Aspect Patterns

[alcyone]

Hello Again!

Hope I am not posting too much, always full of questions! Please let me know if I should cut back on the questions. This post is basically three questions. 1. Are these T-Squares? 2. If so, am I correctly interpreting the meaning? 3. Possible resolution to the issue. I am including my chart below in case it may be helpful to reference.

I am attempting to study my chart to learn more about aspect patterns. The only patterns I can find are possibly two T- Squares pretty much on top of eachother.

So question 1: The bottom portion of both T-Squares are Neptune in the 2nd house opposing my Moon in the 8th house. Then the Moon goes on to square both Jupiter and Saturn in my 11th house which both go back down to square Neptune. To make a T-Square, does the bottom part which is in opposition count? Or do all aspects have to be squared to one another? (I hope the way I explained that makes sense)

Now, if these are T-Squares, then from my studies I have learned that I need to sort of "release" the tension the square makes. One way of doing that is by finding a planet directly opposite the apex of the T-Square to work with. In my case however, there isn't one. I suppose then that I must wait for a transiting planet to pass opposite the apex and work with that? Since there isn't one do I attempt to put too much emphasis on the empty houses and since its pretty cusp-looking is it the 4th, 5th or both?

Now attempting to tackle the meanings of these possible T-Squares. Firstly, they both consist of planets relating to signs that are Cardinal and Mutable..but the apex of both T-Squares are cardinal. I assume that shows a constant desire or pressure to resolve whatever conflict the T-Squares are presenting.

The Apex's (Jupiter and Saturn) are also both in the 11th house of friends or groups. I would guess that Jupiter in the 11th house would mean I have luck with finding influential friends and acquaintances or am possibly in associations which bring me good fortune or prominance...one would guess I am rather popular. However, squared with the Moon I would have some emotional difficulty..maybe projecting too much of my emotions into friendships...expecting too much of them or pushing them away, while the jupiter squaring neptune would also suggest I can put too much emotions or faith in people, often being mislead or feel used and taken advantage of.

Saturn in the 11th house shows I would have a few close friends and possibly a hard time making them because of the investigatory nature of Saturn..maybe being too guarded from the Jupiter/Neptune association? Which would kind of go into the explanation of moon squaring Saturn. Perhaps my previous experiences with people have left me rather cynical and gave me a poor self-image. When Neptune squared Jupiter is added, it also confirms the fear of being taken advantage of and perhaps out of that fear I perceive things to be more negative than they are and it re-affirms the fear I already have, possibly even ending friendships and acquaintances because I have convinced myself that its not good for me or maybe I am not good enough for them/it.

So overall, I think both t-squares show that I have a very difficult time in making friends and maintaining those friendships or being part of organizations. I guess that is rather true now that I have looked through all that and had to own up to it as I wrote it all to you here. Wow, therapy! However, I am concerned with knowing whether or not it is astrologically true and if I did in fact interpret it correctly or if I just projected myself too much into the meaning.

Here is my chart if it helps!

[astrologer50]

It would be helpful if you could cut it down a little.....
http://www.cafeastrology.com/article...tpatterns.html
Its interesting to note you have Yod also 'finger of god' aspect which the above site will explain involving Venus as Apex in 7th house

Your natal Pluto is in 12th house (Equal house) not 11th.
So 5th house matters being the empty leg of wobbly chair so to speak. So when a transit in Aries comes along with may cause some kind of crisis and 'set off' all your square creating a temporary Grand Square involving those houses and planets

Anything around 24' Scorpio will 'set off ' your Yod by opposition and give a little respite as it also sextiles (left and right) Pluto and Neptune. Quincunxs cause health strains and problems and are internal be nature. Some people spend too much time down one end and then end up see sawing until they learn to intergrate and balance the planets energies, within themselves.

Originally Posted by alcyone

Hello Again!

Hope I am not posting too much, always full of questions! Please let me know if I should cut back on the questions. This post is basically three questions. 1. Are these T-Squares? 2. If so, am I correctly interpreting the meaning? 3. Possible resolution to the issue. I am including my chart below in case it may be helpful to reference.

