How Did You Determine Your Ascendant Sign?

[Arian Maverick]

This question is addressed to anyone who has only an approximate time of birth, or whose recorded time of birth leaves a small margin for error in determining the correct Ascendant sign.

Please note that it is not my intention to encourage members to haphazardly "guess" their Ascendant sign, particularly if the time of birth is unknown or if the possible range is several hours. I am also aware that the best solution to this dilemma is chart rectification performed a professional astrologer.

With these caveats aside, I am curious as to the manner in which members have decided upon one of two possible Ascendant signs, if their circumstance requires them to choose. What was the "clinching" factor--physical appearance, personal mannerisms, self-perception, personality, the impression others receive upon a first meeting with you? Or did you decide between two viable birth times by the placement of a planet in a particular house, such as an individual who feels his or her natal Mars manifests in the area of home/early environment (fourth house) rather than of communication (third house)? Did you modify your chart within a particular time range to reflect the prominant expression of a particular planet, especially one conjunct the Ascendant or Midheaven? If so, what qualities made you believe you have this particular natal placement?

I apologize for asking so many questions, but I am genuinely curious about others' experiences with this matter. Many long-time forum members, and perhaps some newer members who have read older threads, are aware of my eternal Ascendant dilemma. I've tried all kinds of rectification methods, including some experimental ones--the Tritune of Hermes, the Animodar Method of Rectification, transits/progressions of a few important life events, horary charts, asking questions of the Sabian Symbols' Oracle, determining which possible Sabian symbol describes me the best, etc. Yet there's always a small measure of doubt involved. Have you overcome this doubt, and if so, how?

I look forward to reading your responses.

Arian Maverick

[Leon]

I read that when you read those day to day AZZtrology horoscope readings you should use your Rising Sign rather than your Sun Sign. Daily horoscopes have a horrible accuracy to being with, but it's been dead right 4-5 times when I read the Leo horoscope.

I also used physical appearance, personal mannerisms, self-perception, personality, and the impressions others who casually acquaint with me gave.

Something of interest is that when a family member went to a fortune teller for me the fortune teller described my life in a way that fits the house cusp/planet placements that comes with my suspected Ascendant.

Try reflecting back on your life. Mars in my char without any birth time would be a weak planet, but the Rising sign I use shows Mars to be the most angular planet in my chart. I have plans to join the French military after I tie up some loose ends, THE FRENCH FOREIGN LEGION!

I find the way others receive you to be the most important factor in coming to a closing on your Ascendant. Had those random people not react like I'm a Leo I would still be stuck trying to figure out which rising sign.

[FleetingDasein]

Arian,

I believe you are already familiar with my story. I had a 30 minute time frame to work with. I very much feel like a Pisces rising and I do look and act the part. As for the degrees, the description of the last decan of pisces was spot on in my case. I put my time at 6:38pm which was the time my parents had originally given me but I will probably end up tweaking it just a little to move the Sun to the 7th house (6:20pm). I have always felt the sun's energies in both houses, so I'm not so sure what I should do.

All of the other planets remain in the same houses. I have not tried any other method of divination to figure out my ascendant. I'll probably never know the exact degree.

[lodals]

I was convinced my mom had given me the wrong birth time when I discovered I was Scorpio rising. I thought I was nothing like Scorpio - I'm the most amenable, placid person you could ever wish to meet.......until you rattle my cage! But it took someone else to point that out to me! The most compelling argument for me though was the Solar Arc progressions. I moved house and school at age 6, shown by by Moon to the IC, and then country through work, shown by the Sun to the MC.
So, my advice is, trust the Solar Arc progressions to the angles!

[waybread]

Arian, I have posted on a couple of threads about my skepticism about correctly guessing the rising sign without accurate data. I say this because I studied astrology for some time before I found my actual birth time on a kind of birth certificate printed by the suburb in which my parents lived when I was born. (I was born in a major city hospital.) I found it in my mother's papers after she died.

