The Nature of a Square

[danieycc]

Hello.

I have several Virgo/Sagittarius squares in my natal chart.

Sun-Virgo Square Saturn-Sagittarius

Sun-Virgo Square Uranus-Sagittarius

Venus-Virgo Square Uranus-Sagittarius

Mars-Virgo Square Saturn-Sagittarius

Sun,Venus, and Mars all in the 6th

Saturn and Uranus in the 9th


Anyway, I been wondering the true nature of squares between the signs.
How are the Qualities of Virgo in conflict with those of Sagittarius, since this seems to be a big conflict theme in my chart.

Sometimes I can understand other squares, like Aquarius square Scorpio is easy for me to understand, but for some reason I can't seem to get an objective enough perspective on my own Virgo/Sagittarius Squares.

I'd also like to understand how house 6 and 9 are in conflict.

It's strange, I cant seem to do a very good interpretation of my own chart sometimes. Maybe it's the Mercury-Neptune square trippin me up.

Thank youuuu!!! Feedback is highly apprieciated.

[person did not provide an astrological interpretation so moved to Greenhorns Lounge - Moderator]

[katydid]

I know 2 couples very well, that had strong squares between their virgo stelliums and their sag stelliums. My virgo brother has been married twice to the SAME sag. And my daughter, who is a gemini, with sag rising, has a boyfriend with a lot of virgo personal planets.

Sometimes you can see the signs played out more clearly in relationships.

My virgo brother has been with his wife for 20 years , on and off. Even when they were apart, they were connected by their daughters. My brothers virgo stellium made him the kids caretaker. When they separated for 2 years, his wife felt the pull from her sag sun, merc, mars and saturn. She took a 2 year sabbatical from her teaching job and moved to Milan to 'find herself.'
Her virgo husband kept the home fires burning and nurtured the kids enough to keep them feeling okay about the situation.
She confided in me that part of her need for space, was the constant criticism she felt coming from him. She wanted to be on her own, to study art history, and write her masters thesis. She truly doubted her abilities as a wife and mother partly because his virgo-ness nit picked at times. He was a very traditional, and a homebody. She was more spontaneous, and liked things to be fun and more carefree. She didn't mind if the girls wanted pancakes for dinner sometimes---she even took them out of school for adventures to paint in the mountains for the day.
That bothered his virgo sensibilities, and he thought that they needed security and a routine, to help them succeed in their future jobs. While he was pretty strict about their chores and their allowance, she thought they should be free to be children, and to let their imaginations soar while it was possible.
I was caught in the middle, because I think they were both right. And their daughters both had a lot of Gemini and Leo, so they have gained from both of their parents points of view.

So when I see that sag/virgo square I think of my brother and my sister in-law. They have reconciled, by finding a nice balance. He stopped being so
critical, because he was truly happy to have her back home. And he made sure that she knew that. And she stopped looking at the grass so far from home, and seeing it as greener. She was happy to be back with her family, and she brought that enthusiasm back home with her.

In a natal chart, it sometimes plays out in that same way. We tend to be too critical or nitpicky in the virgo area of our chart, and get lost in the details.
The Sag part pulls us away, to get the bigger picture,an overview, but we may get too sloppy here, and exaggerate our abilities , and drop the ball. We need to find a balance between the two. A way to practice,to work on something and become competent, but not to obsess or over do it. To find pride in our abilities, but not to put too fine a focus upon it.

My sag sister has accepted my brothers kind of 'neurotic' need for certain explicit details--but has given him the responsibility for them. He is the one to make the dressing at Thanksgiving, and now everyone is happy. He has stopped expecting others to notice every little thing. And she has stopped urging him to 'sell everything' and go on a trip around the world. She realizes that she doesn't really want to do that, but she does take the time and oppty to travel more-and she enjoys it without feeling guilty.

[freedomlover]

Danieycc,

I think katydid made a most excellent post, which probably hit upon alot of issues that Virgo/Sag encounters.

However, I will give some "in generals" for you to ponder upon:

Virgo not only has to do with service, but also: details ( as katydid pointed out), discernment and choices, slave mentality,purity, and perfection/perfectionism

Sagittarius not only represents getting out of service ( as katydid mentioned) but also: belief systems,your conscience, other people's expectations, judgments, and assumptions they make of you, other people making decisions for you.

Try mixing and matching some of those Virgo/Sag terms, and see if anything rings a bell.