I am attempting to study my chart to learn more about aspect patterns. The only patterns I can find are possibly two T- Squares pretty much on top of eachother.

So question 1: The bottom portion of both T-Squares are Neptune in the 2nd house opposing my Moon in the 8th house. Then the Moon goes on to square both Jupiter and Saturn in my 11th house which both go back down to square Neptune. To make a T-Square, does the bottom part which is in opposition count? Or do all aspects have to be squared to one another? (I hope the way I explained that makes sense)

Now, if these are T-Squares, then from my studies I have learned that I need to sort of "release" the tension the square makes. One way of doing that is by finding a planet directly opposite the apex of the T-Square to work with. In my case however, there isn't one. I suppose then that I must wait for a transiting planet to pass opposite the apex and work with that? Since there isn't one do I attempt to put too much emphasis on the empty houses and since its pretty cusp-looking is it the 4th, 5th or both?

Now attempting to tackle the meanings of these possible T-Squares. Firstly, they both consist of planets relating to signs that are Cardinal and Mutable..but the apex of both T-Squares are cardinal. I assume that shows a constant desire or pressure to resolve whatever conflict the T-Squares are presenting.

The Apex's (Jupiter and Saturn) are also both in the 11th house of friends or groups. I would guess that Jupiter in the 11th house would mean I have luck with finding influential friends and acquaintances or am possibly in associations which bring me good fortune or prominance...one would guess I am rather popular. However, squared with the Moon I would have some emotional difficulty..maybe projecting too much of my emotions into friendships...expecting too much of them or pushing them away, while the jupiter squaring neptune would also suggest I can put too much emotions or faith in people, often being mislead or feel used and taken advantage of.

OK, JUPITER AND SATURN REALLY DONT GET ALONG WELL AS JUPITER WANTS TO EXPAND, HAVE A GO AND SATURN SAYS, AH BUT YOU HAVE GOT TO GET UP FOR WORK NEXT DAY. THUS CAUSES SEE SAW... SHALL YOU HAVE A GO OR PUT HARD WORK AND EFFORT IN TO STRUCTURE SOMETHING

SATURN IN 11TH CAN SHOW OLDER TYPE FRIENDS AND BY WAY OF COMPENSAITON, FIERCELY LOYAL. SATURN ACTS AS CEMENT REMEMBER

Saturn in the 11th house shows I would have a few close friends and possibly a hard time making them because of the investigatory nature of Saturn..maybe being too guarded from the Jupiter/Neptune association? Which would kind of go into the explanation of moon squaring Saturn. Perhaps my previous experiences with people have left me rather cynical and gave me a poor self-image. When Neptune squared Jupiter is added, it also confirms the fear of being taken advantage of and perhaps out of that fear I perceive things to be more negative than they are and it re-affirms the fear I already have, possibly even ending friendships and acquaintances because I have convinced myself that its not good for me or maybe I am not good enough for them/it.

MOON SQUARE SATURN =ENDURE HARDSHIPS, FINANCIAL, EMOTIONAL COULD WITHDRAW EMOTIONALLY OR BE RESERVED

SATURN SQUARE NEPTUNE = FEAR OF UNKNOWN.... NOT NEPTUNE SQUARE JUPITER = OVERGENEROUS TO PERHAPS SOMETIMES THE WRONG PEOPLE

So overall, I think both t-squares show that I have a very difficult time in making friends and maintaining those friendships or being part of organizations. I guess that is rather true now that I have looked through all that and had to own up to it as I wrote it all to you here. Wow, therapy! However, I am concerned with knowing whether or not it is astrologically true and if I did in fact interpret it correctly or if I just projected myself too much into the meaning.

Here is my chart if it helps!