Before this happened a professional astrologer told me I looked like a Leo, and I had tried to recitify my own chart, coming up with Libra rising. Well, it turns out my rising sign is Virgo! So in terms of Leo, I do have the moon in Leo and a 5th house stellium. In terms of Libra, my AS is in a late degree of Virgo, so Libra wasn't far off. But still wrong. Yet prior to finding that birth document, I ate, drank, slept, &c. as though I actually had those other ascendants. The power of suggestion! Obviously other influences were coming through my personality and physical appearance from elsewhere in my chart.

My husband's birth time is unknown and apparently unknowable. I have tried to rectify his chart through means other than guessing his rising sign, such as seeing in which houses I think his planets should be placed. Then his AS becomes a kind of default position. But I don't take houses very seriously in his chart.

[gaer]

Arian,

As I've said before, I have zero ability to guess an AC from looks, but I have had some luck guessing from the Moon sign.

For example: years ago I was working out the chart of an aunt, my mother's sister. I knew her very well. Capricorn Sun. The Moon was in Scorpio until about 7 PM. I was *sure* that it had to be Sag, and the only three ACs from that time on were Leo, Virgo and Scorpio. She appeared to be one of the most extroverted people I've ever known. Loved parties, company, and most of all being the center of attention. And was known for being unable to keep a secret.

So I set her up as Leo AC, Neptune on AC, Moon in Sag. Later, we did get info from a birth certificate, and I was right.

The problem is that it is so rare to have such a small window (in this case only 5 hours) for a Moon change AND then later have a hunch verified.

[Natasha]

Uranus to the MC/IC or Ascendant / Decandant axis is my only guess as Uranus transits have a tendency to be spot on.
That being said if Mars come thru to make an exact hard aspect to the Uranus transit it could trigger the transit prematurely - maybe.
Otherwise other experts could advise other ideas

[Arian Maverick]

Arian, I have posted on a couple of threads about my skepticism about correctly guessing the rising sign without accurate data.

I agree with your skepticism to a certain degree; hence, the caveats at the beginning of this post

Before this happened a professional astrologer told me I looked like a Leo, and I had tried to recitify my own chart, coming up with Libra rising. Well, it turns out my rising sign is Virgo! So in terms of Leo, I do have the moon in Leo and a 5th house stellium. In terms of Libra, my AS is in a late degree of Virgo, so Libra wasn't far off. But still wrong. Yet prior to finding that birth document, I ate, drank, slept, &c. as though I actually had those other ascendants. The power of suggestion! Obviously other influences were coming through my personality and physical appearance from elsewhere in my chart.

This might belong in another thread, but you don't need to inform me of the power of suggestion.

I did not fully understand the importance of an accurate time of birth when I first began my astrological studies, so I did not endeavor to check my birth certificate. This seems like an obvious mistake now, but I was studying astrology covertly at the time, and I did not wish to draw attention to my new interest. For several weeks I waited for an appropriate moment in conversation to pose the question of my time of birth. I received a birth time that seemed accurate--it was not rounded to the nearest hour or half-hour, and my mother stated it with less than a second's hesitation. I naively trusted her information, and I cast my chart with the time she provided. It gave me an Aquarius Ascendant.

I read through every description I could find of this Ascendant sign, and I thought it suited me perfectly. Finally, I had an explanation for my independence, inner rebelliousness, and quirky habits! I registered to the forums as Aquarian Maverick as a tribute to the Aqurius Ascendant description on the first astrology site I encountered. This was the sentence that inspired me, or rather, the sentence that contained the word that inspired me: You can become high-strung and unpredictable, thinking of yourself as a maverick. Even the Sabian symbol for the Ascendant degree fit me well, and I had no reason to question the time of birth I had been given.

