moon opp pluto in composite chart

Hi there everyone, I'm new here and I'm posting because of a relationship problem of um....mine.

We have moon opp pluto in the composite chart but nice Venus/Jupiter links and also Sun Moon Conj.

My understanding is that is that the moon pluto thing leads to control, manipulation and lots of jealousy and that seems to be exactly whats happening.

Has anyone had experience of this and how do you deal with it? I don't want to lose the relationship but I also don't want to be controlled.

Me Cancer, Sag Asc, Pis moon.
She Pisces, Sag Asc, Ari moon.

Seventhsun, are you here talking about a Synastry chart or a Composite chart? if you encounter the problems you describe, it could well be seen in the Synastry chart. Should you show these traits in public but in reality things are actually not as bad as they seem, then it is a composite chart.

A composite chart shows how you and your girlfriend, or partner show yourselves to the outside world or how the others perceive you as a couple. There is a great difference.

You can (and that is what I always do) just look at the two charts separately and you will see which one of the two is the dominating, manipulative or jealous one of the two. Or maybe one of you is jealous, the other dominant. Then try to figure out why your girlfriend(or yourself) do this. Jealousy and being dominant dont come from nowhere. It is a result of your upbringing and relationship with people who were important in your life (could even be your teacher! or your nanny, brother or sister, not always your parents). Then talk about it with your partner. Good communication, explaining what bothers you etc. is what will help overcome these problems.

I can immediately see that your Moons are incompatible. Hers in Pisces, your Moon in Aries. Water and Fire. Stephen Arroyo writes that no matter how compatible the rest of a synastry between two people is, when the Moons are not compatible, then this will always be a source of discomfort , even after years and years of marriage. Moon shows where you emotionally feel at best, safe. She feels safe when out on the town and taking the initiative, going places and taking risks, your Moon likes staying home more. Because it rules your Ascendant it works even stronger in your chart.
Thing is that Pisces Moons are very romantic and with Cancer Sun, very caring as well.

A Sun Pisces is less of a romantic than a Pisces Moon, but more illusive and often not very sure about own identity and what they want to do.

The Aries Moon can be very self centered and egoistic, likes to take the initiative, acts on emotional impulse. Pisces Moon is usually much more balanced but can be at times in an emotional turmoil.

Having the same Ascendants is very nice, but look at the rulers. Where is your Jupiter, where is hers? Which sign and house? That shows how you present yourselves. Your Venusses show what you like. If they are in conflicting elements, then you also get a problem there. One likes this, the other likes that.

Mercuries are most important to look at! How does she relate to you and you to her. How are your Mercuries aspected and how are they aspecting one another? different elements, again, different points of opinion. Mercury in Taurus can be terribly stubborn, one in Gemini much more flexible, one in Scorpio might not want to say everything he or she feels. Look at those as well.

Your Jupiter-Venus and Sun-Moon conjunctions can make a lot good of course.

Hope this helps.
Good luck, Starlink

It's funny, cause i'm pieces sun, asc sag and moon aries.

We also have moon & sun opposite pluto in our composite. So strange

ME: 19 feb 1969, 02.18 am in Malmö sweden

Hello Starlink and Gerdehagge, thanks for your replies!

OK - the moon/pluto opp is in the composite chart whereas the sun/moon is in the synastry along with some other nice things too.

Anyway here are our natals and the composite courtesy of astrodienst (mines at the bottom).

What you say Starlink about the difference between syn and comp charts was interesting. from the outside our friends would say we're actually crazy - basically we both give the image of being jealous and manipulative.

However, considering what you say about looking at the charts individually I looked and found that she has the moon/pluto opp in her natal as in the comp chart. Of course I'm not totally innocent with what you can see is a fair smattering of planets in water signs. I think I am also a little bossy - I have a bit of a power job and get to make a lot of decisions. Sometimes she likes my masculinity and other times she thinks I'm too macho (!!!!!