THAT GEMINI MOON IN 8TH HOUSE CAN BE VERY RESTLESS BUT ALWAYS WANTS DEEP AND MEANINGFUL EMOTIONAL CONNECTIONS IE; HOUSE OF SCORPIO
MOON SQUARE JUPITER = OVER THE TOP EMOITONALLY, PERHAPS TOO QUICKLY IN RELATIONSHIPS
MOON OPP NEPTUNE = EMOTIONAL DISILLUSIONMENT IN RELATIONSHIPS

BUT HEY THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ALL HERE TO DO, IS TO LEARN OUR LESSONS, WITH DIVINE TIMING AND GOOD GRACE. COS WITHOUT MAKING A FEW MISTAKES, HOW DO WE EVER LEARN...

[alcyone]

Thanks so much Astrolger50. I didn't even notice the Yod, I will have to look into that some more

[astrologer50]

I've found the charts with 3-4 quincunxs are restless and always looking for life's answers, but they dont realise that other people, things cannot deliver until the look within......

Oppositions in aspects are always other people, squares create inner tension, but get you moving to solve problems. People with lots of trines causes inertia and just wait or expect things to happen or fall into place...

[piercethevale]

alcyone, you've got quite the Quincunc conundrum here as the Lady said.
We are both May 6th babies and both Scorpio rising...I can relate, i've also a 'T' square involving Saurn in the 11th house [I prefer and use the Placidus system though].
I would like to point out that your natal Uranus is in the most advanced degree of any Planet/Orb in any sign...meaning that Uranus is always the last Planet influenced by transits...it will always be the 'cutain call' in events in your life.
I would look at this as a calling to explore, expand and utilize the Uranian influence in your life...
I would recommend Dane Rudhyars' writings, myself, for more on this effect and influences of Uranus...and Dane wrote some very interesting things about people born May 6th ["The Astrology of Personality" D. Rudhyar]...remember that a 'T' Square is a small part of larger matrices...the "Grand Cross" [which in reality is a Grand Square] and the 12 point matrix, which represents "The Path of Discipleship"...look for transiting planets that activate the vacant degrees of these matrices and learn to utilize those times and the energies released.

...ps. I should have included the 8 point Matrices as they also incorporate these 'T' squares...quite a Matrix the 8 pointer...It is a path of action!

[wilsontc]

alcyone,

You asked:

Originally Posted by alcyone

1. Are these T-Squares? 2. If so, am I correctly interpreting the meaning? 3. Possible resolution to the issue...The only patterns I can find

Yes, this is one big T-square focused on the 11th house (friends), indicating a focus on friends. Jupiter (expansion) conjunct (energy is combined with) Saturn (duty, also contraction, also structure) is involved, so there can be a kind of "opening up and immediately shutting down" reaction to friends. The challenge is to open up and then learn how to structure your friendships in
some way.

You also have 2 Easy Oppositions (two planets in opposition each sextile and trine to a third planet(s)), one of them focused on your Jupiter conjunct Saturn and the other focused on Pluto, both of the focuses in the 11th house. The Easy Oppositions work like a T-square only "easier" since easy aspects are involved in the pattern.

Aspectfully yours,

Tim

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Hey Alcyone, some of the Sundance views on a precursory look:

1) You can never ask enough questions

2) No one here has looked at your interpretation and said 'ERROR'. This means it is basically tenable. I also think that we make our astrological truth, especially in psychological astrology. So you said it felt like therapy, and if it makes sense to you then it probably is 'correct'. And in a few years time you might look at it an interpret it another way, and that will make sense also. And other people might chip in with their interpretations and we all hold hands and put flowers in our hair and dance around in love and harmony.

Anyway I digress.

When I saw your chart I saw Venus as an ultra powerful planet here, ruling all the other planets, and being in Taurus on the 7th. She's also a real hub in the aspect department, and seeing as Libra rules 2 houses, she gains in status from the interception/ duplication patter. So think of her all the time.

Moon-Neptune opposition

Now she is in opposition to your Uranus, which sitting in the first house, angular and exalted, might represent your innate characteristics. And the IC, ruled by Uranus also, might suggest a harmony between your childhood circumstances and this part of your personality- your Asc. So there is this innate Urano-Scorpionic personality that developed without interference.

