Weighing external experience with natal chart influence?

[scarlett_early]

I'm really only a beginner with astrology, but I've been doing some research on my own natal chart, and have constantly been wondering the same thing: which plays a bigger role in shaping a person.. their predestined traits/future laid out for them at birth, or the external influences they experience throughout their childhood/adult life?

I'd love to hear people's thoughts.

I suppose I'm mostly getting at this now, because I've had an especially drama filled childhood, and I guess, I'm just trying to figure out if the troubles I'm trying to conquer now have roots in my childhood, or have more to do with my natal chart, or are a mixed up jumble of both.

Any insight into that would be greatly appreciated as well.

Anyway, this is my first 'real' post. Sorry if I've stepped on some toes.. I'm not sure how this all works. I just thought it might be a good place to go for some discussion, and maybe also some answers. Thanks!

...My chart can be found here:http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-b...States&lang=en

[RayAustin]

There is a similar thread right here, but as I've said, the energies of the natal chart would get modified by genetics (genetics probably being, ancestral behavior patterns--we still don't know *everything* that's encoded in our dna), the parenting, and social conditioning. My reasoning being, in Africa or India for example where most are poor, any chart where someone would be considered wealthy would be modified by the conditions of the culture.

At the same time, I think the energies of the natal chart, genetics, and parenting are one and the same, apart from social conditioning, which would then be the astrological aspects of the country. But in the end, all of this is the same stuff, really.

As far as predestination, I think the natal chart shows what is embodied in the native, and tendencies -- how they are most likely to exercise their free will, but as the chart is archetypal and not exact, the native chooses for the most part how the energies manifest. In my opinion.

[starlink]

Scarlett, welcome to our forum. When you posted your question, a window must have popped up explaining to you what you need to do when posting.
We do expect a small input from your side, lets say, explaining in an astrological sense, what you think has caused the childhood trauma's you told us about.

I will move this post to the Greenhorns Lounge for beginners.

Cheers, Starlink

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Hi Scarlett, I think the birth chart can be a mystical thing. Does it show our future or our past? Does it show our inner selves or the things that happen to us?

There is a popular interpretation technique which involves projection. This states that the natal chart energy cannot be avoided. That energy occurs with the native, but if they do not deal with it it is externalised onto them. For instance a Mars on the DC might suggest that the native is aggressive in relationships, or is very direct and does not like to be subtle. But if the native is unaware of this tendency or avoids it, then they might instead attract others who are agressive or direct.

So often the chart does not show externalities or pre-destined trait. It shows predestined issues, which could end up as externalities or traits. And there is a complex link between them. Our inner make up is also determined to a large degree by externalities and experiences.

If I had a well aspected Mercury in the 3rd house, one might say I was very good at languages. But what if I've only ever been taught one language? This might mean I'm very good with words in that language, even though the chance to learn others was denied to me. To compensate, all that 3rd house energy might manifest by me making new codes or languages, or in some instances, if the rest of the chart is right, by meeting other bi-linguals.

You wrote:

I suppose I'm mostly getting at this now, because I've had an especially drama filled childhood, and I guess, I'm just trying to figure out if the troubles I'm trying to conquer now have roots in my childhood, or have more to do with my natal chart, or are a mixed up jumble of both.

So I would say a mixed up jumble of both- the energy will be there in the chart, but it didn't have to happen the way it happened. Alot of astrologers write that all energy in the chart can be used for good or ill, and I agree in part with that, but being realistic, some things are generally better than others. Often these kinds of problems occur because of perception. The chart often shows how we perceive things- my sister has Pluto in the 4th house. Her experience of our parents was very different to mine- she found them much more intimidating. They treated us the same, but I had Jupiter in the 4th house, so I could deal with this alot better. It could have been so different if my parents actually had been different, or my sister had perceived them differently. But either way the Pluto energy is there in her chart and cannot be got rid of. If she had ignored it and did not try and work with it, it might have manifested in all sorts of crazy ways- our house might have blown up for instance! Rogue Red once posted that each planet is there to teach us a lesson in the chart, and I kind of agree with her.

I hope that helps, sorry for being rather repetitive!

Sundance

[Ajar]

I see the instant of each birth as a multi-dimensional snapshot of the universe.

Each individual creature has a starting place recorded by the celestial bodies, genetics, environment, karma, natural events, and probably much more than we mere humans have yet determined, but I like to think of it as Gods plan.

All of these forces are in motion all the time and how individuals track along with them is determined by the forces themselves, and modified by each individuals will and desires.

How much each force exerts and how much the celestial bodies, free-will, genetics, environment, karma, natural events, etc, effect the life of each individual is one of the many great unanswered questions.

JMO!

[NicholasH]

it's the gemini - sagitarius axis.

gemini lives by experience. life is about experience.

sagitarius lives by archetype (astrology) and theory.

both are necesary and equaly important.