To make this already-long story a bit shorter, I inquired about my father's time of birth on his birthday; when neither of my parents remembered, I requested to see his birth certificate. My mother retrieved my brother's birth certificate by mistake, and I was horrified to see the time of birth she had given me printed unmistakably on the small paper. I forgot my secrecy and asked to see my own birth certificate, knowing that the odds were slim that we were both born at the same hour and minute. Sure enough, there was a different time of birth printed there, one which gave me an early Aries Acendant. I immediately felt this was wrong, but I no longer trusted my impressions.

It turns out that Uanus is prominant in my natal chart; it's conjunct my Midheaven within four degrees and forms an extremely tight square to my natal Moon. That Moon is conjunct my Ascendant, which may partially explain why I was so impressionable.

I apologize for that long spiel, but yes, I understand how easy it is to acquire the characteristics of particular sign.

My husband's birth time is unknown and apparently unknowable. I have tried to rectify his chart through means other than guessing his rising sign, such as seeing in which houses I think his planets should be placed. Then his AS becomes a kind of default position. But I don't take houses very seriously in his chart.

I do the same with my parents' natal charts, as neither of their birth certificates list their time of birth.

I've wandered a bit farther from the original topic than I desired, but I believe this story is relevant in some ways...

In the mean time, please keep the responses coming!

Arian Maverick

[gaer]

Arian,

In this environment it's all but impossible to get impressions of how people appear or seem, when you first meet them.

You have an absolute "Aries-knockout-punch" in your chart. Most people say that Sun/Moon in the same sign is very strong, then to have a couple personal planets there too—that's a lot.

So here is my question: with all that Aries, with no water (not counting Chiron and asteroids), why do I always pick up so much gentleness? Where is it coming from? Can you explain it? Because that's always been my impression. You don't seem tactless, rash, impatient, or many other things that I associate with the *negative* side of Aries. Part of that might be the purity of the sign in your chart. I'm not quite sure how it works out when one sign is so highly accented. It may be that we pick up more of the positive.

But my Gemini Sun and Aquarius Moon wife is one of the gentlest people I've ever met. She is sharp, witty, and she has a very barbed sense of humor, but *no one* gets to see it except people she trusts and really clicks with. She has Pisces AC.

So here is my question: if you ask your closest friends to describe their FIRST impression of you, is there any consensus? I'm highly Libran. I hate fights, I want everyone to get along, I do see every side of things, and it can take me years to make up my mind about things that are important to me. Sure, this is colored by Scorpio (Mercury, Mars) and Leo (Venus), and I'm less Libran by planets in Libra than you are Arian (from planets in Aries), but for a long time it angered me that people, again and again, picked up Virgo, my AC. When people meet me, they describe me as aloof, cautious, quiet, serious, and so on. This is not (perhaps) nearly as noticeable in this environment (where we are just names and words, at least at first), but for me it is true.

And this Virgo side of me, what I project, is not just a lie, something I hide behind, a facade. It does color everything I do. It's part of me.

So what do people see first when they meet you? Aries? Or Pisces? And does what people feel, when they first meet you, often surprise you, later, when they tell you about that first impression? I actually have to make a *huge* effort not to project my AC (the negative parts) and instead project the Libran energy, especially when I'm working, because it can really push people away.

[gaer]

Originally Posted by Olivia

Gaer, if you do temperament in charts (and methods could be as varied as houses, so I don't want to get into a war!), then you were probably born close to a new moon - Sun and Moon in Aries, right?

No. Sun and Moon in Libra. I think you did not notice that my birth data is in my signature.

I have Sun and Moon in Taurus, and don't fit the typical Taurus description much at all - I wish I was better with money! But by temperament I'm almost entirely sanguine, which does fit.

Then your whole chart will reflect that. I was talking specifically about Arian's chart, the whole thing.

Temperament is the framework within which you operate, so it's a good idea to have a look at it to see how aspects are going to manifest. I haven't found that simply divvying up the number of planets by element works terribly well to determine it, either

(I'm not doing that…)

- you need to look at the Sun, Moon, and Ascendant closely, and other planets I usually do by triplicity and orientality or occidentality. It seems to work, even if it's a bit of a hotch-potch, but there are other methods, too, like in Lilly's Christian Astrology.