Its a bit disappointing to read about the moon compatibilities. I find her a bit overbearing sometimes which isn't helped by her mars/ASC. As I've told her she can be very Amazonian (although sometimes thats part of her charm). She does think that she is a bit of a homebody although she was in her "youth" a face on the clubscene here (and a pretty one at that). I think she has a Moon/IC contact which supports the homebody thing I guess?

An important thing that I feel from her moon is that she's happiest when she is coming up with solutions to problems - DEFINING outcomes. Of course my Cancer side likes to do that without too much help.

I'm curious what you think about that and also the jupiter positions. especially hers. I guess our Venus's aren't going to see eye to eye but mercurys' look good no? I'm especially curious about anyones interpretations of her chart (top) as I want to understand her better.

Thanks again for your help - wish I'd found the forum sooner as I'm learning a lot from reading the other threads!

s

Hello Seventhsun, thanks for the feedback. As you also said, the Mercuries are perfectly in harmony which is a great plus because you can basically talk about mutual problems. I believe in communication as being the only thing that in the end, really can help in relationship problems.

However, there is a problem here also. Your Mercury squares your Uranus and hers squares Jupiter and because both are rulers of your 7th houses, this determines the way relationships work out in your lives. Uranus and Jupiter are very restless and freedomloving planets. Transits through the 7th house by Jupiter or Uranus can have an impact on the existing natal aspects. Especially the Mercury-Jupiter square shows a dislike of a final commitment.

Maybe the trine between your two Mercuries shows that you are both in accordance with living an open relationship, no clinging, no marriage, that I dont know of course.

Your Jupiters, interesting. Hers conjunct the Asc. and on the 12th house side, but interpreted as being in the 1st, in Sagittarius. Very strong, very optimistic, very future orientated and a bit too much at times with that square to her Sun and trine her Moon (overenthousiastic).

Your Jupiter, much different. It is in an Earth sign, so by sign your Jupiters are not compatible. Earth and Fire is more difficult than than Water and Fire.
You have an opposition to your Moon, actually a creative aspect. You might at times question the importance of your own abilities which affects your selfconfidence.

Both Jupiters are in psychic houses (12th and 8th) but you are definitively the worrier of the two.

I have to give you a subtile warning about her. She has both modern and traditional rulers of Ascendant and her Sun in the 12th house of hidden things/selfundoing (using of drugs or medicines is sometimes seen with placements like this). She also has a Mutual Reception by houserules between house 1 and 12. Apart from the above mentioned this can also point to strong intuition and sensitivity. She could easily feel hurt and is very sensitive to criticism.

Neptune squares her Mercury. She keeps things hidden, does not tell you everything she thinks and the Mercury-Jupiter square can tell tales which are very believable (she almost believes them herself!) but which you should take with a grain of salt at times. Especially also because Mercury and Sun are both in her 3rd house and ruler Uranus unaspected.

You are very lenient (Jupiter opposed to Moon) but please be careful, dont believe everything.

Of course these aspects can also be great when writing poems, music or books. They are potentially creative aspects.

She has a difficult aspect T-square between Mars, Pluto and Moon. She needs a lot of attention which probably was not given to her (or too much given= spoiled) in her childhood. This can create problems for her as she can be very dominant and sometimes quite childish in her behavior, subtly manipulative (Pluto-Moon).

Gerdahagge and Seventhsun, just something you should know. It is always better to use a Synastry chart, not a Composite when looking at how two people interact.

The Synastry shows how you both really are with one another, a Composite shows how you show yourself to the outside world (mostly you behave well in front of others, so to give a positive impression of your relationship).

So if you are really fighting a lot in a relationship (generally speaking), this shows in the Synastry, but the Composite can show a wonderful aspect, because you and your partner will do your best to not show the difficult aspects between you (disharmony) to friends and others.