[scarlett_early]

Sorry for originally posting this in the wrong section. And thanks for all the input.. its been very eye-opening. I'd never heard of the idea of projection.. its given me a whole new perspective when I try and look through my chart. Honestly I regret posing this question at all.. I should've known/did know in the back of my mind that of course it must be a complex blend of many factors that influence a person.

(as a tiny bit of background... right now I live in an apartment with my mother and father, who've been divorced for about 2 yrs. now, and are constantly at eachother's throats.. my father is quite cruel to my mother and I, and it seems to effect me much more deeply than it "logically" should. I "ran away" to london a couple years ago.. had my first romance, roomed with best friend, and had my first taste of independence.. it was a truly transformative experience for me.. but had to return to my native california a year ago. I've become increasingly depressed.. I've withdrawn completely from being a social creature.. no contact with friends, stopped going to school, etc. I have a distinct gut feeling that I'm here for a specific reason, if only I could figure out what it was.)

I'm feeling exceptionally stuck and lost at the moment, and so I seem to have turned to astrology to try and make sense of it.

But I should know better -- it all sure does feel like a mixed up jumble of things anyway :P

Thanks again for the insight, and sorry for this lengthy, rambly reply.

edit: to spice this up with some actual info.. I can pin-point some of myself within my chart.. I'm a pisces sun, which I suppose would contribute to my feelings of being lost, and my extreme sensitivity.. i've got mars, saturn, uranus and neptune in the 9th house. 9th house rules spirituality/code of ethics/travel.. that could explain part of my feelings of purpose, and also my desire to travel and live abroad. i've got a scorpio moon.. making me that much more emotional, and also the motivation to pursue astrology and others truths, especially my own. pluto sextile midheaven points to my desire to be significant in one way or another.

the biggest trouble i've run into, is that when reading my chart, quite a bit of it doesn't sound like me.. for example, i have mercury sextile asc (aries) which I read would make me tend to be very social, and be comfortable/enjoy other's company... even seek out the company of others, particular people with original perspectives. but i'm incredibly hermit like. i'm not at al social. i know that other areas of my chart might be effecting/overriding this, but i'm more worried that my abrasive and verbally abusive home-life has caused me to block my true self. and that's really what i'm after. just to be comfortable in my own skin finally, and be who i really am so that i can move forwards.

..this has gotten much more personal than i originally intended. again, i'm sorry if I took this in the wrong direction.

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Hey Scarlett, the best thing about astrology is that it is reflexive- you can adapt it to suit you. So if there are parts of the chart that don't seem to fit you, then as well as looking at the chart again, (some planets are much more important than others, some orbs are wider than others, sextiles are generally weak anyway,) you can interpret the chart to make it fit you. Which house is Mercury in?

I've been told that when one wants to get past an event, the subconscious has to go back to before said event, and re-grow. So depending on how long ago these domestic events happened, this might take some time, or not much time at all.

You also said this:

just to be comfortable in my own skin finally, and be who i really am so that i can move forwards.

That's an elusive goal for anyone. And I guess that's why you started this thread in the first place. I think the chart can tell you the types of energies in your life, and if you haven't manifested these then can be projected onto you. So the only way I can think astrology can help in these situations is to look at the issues which have been projected. Look at the astrological significators for those energies and learn to master them. Then you will be able to control those energies and parts of your chart more effectively. That might make you feel more comfortable with yourself, and you might feel less exposed to externalities.

That aside, the question of who we are shouldn't ultimately be determined by astrology should it? I think for the large part, with all the 9th house energy, you can choose, (rather academically and heroically!) who you want to be, and can strive to be that person.

But if you are looking for a fulfilling life purpose, I think the Node would show that most of all, so read up on that on the education board.

Hope that helps. and if you need any help with the projections, post the chart here, and I or better astrologers will take a look.

[wilsontc]

scarlett,

You said:

Originally Posted by scarlett_early

as a tiny bit of background...quite a bit of it doesn't sound like me.. for example, i have mercury sextile asc...but i'm incredibly hermit like. i'm not at al social...this has gotten much more personal than i originally intended.

So you have Mercury (thinking, also writing, talking) sextile (energy goes easily with) Ascendant (self). This suggests you find it easy to write about yourself...seems like this fits you VERY well! ;D You also have Mercury square (energy needs to be combined with) Moon (home, also emotions) suggesting that when you feel emotionally at dis-ease you lose your ability to talk easily, since your emotions take over your thinking and talking. Again, this sounds like you. And you have Aquarius (friends, also astrology) modifying Mercury focused in the 11th house (friends, also astrology), so maybe you will get the help you need from your "astrology friends" right here!

Explaining the basics,

Tim

[starlink]

Thank you Scarlett for your explanations. This is exactly what I was looking for.