Although there is one divergence. That is the intercepted Pisces. Now there is a new interceptions thread, which might expand on that. But basically I think this means that the Pisces is frustrated, and has no outlet. Neptune is exiled into the 2nd house, and so there is a potent link between house 4 and house 2 and then by opposition, house 9. So I might say any conflict in the early life would be about Neptune-opposite moon, but this might not disturb your urano-scorpionic self. Some might make the jump and ask about mother, so I guess I will, but I'm not entirely convinced this is about the mother alone.

So I will have to ask: what ideals, dreams or attitudes do you think you have? Do they stem from your childhood- this may be difficult to tell as Neptune is illusive, and because it is often difficult to separate characteristics as innate and as conditioned. I would think these ideals, even if they feel like your own, might instead be sourced from the environment around your upbringing, and the 2nd house- financial circumstance and whatever else the 2nd house stands for.

It might be easier to find the Neptune influence if you think of the ideals you have which you can't pin-point down to Uranus and Scorpio, but this might be difficult because of the mixed water influence.

And how does this relate to the moon? I will give one interpretation here, which might not be a correct one, but it might give you an idea of the sort of logic I am using. I might think that the childhood was a very airy one, one which had a rather dynamic and strange Uranus-Gemini moon- Scorpionic undertone to it. Airy and strangely Scorpionic too. It would depend on how you see the Uranus-Moon quincunx.

Yet despite this rather dynamic upbringing, which seems certainly in tune with your innate personality, there was a more emotional and dreamy vision of values. These do not have to conflict with the Uranio-Scorpio. They might even idealise Uranus. They might think 'this upbringing is progressive, or humanitarian, or unpredictable (pick your own Uranus-Scorpio trait) and this is great.

As I think of the moon as what we need and what our habits are, an opposition might suggest that our actual habits and needs, especially regarding sexual expression and general 8th house stuff, does not fit in with the ideal we so strongly hold but cannot find a way to express well. It is in direct contrast to it, which might be a little disappointing. And this moon also sits uneasily with Uranus. So despite the upbringing that might have been either planned out to be enlightening, or turned out to be unpredictable but awesome, instead of changing you dramatically and making you original, it turned out your own inclinations, the moon, and your own views on life, were actually rather more traditional and Cancerian.

Now if one thinks of the moon as mother, then maybe what you wished your family or upbringing was like and maybe what you wished your mother (if you think moon=mother, I'm not so sure) was like, or women in general, was different from what you actually had.

What do you think of this type of reasoning? I figured better to understand the opposition before we look at the squares... if its possible to separate them

And please, feel free to tell me I'm wrong, no need to be polite

EDIT: General tidy up and re-phrasing

[The_Sundance_Kid]

For what it's worth, I think these are great placements, in all my favourite signs, which is why I personally find it hard to find problems... call it the astrologer's bias!

I mean, most people have Saturn and Jupiter telling them different things, bickering all the time, tearing them apart. And yet here you are, born at that auspicious time when they decided to MAKE FRIENDS, in peaceful Libra, in the house of friends, where Saturn might actually be seen as beneficial because of exaltation and rulership, and where apparently Jupiter finds joy.

When I want a chart to be better sometimes I reduce orbs, so that's how I would get rid of the Saturn-Neptune square. And I'm sure we'll figure out the Moon squares. I have a moon in Gemini too, and I think its a placement that gives great flexibility. A fellow astrologer once told me that moon in Gemini's have no hang ups, they can pretty much get used to anything.

[alcyone]

Wilson:

Thanks for verifying those were in fact T-Squares. I would have felt rather embrassed going into that whole interpretation just to have it turn out to be my imagination looking too much into things

Still trying to understand what this whole friends thing is about though, I don't personally feel like friendships or lack thereof are a huge part of my life...maybe I should review my priorities? I just moved from N. Ca to..Oklahoma and don't really have any friends here so it should be helpful to keep the above in mind when acquiring new/future friendships.