Sagittarius is also noted for being associated with religion. A Virgo/Sag combination is notorious for being associated with religious perfectionism. It can denote a religious zealot who is obsessed with perfect adherence to the rules, and who believes in an angry God if they do not.

On the physical side: Virgo/Sag issues also point to a need to purify the body ( Sag rules liver, where anger is stored in the body) Virgo/Sag point to the body being healthy (Virgo) and getting exercised (Sag).

The square would point to some challenge in getting the two energies to "get along/cooperate".

Hope that helps,

FL

[katydid]

Sagittarius is also noted for being associated with religion. A Virgo/Sag combination is notorious for being associated with religious perfectionism. It can denote a religious zealot who is obsessed with perfect adherence to the rules, and who believes in an angry God if they do not.
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This is very good example of the potential conflict between the 2 signs.
My Virgoan Brother, who has the sun, moon and mercury all conjunct in Virgo, had a very strict view concerning the kids attending church, even though he himself 'doubted' the tenants of his religion. He was pretty sure it was a bunch of crock, but felt it was good for the girls to go every Sunday
and so he demanded they all do so. He told his wife that the girls could make their own minds up when they were older.
His sag wife felt it was 'wrong' to force their church on the girls, and wanted to let them pursue some of the religions she had been looking into herself.
She was studying Buddhism a little, and thought the girls should be introduced to the concepts.
The biggest battles they had during their separation, and even before,were about religion, and what to teach their daughters about . She felt it was ridiculous to take them to a church that neither of them really believed in anymore, and he felt it was a good habit and tradition for them to have as their foundation, before they expand into other alternative ideas.

Now that both of their girls are young adults, the Leo is still involved in her childhood church, and the Gemini is very 'spiritual', but not in a religious way.

[danieycc]

Thanks for the answers so far. I think Im starting to get it, and the real life examples have been helpful. I even wrote about my conflicts with cleaning my room last night which seems very virgo/sag also.

"Scattering my energies; going from one pile to the next. Getting a bunch of projects started all at once, and then getting fixated and analysing one object for a long time; Becoming distracted and not cleaning.

Glancing at myself in the mirror to make sure my skin is all right (i've been having skin problems ever since saturn started transiting my 6th house, sooo annoying) and going to the kitchen to get another glass of water (virgo 6th)
Then going on my computer and getting lost in a world of research/astrology. (sag. 9th) . "

That helped me.. but for some reason even though I can see these smaller examples, im still having a hard time getting to the heart of it; and the huge way this duality affects my entire personality.

How does an opposition play into all of this?? Are signs that oppose each other truly opposite in quality?

If so.. then what are Squares?
Not opposites, but somehow just truly incompatible modes of being?

[freedomlover]

How does an opposition play into all of this?? Are signs that oppose each other truly opposite in quality?

If so.. then what are Squares?
Not opposites, but somehow just truly incompatible modes of being?

Danieycc,

It would probably be a good idea to post your chart. Most of us all pretty "visual" here. Also, that way, members can get a look at all of your aspects, and how they fit together. You can use "paint" to erase out your personal info.

I see squares as energies that can cause great conflict. Also, I sometimes think of the square like someone meeting a bully blocking the street they want to go down. (this works when you have a planet like Venus, square like, um Pluto.). You need to find a way to resolve the conflict, so the other planet is not blocked from expression. Also, sometimes the root of the square is two conflicting beliefs in your subconscious.

Oppositions are sorta similar, yes. Sometimes it is a "face-off". Sometimes the energies express as two planets that aren't getting along - so one is going one way and one is going the other - in other words, in opposite directions from each other. However, these are energies which are calling for balancing, since you are dealing with polarities. If the opposition is in Cancer/Cap, then you need to integrate a little Cap in your Cancer planet, and a little Cancer in your Cap planet.

Hope that made some sense.

FL

[Ali]

Originally Posted by danieycc

"Scattering my energies; going from one pile to the next. Getting a bunch of projects started all at once, and then getting fixated and analysing one object for a long time; Becoming distracted and not cleaning.

Glancing at myself in the mirror to make sure my skin is all right (i've been having skin problems ever since saturn started transiting my 6th house, sooo annoying) and going to the kitchen to get another glass of water (virgo 6th)
Then going on my computer and getting lost in a world of research/astrology. (sag. 9th) . "

The above is not so much a sign of a virgo/sag square as of a person with a lot of mutables in their chart. Mutables, while very flexible, can have trouble getting down to dealing with one thing. Everything sets them in a different direction. I suspect a square may worsen it a little -- because what is important to your virgo side (a neat bedroom) might be at odds with your Sag energy (debating as you clean the whole philosophic concept of whether having a neat bedroom is important or trivial. )

[katydid]

I think oppositions can be easier to balance out, because they are essentially the same things. They are 2 sides of the same polarity, they are opposites, which attract because they NEED each other to become whole. The way to perfect your Virgo-ness is to seek out your inner Pisces.