Maybe you DO show your disharmony to others, in that case you will also see it in the Synastry. Sometimes people get a negative impression from looking at a couple (like the couple does not hold hands or hugs one another in public) but in their private sphere, they do show their love openly. In this case the composite could show emotional restraint.

So always look at a Synastry chart for clues to the relationship.

Thanks Starlink. Thats all very interesting information!

About the chart types. Astrodienst somewhere mentions that the comp chart is about how a relationship evolves and this I'd noticed in previous relationships also- Basically the problems shown there became the problems in the relationship.

The thing I notice here after your suggestion to look at the natals is that Moon/Pluto contact. So basically its her problem? (not that I want to say it like that :/

The reality is I think she is very jealous and also very inquisitive. She wants to know all the details and is often then disappointed with my answers. I try to be honest but not hurtful. Unfortunately she always feels wounded and then retaliates by giving me too much information (and then accusing me of being jealous).

Anyway - i see what you say in your analysis of the natals. There are places where we don't see eye to eye. But would you say there is anything really terminal? Is the relationship capable of lasting?? Our problem is that its a very Love/Hate relationship. And I put this down mainly to her insecurity tho she blames me (yes it does feel like she's projecting). Is it her fire signs and planets that make her so forceful and direct? Its like her firesigns are asking the questions and her water signs don't like the answers if that makes sense? Perhaps thats what you mean with the "self undoing"? very interesting.

According to her forecast on astrodienst she has Pluto SQ Moon until Nov. The interpretation (Robert Hand?) includes this:In your personal life, this influence can bring an emotional power struggle with someone. Such a struggle can be quite destructive, because the tactics are very subversive, perhaps including manipulation of guilt, jealousy or sense of duty. You will not attempt to wield power directly and nakedly, which your opponent could fight easily. It takes extremely clear perception to see exactly what is happening.
This influence also may signify a relationship in which you feel fascinated by the other person, even though you feel that the relationship is bad for you. You seem unable to get away. Actually you are experiencing a repressed aspect of yourself through the other person.


I have Saturn SQ ASC until August:
The demands of your work or the demands of your personal life will force you to reevaluate which relationships in your life are worth keeping and which are not.

Should we just let go? We both find it extremely difficult to do so.

Many many thanks once again.

s

btw - I don't know if its the "done thing" to ask such things on the forum but if anyone would like to contact me via pm about a consultation I'd appreciate it very much. need a bit of guidance right now.

Hi Seventhsun, thanks for the answers. I believe that if a relationship, even before marriage, requires so much work and involves now already jealous scenes etc. it will only get worse later.
What is written here is very very true!

This influence also may signify a relationship in which you feel fascinated by the other person, even though you feel that the relationship is bad for you. You seem unable to get away. Actually you are experiencing a repressed aspect of yourself through the other person.

Click to expand...

I do think you should think things over really well. Living with a very insecure, jealous person, no matter how sweet and attractive, can become a real burden lateron.

Should we just let go? We both find it extremely difficult to do so.

Click to expand...

I can very well understand this.

Is it her fire signs and planets that make her so forceful and direct?

Click to expand...

Fire signs are always direct, but I think it is more the T-square she is struggling with and you are the nearest dearest and you know, they always get the hit on the head first

She has the ruler of her 1st house, Jupiter, in square aspect to Mercury, the ruler of the 7th house, so she will always, not only with you, but also with others, have a problem because of her insecurity. If she were to get another man after you, same thing will happen. It will only stop if she can get to terms with her inner demons, of which she has quite a few with her Moon, ruler of her 8th house, opposed to Pluto and conjunct Chiron in her 4th house of early upbringing.

Perhaps a little more research and study into natal charts and synastry
http://cafeastrology.com/synastry/interchartaspects.html

Composite charts
If you go to www.astro.com click on free horoscopes, go to Interactive horoscopes, go down to Astroclick partner, that will bring up a composite chart and when you put the mouse over a planet will bring up a pop up box with the interpretation......

But you do need both times of birth to be accurate though.. enjoy.