Have you read the rest of the thread? I think you're making rather large assumptions about me that are just not correct!

[gaer]

Originally Posted by Olivia

Sorry, Gaer - didn't mean to imply that you personally were just divvying up planets by element!

SOFTWARE often does that, and then goes and tells you you don't have any water so you need to work on developing compassion and empathy as you're completely lacking in it or some other equally daft pronouncement.

I know, Olivia. We don't know each other yet. I've seen some of your other posts, so I know that you are not one to use astrology lightly.

I am often a bit vague when discussing charts because I am wary of "planting a negative seed".

I think we don't always see signatures (I don't notice them many times), so people probably miss the fact that my data is right there and very exact.

I was suggesting that Arian might find it interesting to explore first-impressions from people who now know her well because her AC, according to her birth certificate (I think this is right, Arian!) gives her a very early Aries AC, so if she were born just a few minutes earlier, she would be Pisces AC.

That's only one factor, of course, but I was not too surprised to read elsewhere that your AC is Sag. But I'm not generalizing about that. There are SO many factors in a chart that will show characteristics that will seem "fiery" or "sanguine".

[Arian Maverick]

I hadn't thought of asking friends about their first impression of me; this could proove to be an interesting exercise.

I don't know if this counts, but I received a message from one of the other officers in the organization I'm a part of, and I thought it was curious how the message highlighted the way in which each of us could contribute to an important meeting. She noted that I have a knack for remembering minor details, the president can generate spontaneous speech which doesn't say anything particular, she's good at discussing events, etc.

I probably shouldn't have been surprised by her brief assessment of my character, but it is strange to see which characteristics another latches on to and associates you with.

Of course, this is not meant to be a replacement for the exercise you described. Yet I imagine that my friends' first impression of me would convey similar details, since we met at a meeting of potential officer candidates in which I was frantically scribbling notes. This is not a particularly Piscean or Arian characteristic, though...

Arian Maverick

[waybread]

Arian, my previous post was the short version of my take on problems with identifying the rising sign. An extended version includes the following suggestions.

1. Gaer's comments on moon signs does work in my opinion, once one gets to know someone reasonably well. Since the moon changes signs every three days, I was lucky in my husband's example that it did change signs on his birthday. The choices were Sagittarius and Capricorn. I was also lucky in that he has no other planets in either sign that might confuse the issue. Well, he's Very Sagittary in terms of his outlook on life. So this knocks out a bunch of rising sign possibilities. Also, in my own illustration, the moon changed signs on my birthday, and the choices were Cancer and Leo. I was pretty sure I was more Leo than Cancer, which proved to be correct once I found my birth time.

2. The best book I know of on rising signs is Jodie Forrest, The Ascendant. She looks holistically at the AC/DC axis. Although she assumes people know their AS, her work has broader applicability to chart rectification. So for example, if someone has a Significant Other, s/he should pay attention to what the SO says by way of criticism, because it will often match up with the negative qualities of the sign. And the criticisms one has of one's S0, similarly, will often match the negative qualities of the sign on the DC.

For example, if you have a spouse/partner/BF, and if, when he's annoyed, he criticizes your nit-picking perfectionism; and if when you're annoyed, you criticize his alcohol consumption and unwillingness to mow the lawn, you may be looking at Virgo Rising with Pisces on the DC.

It would be nice if this worked more positively, but True Love Never Runs Smooth.

3. Re: Natasha's point on Uranus. Some astrologers think one can rectify a chart by timing Uranus transits, because it signifies sudden change. For example, if someone suddenly has a love affair, a gambling disaster, or an unexpected child, one might assume that Uranus has just moved into the 5th house.

[Leon]

Arian, do those close to you have hard Libran or Virgo influences?

I found that all the characters that stay in my life have major Aquarian placements whether it be their Ascendant, Sun, or Moon. It gets annoying at times. When everybody near you is an "Aquarius" it's like you don't know anybody the majority of the time.