Your "Hermit" side could be explained by your Sun on the cusp of the 12th house (cant really see if it is already inside or not but it is counted anyways as being in the 12th.) What surprised me is the trine to the Moon , ruler of your 4th house! This does not really show a difficult connection between yourself and your early upbringing, apart from that Mercury-Moon square of course. But that is not really a violent sort of aspect at all.

Sun trines Pluto, showing a willingness or ease for self-transformation. Pluto rules your Moon, so here another positive interaction this time between Sun and the ruler of your Moon . Somehow you must have been able to distanciate yourself from the worst, influences in your family, or just knew how to deal with it.

You wrote that before coming back to California, you tasted independence and probably were more yourself, outgoing and social. It is therefore possible that this Hermit behavior right now is indeed not your real self and only temporarily.
Pluto right now is affecting strongly the ruler of your MC, Saturn ,and also Uranus, so it is clear that you are experiencing transformative times right now.
The Saturn-Uranus opposition which is currently in working is affecting your natal Sun as well. Uranus conjuncts your Sun exactly, Saturn opposes it (which could take all your energy away) and in your natal chart, you are having this conjunction in the 9th.

This cant be easy at the moment and because of that Pluto triggering that conjunction, this mental pull between the old and the new, traditional and modern, staying or going, freedom opposed to being stuck in tradition, it all will get jolted and forced to change. This is an important time in your life if you ask me, probably exactly what you have been waiting for, only you dont realize it yet (often the case with Pluto transits).

Starlink

[scarlett_early]

Originally Posted by The_Sundance_Kid

But if you are looking for a fulfilling life purpose, I think the Node would show that most of all, so read up on that on the education board.

I only just started reading up on north/south nodes last night.. its been so fascinating. But it does seem the more I read, the more confused I become - so much to know!

I've found my north node is in pisces, making my south node in virgo. This was a HUGE lightbulb moment for me. I have a lot of trouble calming my mind down.. I worry excessively, often about things that are either completely imagined, or that I have no control over. And I feel like a burden quite often.. Like I'm some sort of damaged good. I found this on another website about virgo south node.. "A tendency to worry unremittingly, to be plagued by vague (and sometimes not so vague) feelings of guilt about under-performing, to lack faith and trust in a larger more spiritual plan, and to over-analyze ourselves and others are some of the issues this position suggests."

I just can't believe I'd never looked into nodes before.

So, with my north node in pisces, I suppose my life's lesson really is to learn to stop over-thinking, and just "be"? I think I already knew that was a lesson I needed to learn.. it was just amazing to see it concretely in my chart.

I'm confused about how to add in the position of planets to the mix though.. I know neptune rules pisces, and my neptune is in capricorn.. mercury (and sometimes chiron I've read?) rules virgo, and my mercury is in aquarius. If someone could help me make sense of this, I'd really appreciate it.

Originally Posted by wilsontc

So you have Mercury (thinking, also writing, talking) sextile (energy goes easily with) Ascendant (self). This suggests you find it easy to write about yourself...seems like this fits you VERY well! ;D

:P I hope I'm not coming off super self-centered.. its just I've never been able to communicate with people who can help answer some of my questions finally. Got to get it all out. This is awfully cathartic actually (thanks!)

Originally Posted by wilsontc

You also have Mercury square (energy needs to be combined with) Moon (home, also emotions) suggesting that when you feel emotionally at dis-ease you lose your ability to talk easily, since your emotions take over your thinking and talking. Again, this sounds like you. And you have Aquarius (friends, also astrology) modifying Mercury focused in the 11th house (friends, also astrology), so maybe you will get the help you need from your "astrology friends" right here!

Thank you so much for seeing this in my chart.. I've always been troubled by the fact that while most people I know seem to benefit from "talking out" their problems.. I've never been comfortable doing that. (although doing this online seems to be working just file (:

Originally Posted by starlink

This is an important time in your life if you ask me, probably exactly what you have been waiting for, only you dont realize it yet (often the case with Pluto transits).

You've been extremely helpful, especially as I just wandered in here and started pouring out all these questions and problems, so, thanks very much. You have no idea how fulfilling it feels to start learning more about this. I've been re-reading your post all morning while staring at my natal chart.. I'm going to have to do a lot of studying.. I can't seem to see these things on my own yet (which is why I appreciate all of you helping me so much!)

[wilsontc]

scarlett,

You said:

Originally Posted by scarlett_early

I've found my north node is in pisces

Also look at the house your North node is in. This indicates where you need to focus your attention.

Nodally,

Tim

[scarlett_early]

This is the chart that I've been working off of : http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-b...States&lang=en

How would I find which house my north node is in? Is it that because my south node is in virgo.. that would make it house 6.. so my north node, pisces would be house 12?

