new void question

[barbh]

If the moon is applying to sextile Saturn as its last aspect,....moon at 20 scorp and Saturn at 21 Virgo...and the Sun is at 29 Cap right now.....we see that the moon never makes it to the Sun before the Sun reaches Aquarius, so we say Saturn is its last aspect.

However...(with my new Lilly void info about orbs etc).... if the Sun just shifts into 0 Aquarius...and then that moon shifts into Sag and immediately sextiles the Sun, albeit from different signs now....how does this impact the question?

We could say that whatever the Sun represents eludes us, but we end up getting it because the moon has to change signs to sextile it?

I was just thinking of this under the 'will this surgery be successful' thread. Is moon to Saturn really considered to be the last aspect...just because its the last planet aspected within that sign? in the chart, the moon is obviously not in orb of Saturn, let alone the Sun, but when the moon reaches say, 20 Scorp, and then sextiles Saturn, and then changes signs to sextile the Sun, and then merc...where does it stop?? The moon at 20 Scorp is within orb of the Sun and of Merc. Where exactly is the last aspect??

i'm sure i've confused everybody by now.

thanks
barbh

[RayAustin]

Originally Posted by barbh

If the moon is applying to sextile Saturn as its last aspect,....moon at 20 scorp and Saturn at 21 Virgo...and the Sun is at 29 Cap right now.....we see that the moon never makes it to the Sun before the Sun reaches Aquarius, so we say Saturn is its last aspect.

Yea.

However...(with my new Lilly void info about orbs etc).... if the Sun just shifts into 0 Aquarius...and then that moon shifts into Sag and immediately sextiles the Sun, albeit from different signs now....how does this impact the question?

We could say that whatever the Sun represents eludes us, but we end up getting it because the moon has to change signs to sextile it?

I'm assuming you mean in the context of the querent's significator not already aspecting the sun. Typically a question ends with the sign the moon's in, and her last aspect. So it ends with Saturn. Since the moon does not get to perfect an aspect with the Sun, then it is not something that's going to happen. Something that might seem to come, but passes.

I was just thinking of this under the 'will this surgery be successful' thread. Is moon to Saturn really considered to be the last aspect...just because its the last planet aspected within that sign?

Assuming Luna's aspect is realized (perfected) with Saturn, then yes, Saturn would be the last aspect.

in the chart, the moon is obviously not in orb of Saturn, let alone the Sun, but when the moon reaches say, 20 Scorp, and then sextiles Saturn, and then changes signs to sextile the Sun, and then merc...where does it stop?? The moon at 20 Scorp is within orb of the Sun and of Merc. Where exactly is the last aspect??

I think you know where it is.. It's going to be the last planet she aspects and completes the aspect with before changing signs.

I hope others will give their opinion, but, Luna aspecting Sol and completing it in another sign may be that things will drastically have to change. But it depends on the moon's strength beforehand and the strength of the significators. If the moon is cadent, or in the bad houses, or there's other bad afflictions to the chart I would doubt that things would be able to take a turn in the right direction, especially if the significators are weak.. but I guess you are just talking about the moon and Sol specifically.

Another interpretation is if the Sun is moving into a cadent house, or is cadent as it is about to escape into Aquarius, then we could say that it eludes the querent, since the cadent houses (especially 12H) cannot be seen from the ascendant. So this could even be an "opportunity" that the querent isn't even aware of that comes and goes.

Ray

[barbh]

Ok, got it. Was just pushing the 'last aspect' envelope. So, we do use the last aspect in the current moon's sign as the last aspect. Although i know that we do still use out of sign orbs. Moon at 28 Taurus, for example, is still within orb of Venus at 3 Gemini. However, we wouldn't use the moon conjunct Venus as a last aspect, cause its not in the same sign. right?

barbh

[RayAustin]

Originally Posted by barbh

Ok, got it. Was just pushing the 'last aspect' envelope. So, we do use the last aspect in the current moon's sign as the last aspect. Although i know that we do still use out of sign orbs. Moon at 28 Taurus, for example, is still within orb of Venus at 3 Gemini. However, we wouldn't use the moon conjunct Venus as a last aspect, cause its not in the same sign. right?