Piercethevale:

Wow, is it usually common to find such commonalities between charts? I see your from Northern California (the bear avatar caught my eye) Does this have anything to do with it?

Thank you for your suggestions and recommendation. I will definately look into that book! I will have to start paying close attention to my transits.



Thank you very much for your explanation Sundancekid! I appreciate you looking into this and breaking it up like you did...

Originally Posted by The_Sundance_Kid

When I saw your chart I saw Venus as an ultra powerful planet here, ruling all the other planets, and being in Taurus on the 7th. She's also a real hub in the aspect department, and seeing as Libra rules 2 houses, she gains in status from the interception/ duplication patter. So think of her all the time.

While this is not part of my original question, I am very interested in the arts and also enjoy painting/drawing/sculpting etc. Would this be part of that?

Originally Posted by The_Sundance_Kid

So there is this innate Urano-Scorpionic personality that developed without interference.

Oh, that sounds interesting! Not sure what to make of that yet but it does sound intriguing. Uranus is more unpredictable right?

Originally Posted by The_Sundance_Kid

Some might make the jump and ask about mother, so I guess I will, but I'm not entirely convinced this is about the mother alone.

So I will have to ask: what ideals, dreams or attitudes do you think you have? Do they stem from your childhood- this may be difficult to tell as Neptune is illusive, and because it is often difficult to separate characteristics as innate and as conditioned. I would think these ideals, even if they feel like your own, might instead be sourced from the environment around your upbringing, and the 2nd house- financial circumstance and whatever else the 2nd house stands for.

It might be easier to find the Neptune influence if you think of the ideals you have which you can't pin-point down to Uranus and Scorpio, but this might be difficult because of the mixed water influence.

And how does this relate to the moon? I will give one interpretation here, which might not be a correct one, but it might give you an idea of the sort of logic I am using. I might think that the childhood was a very airy one, one which had a rather dynamic and strange Uranus-Gemini moon- Scorpionic undertone to it. Airy and strangely Scorpionic too. It would depend on how you see the Uranus-Moon quincunx.

Yet despite this rather dynamic upbringing, which seems certainly in tune with your innate personality, there was a more emotional and dreamy vision of values. These do not have to conflict with the Uranio-Scorpio. They might even idealise Uranus. They might think 'this upbringing is progressive, or humanitarian, or unpredictable (pick your own Uranus-Scorpio trait) and this is great.

As I think of the moon as what we need and what our habits are, an opposition might suggest that our actual habits and needs, especially regarding sexual expression and general 8th house stuff, does not fit in with the ideal we so strongly hold but cannot find a way to express well. It is in direct contrast to it, which might be a little disappointing. And this moon also sits uneasily with Uranus. So despite the upbringing that might have been either planned out to be enlightening, or turned out to be unpredictable but awesome, instead of changing you dramatically and making you original, it turned out your own inclinations, the moon, and your own views on life, were actually rather more traditional and Cancerian.

Now if one thinks of the moon as mother, then maybe what you wished your family or upbringing was like and maybe what you wished your mother (if you think moon=mother, I'm not so sure) was like, or women in general, was different from what you actually had.

What do you think of this type of reasoning? I figured better to understand the opposition before we look at the squares... if its possible to separate them

And please, feel free to tell me I'm wrong, no need to be polite

EDIT: General tidy up and re-phrasing

That sounds pretty much right on. I do think the moon would stand for my mother, and to give an idea of what she is like.. well she is a cancer and 90% of everything in her chart is also hanging out in cancer.. So she is very nurturing but also really moody and somewhat emotionally and mentally embalanced! A lot of my teenage and now adult years are spent making sure she isn't going off the deep end and handing strangers her life savings among other things, haha.

My upbringing was in fact interesting, my parents divorced when I was 2 so I didn't have any deep relationship with my father but my mother raised me as a Pagan/Wiccan. So, while other girls were selling girl scout cookies, I was learning Tarot, how to make runes and all sorts of stuff.

