is supposed to revolve around him.
..............................
Perfectly true.
.....................
you wrote:
Ruler of Asc is Venus in Aquarius in the 10th. Venus wants to be friends - and she wants her space. Venus can also show his being rebellious and detached emotionally. Mars rules the Dsc, and is an intercepted house in Aries - Pisces on the cusp. This is a good picture of his ability to properly assert himself - he doesn't. He is passive-aggressive. (Pisces on cusp - intercepted Aries). Also he has deep-seated anger issues he's not dealing with. Mars opposed Pluto in Libra in the 6th. Pluto in Libra in 6th points to power struggles over service and also choices made/discernment.
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totally true
..........................
you wrote:
A couple of comments about your chart:

Be really, really self-scrutinizing, and see if there is not any sort of mirror effect going on here -even if he is much worse than your part of the mirror. I say this because you also have Aries intercepted in 12th house, with Pisces on the cusp. You have Mars(r) in Aires in the 12th, along with Chiron(r). Mars rules your intercepted 12th, as well as the 7th house. This would point to what you are denying seeing about yourself being mirrored in partner relationships. Either something you are denying seeing about yourself, or something you failed to "see" in your family of origin that is re-cycling around again.
..................................
This situation is so painful that I do try to analyze my role since I can only change myself. My father is this kind of personality. He plays the good guy. I didn't realize the deception until I was an adult.
..............................................
you wrote:
Moon in Pisces is also there, ruling the 4th. This may have been a pattern of relating you learned in your family of origin. Was your mother the martyr type - very subservient? This could represent an "element" of your mother that you have taken on in some way, and do not know you are doing it.
.........................................
Hi FL,

Great hearing from you. Great insights. I also stay up late to avoid him as much as possible.
you said:
This really draws a picture of what Tim said about him replaying his childhood drama. Saturn in Leo is exactly conjunct the IC, and rules the 9th. 9th rules belief systems, experiences, and also the way our parents/authority figures communicated with us as children. Sun and Mercury(r) are conjunct in Capricorn in the 9th. This combination of Cap and Leo shows severe problems with being over-controlled/dominated, etc. and/or being that way themselves. The Saturn in Leo on the IC suggests he wants to dominate the home. The tendency would be to think the world is supposed to revolve around him.
..............................
Perfectly true.
.....................
you wrote:
Ruler of Asc is Venus in Aquarius in the 10th. Venus wants to be friends - and she wants her space. Venus can also show his being rebellious and detached emotionally. Mars rules the Dsc, and is an intercepted house in Aries - Pisces on the cusp. This is a good picture of his ability to properly assert himself - he doesn't. He is passive-aggressive. (Pisces on cusp - intercepted Aries). Also he has deep-seated anger issues he's not dealing with. Mars opposed Pluto in Libra in the 6th. Pluto in Libra in 6th points to power struggles over service and also choices made/discernment.
..........................
totally true
..........................
you wrote:
A couple of comments about your chart:

Be really, really self-scrutinizing, and see if there is not any sort of mirror effect going on here -even if he is much worse than your part of the mirror. I say this because you also have Aries intercepted in 12th house, with Pisces on the cusp. You have Mars(r) in Aires in the 12th, along with Chiron(r). Mars rules your intercepted 12th, as well as the 7th house. This would point to what you are denying seeing about yourself being mirrored in partner relationships. Either something you are denying seeing about yourself, or something you failed to "see" in your family of origin that is re-cycling around again.
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This situation is so painful that I do try to analyze my role since I can only change myself. My father is this kind of personality. He plays the good guy. I didn't realize the deception until I was an adult.
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you wrote:
Moon in Pisces is also there, ruling the 4th. This may have been a pattern of relating you learned in your family of origin. Was your mother the martyr type - very subservient? This could represent an "element" of your mother that you have taken on in some way, and do not know you are doing it.
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My mother was the bad guy. She was extremely abusive. She was a perfect villain to my father's saint persona. This is something my housemate is trying to play out with me but I am resisting it and not engaging it. I tell him so.
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you wrote:
Also, regarding your synastry... it looks like your North Node in Sagittarius is conjunct his Neptune in Sag in the 8th. I would interpret that as it is part of your life lesson to "see through" his Neptune cloud in Sagittarius. Being in the 8th, it could involve shared money,sex, or just out and out unspoken negative emotions that are churning.
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I agree with this. I half believed his victim trip. Even if he's the victim of his own thinking. He is still sort of a victim. Now that I am done with him I am seeing the games but I don't think he sees what he's doing at all. So he really believes that everyone is against him.