You could--but it wouldn't have the same meaning as it would if it completed the conjunction in the same sign. It's probably another sign of circumstances needing to change, or changing first before something as desirous as that happened. I think it's nice to keep it simple with the last perfecting aspect as the last thing to bother looking forward to.

Perhaps others could shed light with more experience on the matter, how something like that has manifested for them.

Ray

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

I hope others will give their opinion, but, Luna aspecting Sol and completing it in another sign may be that things will drastically have to change.

More like Sol escapes Luna before she can get to him. That may be significant in the context of the question, especially if the perfecting aspect is mandatory for the question to come about.

Although i know that we do still use out of sign orbs. Moon at 28 Taurus, for example, is still within orb of Venus at 3 Gemini. However, we wouldn't use the moon conjunct Venus as a last aspect, cause its not in the same sign. right?

We only do this when Luna is in Cancer, Taurus, or Pisces, and then only if she immediately applies to a planet after switching signs. Yes, there is delay in the coming about of the question, and a change.

[barbh]

We

only do this when Luna is in Cancer, Taurus, or Pisces, and then only if she immediately applies to a planet after switching signs. Yes, there is delay in the coming about of the question, and a change.

I was not aware of this. We only take into account out of sign orbs when the moon is in these signs? I know Lilly says that the moon is not technically void in these signs, as this is where she is in rulership and exaltation, or in the sign of Jupiter ( I think you forgot to say Sag as well).

But as for the orb part and these signs, i've never heard of this. Could you tell me where I can go and read where he talks about this? I

thanks
barbh

[archergirl]

We only do this when Luna is in Cancer, Taurus, or Pisces, and then only if she immediately applies to a planet after switching signs.

Not necessarily. Lilly has a chart or two in Christian Astrology where the Moon is in late Gemini but applies to something in the next sign...it didn't seem to stop him doing it.

But to answer the original question, this is evasion. The Moon cannot get to the Sun before the Sun exits the sign. This is the answer, and many astrologers will stop here. What happens after that in terms of aspects may or may not be able to be seen by the Moon then changing signs, but I would hesitate before trying this, especially since the Moon has nearly zero dignity in Sagittarius, and only then in later degrees, and the Sun is in detriment in Aquarius. This must all be considered in light of the question.

AG

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Not necessarily. Lilly has a chart or two in Christian Astrology where the Moon is in late Gemini but applies to something in the next sign...it didn't seem to stop him doing it.

Curse you, Lilly! Why confuse me even more when it comes to the Void Moon!? I thought I had it all figured out.

[archergirl]

LOL, yes, Lilly is proof itself that horary is rather more 'flexible' than we are comfortable with. He never explained why he ignored VOC moons in these charts, either. I guess he must have figured, "Well, duh, isn't it obvious?".

AG

[barbh]

What about if the moon is at 29 degrees libra and applying to jupiter at 2 aquarius as its first and next aspect...applying to a square. Does this denote a change of circumstances in order for this to manifest.. or do it just see it as we normally do....the moon applying to square Jup and whatever that would normally mean in the chart?

barbh .

[archergirl]

We can't ignore the change of signs, even though the Moon is already well within orb of Jupiter. The Moon is entering her fall in the next sign (Scorpio), and this has to be judged as being significant, especially since there is a lack of reception.

AG

[tikana]

AG

does Lilly consider moon in VOID when it is applying to say jupiter with antiscia as it is right now?

Thanks
T

[starlink]

In a case like this I think that the situation will undergo some sort of (positive)change a bit further on in time.

[QUOTE by Tikana]
does Lilly consider moon in VOID when it is applying to say jupiter with antiscia as it is right now?


[/quote]
I really would not know. What I do know is that a conjunction to another planet by the Moon's Antiscion is usually a positive sign. It is seen as the shadow of the Moon, so I would say yes, in this case the Moon is not really VOC, but in some obscure way manages to get to the planet in question.