However, I wouldn't say I have adopted traditional views. While I sometimes wish I didn't feel so different from everyone growing up, I now really identify with that part of me and appreciate the knowledge I gained.... I wish she taught me more about astrology though! I get so confused still

Thanks for the added post about them being great placements. With all these crazy quincunx aspects I was kind of worried it signified something horrible to come.

And yea, I think they were right about the Moon in Gemini. I am pretty laid back and can get used to most anything.

[The_Sundance_Kid]

I think the way you describe your mother fits both a Gemini Moon in 8th as well as an Aquarian IC with Uranus in Scorpio in the 1st.

I would say that you identify alot with the upbringing- this could be both the Uranus and the moon. So that still leaves the question where does Neptune come in? What is Neptune confusing here?

The only thing that can make sense to me is this: If the moon is your mother, then Neptune shows that she is different to what you think the ideal mother should be like. Would you like to emulate her as a mother or would you be very different. Are your values the same as her values? You may get on well with your mother and identify with her personally, but what are your dreams/ fantasies on womanhood and motherhood?

Or this: If Uranus-Scorpio is the mother figure, and the moon is your habits, then do you find that you are in fact less good at astrology/ tarot than your mother. While she takes it rather serious, do you have a more flippant or flexible attitude, when ideally you dream about being like your mother. In other words, do you find it hard to be as hard-core New Age as your mother seems to be, and do you wish you could be?

[The_Sundance_Kid]

*Sundance calls in the astrological cavalry to save his measly socks*

[alcyone]

Well, while I do love her dearly, I wouldn't want to be like her as a mother. I am actually not sure if I want to have kids. Though, as I am getting awfully close to my 1st saturn return I am feeling a lot of pressure to decide soon if parenthood may be right for me in my future :/

I do identify a lot with my upbringing, and also I do wish that I had the depth of knowledge she does in all things mystical/occult-ish. It really is astounding to me, and hope with study I can have the same level of knowledge.

However, if I did have kids, I decided that I would not raise them any particular way religiously until they thought about what they wanted.

I think our values are pretty different other than the fact that we both love knowledge and learning and teaching. Other than that, the similarity ends though. We butt heads on politics/cooking you name it. So my values are more in line with freedom of expression/individuality while hers are more in line with nurtering everything even if its just her plants.

I think that now, I actually take tarot/astrology more serious than her. It has been a weird shift. When I was younger, I wasn't as serious as her but as I have grown older, I have become more serious about my religion and teachings while she has become less and less serious. Now days she acts more christian than her original pagan teachings which just frustrates me to no end. Not because she has found Christianity..I firmly believe in freedom of religon, but more because she would so easily give up her teachings.

Well, I hope this answeres your questions. Maybe that is really where the Neptune confusion comes into play. There seems to be a lot of polarities in just about every aspect of her and I. Things I identify with while at the same time would do completely differently

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Wow, that's interesting. So I think on both counts you think the moon is your mother- you would not want to mother in the same way as her, and she is the more flippant one, who can switch between her teachings and beliefs so fast.

While you identified with her way of bringing you up, this was idealised in your perception. I think the IC shows how we perceive our upbringing and traits, rather than how they were objectively experienced. Ok I think I understand this opposition better now. Thank you I hope it has helped you understand the opposition too!

So now I think I get a feel for this more I would then start to look at the squares as things which really bring out the tension in this opposition. They are square both of these facets, but by being square they might not be the mediation we hope for. But the challenge is to use the mutual squares to resolve the initial opposition. This is what I am feeling here, but I will look at the squares later.

And also I think these T-Squares are less important. The more important aspect patterns are the Venus-Uranus opposition, mediated by Jupiter and Saturn, and the yod. This is because Venus is heavily involved, and I mentioned earlier I thought Venus was significant. I think we can use your T-Squares to build up to these more important configurations.

[alcyone]

Thanks again Sundance Kid, you have been a great help in understanding this better