..honestly I'm still a bit unsure I've even figured it right.. I see in the table on the page my chart is on, it says "asc node pisces" ...does that mean north or south node? I also went to this site http://www.cafeastrology.com/northnodetables.html and I believe its telling me my north node is in pisces. i'm getting myself confused :S

(and thanks again for teaching me so much!)

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Hi Scarlett, I'm rather poorly and have to be astro-lite for a while for exam purposes, but I just wanted to say the following things:

1) You are young. I started astrology when I was 16 and it has taken a while for me to learn the meaning of placements. Personalities still develop at that age, there's a whole future out there. What will happen will happen, and often we can't see. We simply have to find the inner courage and faith to find our own path. For instance, when I was 16 I was all about Scorpio, it all resonated with me in my teenage angst, and I thought 'Saturn in 1st?' NO. Then I went to a very cynical university, where no matter what I said my tutor would say, 'yes that's nice in theory and everyone would live happily ever after, but that doesn't answer the question, and that doesn't work in practice.' 3 years of this unlocks an inner Saturn in the 1st house in anyone. And lo cynical Sundance was born. I mention Saturn as in your chart I think it has special relevance- read below. Your Saturn, as a transit, will for the next decade be moving 'up' the chart, which many consider positive and confidence building. And Saturn issues are supposed to clarify somewhat around the age of 28, when Saturn returns to its natal position. So don't worry if you're confused.

2) There was a wonderful link that explained the north node rulership thing, but I can't find it. I will try. But its good that the message resonates.

3) You have Mars conjunct Neptune in Capricorn. I started a thread on this exact placement as alot of my friends have it and I wanted to learn about it too. Maybe you'll find it useful, but remember never to generalise when it comes to your chart, you're too important for that. If it would help you could ask older Mars- Neptune conjunction people how their's worked out, but remember your case is unique as Mars is exalted in Capricorn, and Saturn is also in Capricorn. Mars is also your Ascendant ruler, and Neptune is your sun ruler, so this aspect seems pretty heavyweight.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=13104

4) On its own, Neptune on the MC might suggest ambiguity as to career or what to do with life. You also said Neptune ruled your North Node (Ascending Node is the North Node as far as I'm aware, and yes you're right the South Node is exactly opposite.) To this end there is also another (rather pessimistic thread, but don't let that get you down) thread which has several people discussing their Neptune's conjunct the MC. Some of these people I think are very good at astrology so might be able to help you and give greater understanding than I can.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=13105


5) For what its worth, I personally think that Saturn and the MC/Mars/ Neptune thing is the most important part of your chart, with Saturn being very powerful, albeit in the 9th house. (It rules the 10th.) This might therefore show alot of the issues that might be bothering you the most. And as its the most elevated part of the chart this is normally the 'public' bit, the bit that alot of people can see and interact with. So projection might also be possible. Alot of people connect the MC with a parent too, which might fit your posts, but I'm really bad at parent interpretation so I think others will help you better.

The Venus-Jupiter shows natural skills and traits I think will help resolve the whole Capricorn issues. The Venus and Jupiter houses might also be good ones to grow in and might help you viz Capricorn. Pluto and the moon should be interpreted with regard to Venus and Jupiter.

I think Mercury, and the Sun are perhaps the less important planets. But the sun is conjunct the North Node- so this has a special significance. However I interpret the Nodes separately from the chart in a kind of ethereal transcendent way. Sometimes a cup of Darjeeling in between the normal chart and the nodal and other interpretations helps.

6) So my rather short and simplistic conclusion is: The Capricorn bit shows the biggest issues in your life, maybe causing the biggest problems. To resolve this, as well as mastering those issues themselves, the Venus and Jupiter skills will help, and the Venus and Jupiter areas of your life should be ok. The Venus and Jupiter good times come with moon/ Pluto baggage though.

And even once you've covered all of that, if you want a deeper meaning as to what its all for, and why, then look to the Node.

Good luck

Sundance

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Just realised the orbs on those Venus-Jupiter to Pluto oppositions are very wide. So I don't think the moon-Pluto baggage is attached to Venus Jupiter. I think it is generic baggage, relating to home control issues maybe? And the wider square to Mercury, maybe this shows the home control issues affecting friends, siblings and 6th house- health and work?

Yours, vaguely,

Sundance

[wilsontc]

scarlett,

You asked:

Originally Posted by scarlett_early

How would I find which house my north node is in?

I suggest using http://www.astro.com to create your charts. They are better charts and more useful for astrologers. Attached is your chart created from astro.com. Your North node is in the 12 house (spirituality), indicating you need to develop your spiritual possibilities. More here:
http://northnodeastrology.blogspot.c...orth-node.html

Charting,

Tim

[Polo]

With Mars as the ruler of your chart and Mars conjunct Neptune, you're probably seen as very alluring and mysterious. I bet a lot of people want to you know, maybe intimately.