Squares on the other hand are often just nagging , annoying reminders of a different way of doing things or seeing things, but not necessarily the answer to your problems. You need to balance them out in your chart because they are there, needling you, but unlike oppositions, they are not polar opposites, uniting to become whole.

For example, oppositions unite elements which NEED each other. Water and Earth, Air and Fire. And the oppositions share the same modality. So to incorporate 'balanc'e when you are in the same mode, cardinal, fixed or mutable, and adding the 'balancing' element, fire to air, water to earth, is easier than what you are faced with in squares. Squares bring you incompatible elements , fire singes earth, water smothers fire, etc. , so it is more difficult to find a balance.

[freedomlover]

Originally Posted by katydid

I think oppositions can be easier to balance out, because they are essentially the same things. They are 2 sides of the same polarity, they are opposites, which attract because they NEED each other to become whole. The way to perfect your Virgo-ness is to seek out your inner Pisces.

Squares on the other hand are often just nagging , annoying reminders of a different way of doing things or seeing things, but not necessarily the answer to your problems. You need to balance them out in your chart because they are there, needling you, but unlike oppositions, they are not polar opposites, uniting to become whole.

For example, oppositions unite elements which NEED each other. Water and Earth, Air and Fire. And the oppositions share the same modality. So to incorporate 'balanc'e when you are in the same mode, cardinal, fixed or mutable, and adding the 'balancing' element, fire to air, water to earth, is easier than what you are faced with in squares. Squares bring you incompatible elements , fire singes earth, water smothers fire, etc. , so it is more difficult to find a balance.

Another most excellent post, katydid. I love the way you explain things so clearly and easy to understand. I was trying to say sort of the same thing in my post, but yours came out much better. I'm going to keep a copy of this post for my reference.

[danieycc]

Wellll here is my chart.. I couldn't figure out another way to post it yet.

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?c...rbp=&rs=0&ast=

hope that works.

Anyway
I love what you said FL...

"Also, sometimes the root of the square is two conflicting beliefs in your subconscious."

Thats helping me to see a bigger picture.

And Katy.. Yeahh that helps me distinguish between square and oppositions so much better.. the elements. Hmm. I guess now I'll just have to try to understand how earth and fire interact, and how they both get in each others way.

And aha! Mutability. A b!tch isn't it? Hahah that explains alot. And yes, the square does make it harder. Especially because I have such a strong desire to achieve at something (sun square saturn) and my efforts constantly get pulled off track. Very frustrating.

Anyway I cant tell you how helpful your answers have been so far. It's not like I just asked this on a whim; I've been really trying to understand this for a while. Hearing opinions from a different perspective give me so much more clarity.

[katydid]

And Katy.. Yeahh that helps me distinguish between square and oppositions so much better.. the elements. Hmm. I guess now I'll just have to try to understand how earth and fire interact, and how they both get in each others way.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fire 'scorches' the earth. Fire tends towards impatience, and dances around
the subject, 'cackling' forth insults or exaggerations that hurt the earth.

The earth shuts down, closes off, protecting itself, but also preventing any exchange of ideas or words. The earth often reacts by NOT reacting. Staying still, laying low, all of which frustrate the dynamic forceful fire energy.

If the two elements meet in a confrontation, fire puts on a great, boisterous show, and moves through on a rampage. But after all is said and done, the earth is still there, slightly singed, but only on top. Underneath all is fine, and NOTHING has really changed.

The fire element has gotten rid of the old deadwood, and given earth a real scare, and perhaps forced a new attitude in some ways. But after a wildfire, the earths vegetation just grows back in stronger.

[danieycc]

Thanks, that was a good analogy for me to play around with. After reading that I started thinking maybe even something like a volcano... I do notice a pattern where I start to feel very 'repressed' (definately earth) and then all of a sudden it builds up and explodes (fire)..
The calm 'do nothing' of the earth gets me into trouble, because it represses the fire. And yeah, I am a little scared of my fire (saturn and uranus) because my earth is very eager to please. (the surface) hmm.. these analogys definately help.

Maybe Earth/Fire squares really are mainly about repression. Very interesting.
Long placid periods with sudden bursts of impulse.