Good luck with your situation . It's tough to kick someone out. I already broke up with him.
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[R4VEN]

Watersign, I don't wish to muddy your already muddied situation with excessive details, but I'm including a link to a good site which describes in detail Narcissistic Personality Disorder. The delusions this guy is living under sound a bit `familiar' to me:

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html

Anyway, have a read, and if it doesn't click for you, then that's OK. It's just that a couple of `signs' are inherent in what you say in your posts:

• this guy's inability to self-examine, plus his complete denial of culpability
• his world of fantasy - a classic NPD trait
• his forcing you into feeling that you are in some way responsible
• the fact that he reminds you of your mother (those who end up in r/ships with narcissists frequently have grown up around them, and even `attract' them)

You can't help or fix someone like this - you have to get them out!!

[Watersign]

Wow R4ven,

I have many times gone on the internet trying to figure out what's wrong with him. Both my parents are narcissists and I see narcissists everywhere. I even wrote a screenplay called The Narcissist. It never occurred to me he was a narcissist because he's so weak and victimy. I told him to go to counseling yet it never seems to help him. I figured he had borderline disorder. To make myself tolerate him I would tell myself that he was amazing, for a seven year old. Narcissists are regressive. I'm too close to this. He seems like such a good guy. I half believe that I'm the bad guy here. What bliss it would be to live in a house without good and bad guys. You have really opened up my mind on this.

[R4VEN]

Originally Posted by Watersign

It never occurred to me he was a narcissist because he's so weak and victimy.

The narcissist I know is very weak and totally `victimy' - he has Mars in Pisces and Moon in Scorp, so he's always lashing out, but I've confronted him, and he avoids me - in his narcissistic `reality', I'm now `bad' and to be avoided, and I'm sure he believes I `can't be trusted'..

Consider also that your parents, as narcississts, had a lot of power over you growing up, and so you no doubt see them through a daughter's eyes, and this makes them appear more powerful than they actually are.
What you're seeing in this guy is the True Nature of a narcissist (and from this perspective this guy may be doing you a favour!!!); i.e. they are so weak and so insecure that they are very childlike at an emotional level. The narcissist I know can be talking away in his `adult' voice, all manipulation and lies and big words, and then when confronted he becomes either a screaming raging crazy person, or a ``poor me - how could you say that to me?' type of victim. All his many sides see him trapped emotionally at around 8 years of age - this guy is 52. And he will not change, because for him to admit that he may have it all wrong means that he'll have to admit to himself that his whole life - including his story about his childhood - is one big fabrication.

As I see it, narcissists are also sociopaths - i.e. they have no empathy, no love, and no capacity for `normal' emotions. This is why it is so difficult to work out their motives, their behaviour - they do not march to the drummer most of us hear, because they have their own personal drummer, one with a syncopated rhythm only they can hear.

PS: And counseling will not help them becaause they always know better, or else they are very afraid of any change to their reality, so they reject the advice or insights of others.

[Watersign]

great hearing from you r4ven. Can you see personality disorders on a chart? I definitely believed he had borderline and the personality disorders are for the most part in the same neighborhood as each other. I can't believe I didn't see this.

[R4VEN]

Originally Posted by Watersign

great hearing from you r4ven. Can you see personality disorders on a chart? I definitely believed he had borderline and the personality disorders are for the most part in the same neighborhood as each other. I can't believe I didn't see this.