[Arian Maverick]

Thank you for extending your previous explanation, waybread.

1. Gaer's comments on moon signs does work in my opinion, once one gets to know someone reasonably well. Since the moon changes signs every three days, I was lucky in my husband's example that it did change signs on his birthday. The choices were Sagittarius and Capricorn. I was also lucky in that he has no other planets in either sign that might confuse the issue. Well, he's Very Sagittary in terms of his outlook on life. So this knocks out a bunch of rising sign possibilities. Also, in my own illustration, the moon changed signs on my birthday, and the choices were Cancer and Leo. I was pretty sure I was more Leo than Cancer, which proved to be correct once I found my birth time.

If my memory serves correctly, both of my parents were born on days in which the Moon changed signs, so I was able to use this method to eliminate several Ascendant signs as possibilities. This worked much better for my father than my mother, though; I knew he must have a Capricorn Moon, and this was simplified because there were no other planets in Capricorn in his natal chart. My mother, however, has a Libra stellium even larger than my Aries stellium, although it does not include as many inner planets. Her Moon could be in Libra or Scorpio, but this does not particularly help me because her birth time range could give her a Libra or Scorpio Ascendant, which may explain the mix of characteristics.

2. The best book I know of on rising signs is Jodie Forrest, The Ascendant. She looks holistically at the AC/DC axis. Although she assumes people know their AS, her work has broader applicability to chart rectification. So for example, if someone has a Significant Other, s/he should pay attention to what the SO says by way of criticism, because it will often match up with the negative qualities of the sign. And the criticisms one has of one's S0, similarly, will often match the negative qualities of the sign on the DC.

For example, if you have a spouse/partner/BF, and if, when he's annoyed, he criticizes your nit-picking perfectionism; and if when you're annoyed, you criticize his alcohol consumption and unwillingness to mow the lawn, you may be looking at Virgo Rising with Pisces on the DC.

It would be nice if this worked more positively, but True Love Never Runs Smooth.

Thank you for the book recommendation! This is another interesting idea, one which I had not thought to explore. Unfortunately, I do not have any significant other at this time, so I cannot use this method for my own chart--unless my perpetual disinterest in such relationships may indicate a specific Descendant sign.

I should probably qualify that I have a recorded time of birth on my birth certificate, so I am not looking at all twelve signs. Gaer was correct about my situation; I was born on the cusp of two signs of fast Ascension, so if my recorded time of birth is inaccurate by three minutes or more, I could have a late Pisces Ascendant instead of the early Aries Ascendant indicated by this recorded time of birth.

3. Re: Natasha's point on Uranus. Some astrologers think one can rectify a chart by timing Uranus transits, because it signifies sudden change. For example, if someone suddenly has a love affair, a gambling disaster, or an unexpected child, one might assume that Uranus has just moved into the 5th house.

This seems like another good method to try, especially because Uranus is prominant in my natal chart; it's conjunct my Midheaven and is the most elevated planet. I don't know if this is a "valid" method of chart rectification, but I have contemplated rectifying my father's natal chart based upon significant planets in his children's natal charts. My grandmother insists that he was born within a certain range of time in the morning, and although I acknowledge that memory is not the best indicator, her time would give my father an Ascendant on the cusp of Gemini and Cancer.

He has a Jupiter-Uranus conjunction in Cancer, so moving the suggested birth time forward slightly would put this conjunction in the first house. My brother has a dignified Jupiter in Pisces conjunct his Ascendant, and both my brother and I have Uranus conjunct our Midheaven. Therefore, it seems plausible that each of us "inherited" an emphasis upon Jupiter and/or Uranus, especially because we both "inherited" a yod aspect with the common Pluto-Neptune base.