[starlink]

Thanks for reminding me of those exception placements of a VOC Moon Kai. I always seem to forget that, even though Lilly indeed does not always pays attention to that either.

[barbh]

AG said

We can't ignore the change of signs, even though the Moon is already well within orb of Jupiter. The Moon is entering her fall in the next sign (Scorpio), and this has to be judged as being significant, especially since there is a lack of reception

Ok, but what do you mean be 'we can't ignore it' exactly?
Here the moon is moving into a weaker sign, so we would say the square to jupiter is even harder to overcome..most likely.
But what about generally speaking....if there is a sign barrier for the moon to cross to make her next applying aspect that is within orb, do we just take into account how she feels when she will be in that sign, or is there a change of circumstances?

Say, moon at 29 Gemini applying to venus at 2 Scorpio..applying to a trine from a strong moon sign (once she changes signs). Do we say that there will be a change of circumstances before this aspect manifests, or do we just say its all good cause the moon is moving into a happier sign?? (disregarding the fact that venus in scorp is in the fall of the moon)

i'm in the process of readjusting how I view voids....or maybe they're non-voids now :-)

thanks
barbh

[archergirl]

But what about generally speaking....if there is a sign barrier for the moon to cross to make her next applying aspect that is within orb, do we just take into account how she feels when she will be in that sign, or is there a change of circumstances?

...or do we do C) All of the above?

The sign the moon is in now matters. The sign the moon will be in when it changes signs, matters. That there has to be a change of sign (and hence, some barrier to cross), also matters, probably most importantly. If the Moon is peregrine but after changing signs, goes into dignity, it can be seen as someone or something gaining strength to manifest the matter: so, a change for the better.

If the opposite is true, and the Moon moves from a sign of dignity to one of peregrination or weakness, we can see it as something changing for the worse, to a place where the Moon can't manifest the matter so easily.

This would apply even if the Moon is already within orb of the applied-to planet; so, the Moon is already within aspect of Jupiter but changes from, say, Scorpio to Sagittarius...something changes, making the Moon peregrine, but, well, at least it's not in fall any more, so it is more able to transfer its essence without risk of harm. It approaches Jupiter (and whatever Jupiter stands for) with the aim of manifesting something. In orb we can sort of see it as already 'in process' of happening, or beginning to happen. Something needs tweaking: there is an obstacle, a delay, something stopping it. A change is made, or happens; then the Moon is suddenly free to make the square or trine or sextile or whatever happen. The sign it's in will say a lot about whether it happens definitely, or weakly, or not at all.

Does that make sense?
AG

[barbh]

AG said

It approaches Jupiter (and whatever Jupiter stands for) with the aim of manifesting something. In orb we can sort of see it as already 'in process' of happening, or beginning to happen. Something needs tweaking: there is an obstacle, a delay, something stopping it. A change is made, or happens; then the Moon is suddenly free to make the square or trine or sextile or whatever happen. The sign it's in will say a lot about whether it happens definitely, or weakly, or not at all.

Ahhhhh. That's more of what I was getting at... The change of sign has to symbolize a shift in the process at hand....or a 'tweaking' as you say. I hope we get more charts with this kind of applying aspect....I'd like to see how this 'tweaking' or shift of circumstances manifests in an actual question.

Or, can you give an example of a chart/question you worked on where this kind of moon aspect applied, and the results of the question?

thanks
barbh

[barbh]

Wanted to add one more thing

This morning I see the moon was theoretically void at 28-29 Scorp, but within orb of applying to square Jup. I had stuff to do and an appointment to get to etc....so decided that it wasn't void and everything would proceed as normal. Yeah, right. It acted like a full on void! I needed $$ for this appointment, decided not to write a cheque but to go to the ATM instead, but when I got there I didn't have enough funds to take out , so decided to write a cheque instead, but of course had vetoed that idea previously so had no cheques on me ...it was all bad. The thing is, this is very, very uncharacteristic of me. I'm uber organized and always early for appointments. Of course i was late for this one. Typical void moon results.
So, these little real life experiments always tell me stuff. When the moon is not aspecting any more planets within that sign...it still acts void in real life. I know, merc retro etc....but this was way worse than usual merc retro stuff. Will have to keep experimenting. I'm going to organize a huge forum void experiment....pick a day when the moon is in last degrees but still applying to a planet in the next sign...and get everyone to pay attention during those few hours to see what does or does not manifest.
Fun!