Composites describe the relationship, not either one of you, but what you came together to learn or to do and how the 'pair of you' function when together....

"If she were to get another man after you, same thing will happen. It will only stop if she can get to terms with her inner demons, of which she has quite a few with her Moon, ruler of her 8th house, opposed to Pluto and conjunct Chiron in her 4th house of early upbringing."

Then I guess thats what I have to do. Thanks for your help. I used your suggestion to investigate more deeply in this direction and already came up with sth very interesting.

http://www.nodeorama.com/viewtopic.php?id=2272

thanks again!

s

Seventhsun, glad to hear it. Her Moon-Chiron conjunction could tell you a tale or two! Link was interesting for me to read as well. Thanks!

Starlink

I wrote an post a while ago about what (in my opinion would break a relationship)

Here is one of my post's with lots of info http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=13745



There has just been a rather interesting thread in GL on composites that may interest you
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15261

Hi there astrologer50. Thanks for those links - unfortunately the 1st doesn't seem to work. Can you fix it?

The 2nd was interesting and after reading Mathews blog about the two psycho's I'm beginning to wonder if my life isn't in fact fine as it is. Thats a very interesting post in all.

I've been using astrodienst for some time now - about 7 years or more and used the composite reading very often. Its good stuff - I also have the Robert Hand book - planets in transit, which is great (amongst others of course)

as for my gf well she's latched on to the idea that I'm to blame and seems to ignore her jealousy - its heavy - very heavy but she refuses to address it - we even started counselling... :/

I'm sure as Starlink says the moon/pluto/chiron link is the clue and the mercury/jupiter link is exactly as described - she believes her own tales thats for sure.

She has a strange relationship with her family - her sister has banned her from seeing her neice and her mother is fremdscheu - her mother doesn't go near other people. she doesn't go out at all. my gf is stunning but as a child her mother told her she didn't earn her looks so she shouldn't rely on them. She says she had a very nice upbringing, very sheltered and loving.

starlink said:

Gerdahagge and Seventhsun, just something you should know. It is always better to use a Synastry chart, not a Composite when looking at how two people interact.

The Synastry shows how you both really are with one another, a Composite shows how you show yourself to the outside world (mostly you behave well in front of others, so to give a positive impression of your relationship).

So if you are really fighting a lot in a relationship (generally speaking), this shows in the Synastry, but the Composite can show a wonderful aspect, because you and your partner will do your best to not show the difficult aspects between you (disharmony) to friends and others.

Maybe you DO show your disharmony to others, in that case you will also see it in the Synastry. Sometimes people get a negative impression from looking at a couple (like the couple does not hold hands or hugs one another in public) but in their private sphere, they do show their love openly. In this case the composite could show emotional restraint.

So always look at a Synastry chart for clues to the relationship.

Click to expand...

Starlink,

I agree with your distinction between composite charts and synastry comparisons. There is one thing I would add to it though. It seems like, the longer a couple has been married, or lived together, the more accurate the composite reading becomes. Imo, the composite 'takes on a life of it's own'- if a couple has been an entity for 10 or 20 or 30 years.

For example, in the OP's composite, he speaks of the moon /pluto opposition
in the composite chart. And he mentioned that their friends have described them as 'crazy.' Looking at the natals and the synastry, we saw his girlfriends difficulty with jealousy, and her inability to see it or control it at this point. If the composite chart 'LIVED" for 20 years, then 'crazy' would perhaps be a shared description , because of the years of dealing with that kind of emotional drama.

So at this point it is important to look at what each individual can do and learn in counseling, so the highest meaning of moon opposed pluto can be revealed.

I have also had success with progressed composites, because thankfully, even our relationships change and grow .

Hello katydid. Would I be right in thinking that this is not going to be a healthy rs for me/us? I was hoping to help her thro it but this much mistrust is extremely demoralising. It's sapping my energy daily.