I know acknowledge that not all Gemini Ascendants are chatty, but I cannot contemplate my father having this Ascendant sign, especially because his chart ruler Mercury would be in Aquarius to boot. This combination seems much too social/interactive to describe him; my father is much more of an introvert, which would suit a Cancer Ascendant. I admit that I was initially hesitant to bestow him with a Cancer Ascendant as well due to the emotionalism connected with this sign, but this would be mitigated by his Capricorn Moon. I can easily see his chart ruler being in Capricorn, and an early Cancer Ascendant would make his Moon/North Node conjunction more prominant, bringing it close to his Descendant.

I'm not quite sure what to make of Mercury conjunct his Midheaven, but that is an issue to focus upon at another time.

Arian, do those close to you have hard Libran or Virgo influences?

I found that all the characters that stay in my life have major Aquarian placements whether it be their Ascendant, Sun, or Moon. It gets annoying at times. When everybody near you is an "Aquarius" it's like you don't know anybody the majority of the time.

Well, as I mentioned earlier, my mother has a Libra stellium, although only one planet is within orb of an opposition with one of my planets.

Believe it or not, I seem to get along well with Libras. Two individuals with which I have shared extensive communication both have Libra stelliums. I've always thought of this as the Universe's way of balancing my Aries stellium, but I suppose it could also indicate a Libra Descendant.

Yet wouldn't a Libra Descendant give a certain emphasis upon relationships? My natal Venus is in independent Aries, which could partially explain my lack of interest in this area.

This may be explained by my natal Mars in Gemini, but I tend to attract a certain type--somewhat shy and reserved (I suppose this is more Virgoan than Geminian), with strong technical interests that may classify them as "geeks."

For others who may be reading this thread, please do not let this temporary diversion in discussion dissuade you from posting your own experience regarding Ascendant signs! I'm still greatly interested in others' experiences...

Arian Maverick

[astrologer50]

I use Solar arcs to angles as previously suggested, but also look at times when in few days there seems to be lots and lots of communications going on, letters and short distance trips cos that would suggest Merc conj ASC.

Again t Mars conj asc plenty of energy, enthusiasm, ego action, sports etc. Similar when T go over MC but more noticeable over Asc..

I used Solar Arcs to rectify my time of birth.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by waybread

Yet prior to finding that birth document, I ate, drank, slept, &c. as though I actually had those other ascendants. The power of suggestion! Obviously other influences were coming through my personality and physical appearance from elsewhere in my chart.
.

I find the 'power of suggestion' very interesting and maybe it is applicable to my case. My parents have guessed a certain birth time for me which would make me a virgo rising but I don't feel or look like one. But perhaps this is because I want to be a leo rising as I feel my creativity and desire to perform has been suppressed for such a long time, so my reasoning is that if I am a leo rising then I would feel like I had more permission and freedom to pursue my creative dreams. Maybe this is why I am slightly obsessed (hmm sounds like a virgo trait ) in figuring out my rising sign. I have such a passionate desire (my scorpioness coming through) to be a leo rising! Because I have been struck with such a fascination and desire for the Leo energy, I could instead look at where else Leo falls in my chart (Jupiter in Leo) and focus on that.

[R4VEN]

I guessed (figured out using my powers of observation and deduction!!) my younger brother's birth time. He didn't care about it at all, but I did. Some 15 years ago I'd asked my mother for his time of birth, and since she was already in the early stages of Alzheimer's, she got as far as telling me what she and my father had for lunch that day in 1957. I combined her probable arrival at the hospital and the window between that time and when my father would have left the hospital to come home to tell us all that we had (another!) brother gave me around 5 hours to work with as a possible birth time.

The possible rising signs were Taurus, Gemini & Leo. I could settle on Taurus immediately, as he has no traits of the other 2. One day he happened to say to me: `My home and family are really important to me - if they are OK, then I feel I'm successful'. He's not at all out-going, and is very deliberate, quiet, steady and purposeful. Also, his wife has sun and moon in Taurus, and together they flow well with each other. The key to getting his time accurate within 5-10 mins either way was a more delicate operation. However, I know my brother very well, am empathic, and feel that I pretty much nailed it.

Had I had the whole 24-hour period to choose from it would have been a much more difficult task.