barbh

[archergirl]

When the moon is not aspecting any more planets within that sign...it still acts void in real life.

I have exactly the same experiences with 'real life' VOC Moons, which should tell us something about the nature of void moons. You can always tell when the Moon is void. Note that it's not a case of 'nothing will come of it', as some people like to explain it. It's more a case of 'it's ruddy hard to get ANYTHING to go right!'...which fits with Lilly's 'things seldom go handsomely forward'.

I'll fish around in my charts; I'm sure I have a few.

AG

[starlink]

Or, can you give an example of a chart/question you worked on where this kind of moon aspect applied, and the results of the question?

Oh yes AG, that would be of interest! I am glad that Barbh is asking these sort of questions. By talking about it and you explaining things, we get a much better picture. I usually look at a normal ingoing trine between a well placed planet to a well placed other planet as very positive but when both planets are weak, much less. It is a very logical thing to me.
Another question I have is, what would be the outcome of a strongly placed planet making an aspect to a weakly placed planet and vice versa. Also something to ponder a bit. Is the one helping the other? Or is one planet spoiling the good intentions of the other or somehow weakening him? Things like that, those nuances, are of interest to me.

Same question for ingoing squares between strong planets or one strong, the other not. I suppose in the first example they can both overcome the obstacles very well, but what if one of them is weak?

[archergirl]

Here is an interesting one. It's not completely settled yet, but has reached a point where we can safely look at it for 'results so far'.

A friend had just met a man she really liked. She asked whether it would develop into a romance. This man happened to work in the office next to hers and they shared a supervisor.

The Moon is VERY late in Virgo, and applies immediately to Venus, the quesited, from the next sign. Venus receives Mars by domicile, and applies to conjunct.

Note, though, that Mercury sits in-between Venus and Mars. The question at the time was, is this a translation or prohibition? Mercury gets to Mars before Venus does. Mercury rules the 11th house of friendship. The planets' placement in the 11th also suggests friendship, rather than romance.

The debate being, of course, that the 11th also represents the house of 'wishes fulfilled', and whether Mercury represented another person (it didn't), or a 'concept' such as friendship, or something else.

The Moon is about to change signs and enter Libra, and it does, after all, conjunct Venus, which would usually be strong testimony for a wish fulfilled.

I figured at the time that something would have to change to allow friendship (Virgo rulership of 11th) to change to romance (Libra rulership), but that it was likely that the man would extend a hand of friendship to her first (Mercury translating).

The 'change', unforeseen by her (or me), was that the man transferred to another department, but not before establishing a warm friendship with her, which promised to continue beyond the workplace, and there were definitely romantic undertones to it. So that part, at least, has proven correct.

What she is now waiting on is whether or not it will develop further than just undertones, per the part-promise of the Moon conjuncting Venus. She keeps me updated regularly on this, so I should have some news reasonably soon.

So here we have the very late Moon, again suggesting a block or a change needed in order to fulfil something properly. This chart is further complicated by the addition of Mercury interfering in a way we haven't quite figured out yet.

I'll keep digging.
AG

[barbh]

I guess there's no way to figure out what the 'change' will be. It makes sense though, that now he is no longer in her department, that something could flourish romantically. The last thing you want to do is canoodle with the guy you work side by side with.....if it goes sideways then its all bad!
Can't wait to hear what happens...

barbh

[starlink]

Thanks for that AG! Really good for learning.

And Barbh, that should be fun indeed. I never really looked at a VOC moon in real life, but will keep an eye on the next one.