Does the compsite show me as failing?

seventhsun said:

Hello katydid. Would I be right in thinking that this is not going to be a healthy rs for me/us? I was hoping to help her thro it but this much mistrust is extremely demoralising. It's sapping my energy daily.

Does the compsite show me as failing?

Click to expand...

SeventhSun,
To see the outcome you would have to do progressions on the composite, and see how things play out. So I am not prepared to answer based upon the composite now.

However, I am going to 'paste' something below and I want you to re-read it;




"She has a strange relationship with her family - her sister has banned her from seeing her neice and her mother is fremdscheu - her mother doesn't go near other people. she doesn't go out at all. my gf is stunning but as a child her mother told her she didn't earn her looks so she shouldn't rely on them. She says she had a very nice upbringing, very sheltered and loving."

The final sentence in the above paragraph is a red flag for me, and seems to really express the moon/pluto opposition. You list the things which would seem to show that she had a pretty dysfunctional family life, not allowed near her niece, her mother is hyper-phobic, and was emotionally abusive and jealous of your gf's beauty, BUT SOMEHOW IN HER MIND HER CHILDHOOD WAS NICE, LOVING AND SHELTERED.
To me this indicates that because of her Plutonian Mothers twisted jealousy, and her phobias, your gf may confuse 'jealousy' with 'love,' and 'controlling behavior' with 'nurturing.' The only way to accept that her mother was a loving, safe mom, is to see her jealous, oppressive nature as LOVE.

I am way oversimplifying her emotional behavior of course. But if I was going to just look at the Moon/Pluto, as it is the backbone of the composite, then I would see that as the bigger picture. I would never say, just by looking at the chart , if it was something you could or couldn't work through. Imo, that is something that is only 'knowable' after seeing what happens when you both work on the issues. Counseling is a great plan, and if she seems to be opening up to her Pluto concerns with counseling, then it could be a great, TRANSFORMATIVE relationship. :56:

Seventhsun, I said:

She needs a lot of attention which probably was not given to her (or too much given= spoiled) in her childhood.

Click to expand...

You said:

She says she had a very nice upbringing, very sheltered and loving

Click to expand...

So I guess she was spoiled then quite a bit and now she expects everything to go her way. Having the ruler of your 4th house in your 1st house always shows a person who is very influenced by her upbringing. The squares to her Mars do show friction and anger within the family and in this case especially with the mother as Pluto as well as the Moon are seen as symbols for the mother, so if you write:

her mother told her she didn't earn her looks so she shouldn't rely on them.

Click to expand...

then I think that this has gotten stuck very much in her mind and given her a strong feeling of inadequacy and making her so insecure.

katydid said:

SeventhSun,
BUT SOMEHOW IN HER MIND HER CHILDHOOD WAS NICE, LOVING AND SHELTERED.
To me this indicates that because of her Plutonian Mothers twisted jealousy, and her phobias, your gf may confuse 'jealousy' with 'love,' and 'controlling behavior' with 'nurturing.' The only way to accept that her mother was a loving, safe mom, is to see her jealous, oppressive nature as LOVE.

Click to expand...

I have to say I find that analysis outstanding. But I don't know the full facts. My gf is unfortunately descending beyond any barrier of normality even with the counselling and just putting all the blame onto me. Strange thing is she knows she has issues but each time we try to focus in on them she rounds on me and tells me I should sort my problems - I get angry when she accuses me of stuff that isn't happening so she says I have temper issues.
Um... so no she isn't really opening up to her pluto issues unfortunately....

as you said Starlink she believes her own tales...
Also I tell her often how lovely she is but whenever I do that she's very dismissive as though she doesn't believe it rather than that she's heard it so often before. I'd really love to know if it was too little or too much attention she got. She speaks fondly of her grandpa but not so of her grandma...

I'd be curious to know HOW I contribute to this rs - she says she has always ended her previous rs's but this time I've done the walking away (we break up a LOT!)