For me, I `pick up' personality disorders in others through a kind of `vibe'. In the person of whom I speak in my above posts, the first time I met him I felt something weird about him, in that the words he spoke had no feeling behind them, and they were just words, and he seemed to be trying to create something - i.e. manipulate me - with the words. It was almost like he was reading lines from a book. For me, that's a dead-set red flag, but if you've grown up around this, then it may be harder to identify.

Some things I notice on Ga's chart, which are not absolute indicators, but together they can lead to something weird in the personality, are:
Neptune squ Mars:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astro...quare-mars.php
Neptune inconj ASC
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astro...-ascendant.php
Pluto inconj ASC
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astro...-ascendant.php

On their own, each of these aspects are not a drama, but together I'm sure they play havoc with his sense of himself in a relationship with anyone at all. Also, I mentioned above about Mars in Pisces. I have found this in so many men who seem to have to prove themselves, or else who check out through drugs and/or alcohol.


As I see it, the self-deluding nature of those with extremes of personality points directly to Neptune. Ga's group of planets in Pisces in the 11th are where I first went in search of answers. His Venus placement - squaring Uranus - is also not a good `healthy relationship' aspect, but can still be worked with in someone who has a balaced chart in other ways.

[wilsontc]

sign,

You asked:

Originally Posted by Watersign

So I wonder if I'm wrong or right. He can confuse me. Is that the power of neptune?...I keep reading the following over and over. I can't follow it....isn't the one aspect to the saturn/jupiter conjunction?...Can you tell me why a Moon with aspects to saturn/jupiter would indicate this?

Yes, Neptune indicates the deception/confusion. Yes, it is the ONE aspect to the Saturn conjunct Jupiter. I consider conjunctions and stelliums as ONE energy (instead of as a whole lot of energies). So if a planet one and only one aspect to a conjunction or stellium, I call that ONE connection (instead of a whole lot of connections). So the issues isn't because the connection is to any particular planet (e.g., Moon in aspect to Saturn conjunct Jupiter), it is because there is only ONE connection to the planet. That creates a very SMALL connection which the person is barely aware of. So they aren't that aware of the energy of this planet and they OVERdo things. This effect is like what happens when a person has an UNaspected planet. More about unaspected planets here:
http://wiki.astro.com/astrowiki/en/Unaspected_Planet

Explaining,

Tim

[Watersign]

r4ven,

Thanks so much for all the links you put in the chart. You have truly mirrored to me what is going on over here but I feel you have added a whole lot of clarity. The aspects together that he has are troublesome for him. He is a genuinely tragic soul. That's part of why the victim persona carries weight with me. Now you have shown me that he has serious narcissism empathy issues. I knew this but I did KNOW this. He isn't the typical bragging type but he's incredibly arrogant. It's the old story that you don't see things when they're right in front of your face. The link you sent me about narcissism was amazing. It really went beyond the typical dsm story into the day to day ins and outs of the situation.

Tim,
Thank you for explaining the fact that you see one link to a conjunct energy as one aspect only. I really scratch my head at what a Saturn/jupiter conjunct means. I get that Saturn is limits and jupiter is expanion etc. Since on the superficial level (where I am unfortunately) they seem to just negate each other. I really need to read the forum a whole lot more to learn from you all. Can you tell me, what is the energy of a Saturn/Jupiter conjunct in your experience?

Once again, I have loved this thread. You all have strengthened my resolve to gently, humanely push this fellow out of my house. Boy R4ven, that narcissism site was right. With a narcissist it's weird/fake okay or downright awful.

[wilsontc]

sign,

You asked:

Originally Posted by Watersign

Can you tell me, what is the energy of a Saturn/Jupiter conjunct in your experience?

Saturn is energy of restriction and structure while Jupiter is the energy of expansion and opportunity. A conjunction "combines" the two energies. So restriction combines with expansion. The result can be an "up and down" situation of high highs and low lows. If a person faces the issues they can, over time, learn how to "balance things out" so the highs aren't quite so high and the lows aren't quite so low. But if they don't want to handle the challenges of this combination an "up and down" result is more common.

Up and down,

Tim