Symbolic Interpretation of the Parts

[piercethevale]

: alien:

[starlink]

Thank you for sharing this knowledge with us Pierce. I am older and when I find the time, will have a look at these points.

Starlink

[starlink]

Hello Pierce! I seem to be the only Stargazer around at the moment who is answering your long and interesting descriptions and examples of the Part of Catastrophe. I hardly dare find mine in my chart now....!!!! after that hairraising story of Miss X. Have you figured out what your own POC is?

[freedomlover]

Thanks so much for such an interesting thread, Piercethevale!

I've done some checking into Part of Catastrophe in some charts.

I found it highly interesting that a man I know has his Part of Catastrophe at 16*Libra. This is the Sabian Symbol for it:

16º Libra (196): AFTER A STORM, A BOAT LANDING STANDS IN NEED OF RECONSTRUCTION.

At one time, his vocation was in boat construction. He developed an extreme reaction to the paint used on the boats. This triggered an environmental illness that snowballed into him being allergic to almost everything around him and everything he ate. He has spent over a decade recovering from this.

[freedomlover]

Originally Posted by piercethevale

How intresting Freedomlover!
This is a manifestation of this principal on a more 'mundane' level...but why not?
I've oten thought that the sybolism presented can be interpreted in a myriad of ways via the Part or whatever in question.
For people of a more spiritual purpose hereon it I have seen it present itself in more 'spiritual ways' and for people of more worldly missions I've seen it work more as what you've presented here.
I know that some of the symbols will be quite difficult to understand exactly how they may be interpreted as the 'Catastrophe' one should avoid...but I believe that given time and enough case studies there will eventually be enough substance to make some proposals as to the defining of all the symbols as to how they relate to at least the more major Arabic Parts of note and concern.
I find the Parts of Fotune, Benifit & Increase [$], Sudden Advancement, Inheritance & Legacy, Intelligence, and the Part of Servant & Service to be the Parts I find most notable and of the most concern, myself.

Actually, in trying to recover from the whole ordeal, he was launched onto his spiritual path. His true calling is to be a healer. He has the asteroids Hygeia and Asclepius (r) conjunct with in 1 degree in Libra in his 10th house. So, I guess it was a catastrophe with a happy ending, in this case!

I don't have the formulas for the Parts of "Sudden Advancement" and "Servant/Service". Do you happen to have those handy?

FL

[starlink]

Oh goodness Freedomlover, now I really hardly dare figuring out where my POC in my natal chart is situated. Need some courage for this......

[freedomlover]

Originally Posted by starlink

Oh goodness Freedomlover, now I really hardly dare figuring out where my POC in my natal chart is situated. Need some courage for this......

This post sounds like you were replying to my thread entitled "Arabic Parts in Synastry". Is Mercury retro doing a number on you? (Or is doing a number on me.....?)

[freedomlover]

Originally Posted by piercethevale

...for Advancement< Asc + Part of Fortune - Saturn
...for Servant and Service< Asc + Moon - Mercury

...ps, sorry about the 'double post' I last produced. I left the one I had intended which is different from the one you quoted...

Thanks so much for posting those for me, ptv! I will check in to those in my chart ( .... and others)

[starlink]

Astrology: Arabic Parts Astrology Calculator

This might help as well!

Oh Pierce, could you tell me which of the two POC to use?
1. ASC. + - OR

2. ASC. + - ?

Thanks, Starlink

[starlink]

Great! Well, then my PO utter Catastrophe lies at 1°02 Capricorn in my 2nd house. As I have never had a financial catastroph in my life, and I am not the youngest anymore, it therefore has to do with the psychological interpretation of the 2nd, dealing with selfworth (love).
Sabian Symbol for 2° Capri is: Three stained-glass windows in a gothic church, one damaged by war. Right....now what?!
I only have Linda Hills book on the Symbols and she says it has to do with not being able to give or receive love. Giving is no problem at all as I am told so for years, but receiving is another cup of tea. I indeed have difficulties receiving love. I must have been "damaged" and I think that I must have suffered far more than I actually am aware off. I do not remember anything up till the age of 12. Only a few details: getting a pen I loved from a girl in school when I was about 10 I think, a lovely ama (indonesian babysitter) who would pass a giant cricket through my hair (praying crickets they were called) and singing a song and her sleeping on a mat outside my bedroom door. Seeing my babysister in her pram on the patio, the butterflies of my father whom he killed in a glass pot with a poisenous bottom and collected, his greatest hobby, our gardeners killing a giant snake (it was in Indonesia)in our garden. I never forget that. And the highlight of my childhood days, a prima balarina who gave me her dancing shoes, you know, the one's on which you can stand on your big toe. As you see, I can count these memories on the fingers of one hand. Why is this?

I am a person who is happiest when being alone even though I can be very sociable when I have to (and even enjoy it!). But I do feel different from others. I dont really integrate when in a group, I observe instead, even when I am in a lively conversation with someone.

Linda Hill also mentions that psychotherapy or hypnosis as well as past-life regression would bring back horrible details, revealing pain, injury and trauma .(I had one regression done and found out that I was always on my own in different lives and always happy being alone, really weird). Does not sound very nice does it? Wonder what Rudhyar's book says about this symbol. Would you care to tell me please and what you think about it? Is this Part of Catastrophe about what happened to me (apparently, even though I dont really know what it was) or is it about learning to accept love from others because otherwise that would be catastrophic for me? So far (and I am really far in my life) I have been relatively happy except for the occasional ups and downs everybody experiences. I wonder what you think of this degree.

[freedomlover]

Starlink,

Financial catastrophe is not the only interpretation for Part of Catastrophe in Capricorn in the 2nd house. I would offer these additional possibilities:

If you've ever been in a relationship ( esp. with a man) that turned out to be financially based - you were financially dependent on him (like a stay-at-home wife/mom) - but he was not emotionally supportive, nor cared about what your hopes and dreams were - that could have created a catastrophe in your self-worth and relationships with men. A catastrophe does not have to be some big event that happened to you that changed your course. It can be something small and insiduous that affected your self-worth, and thus your whole life.

Since Capricorn has to do with outer appearances, and is in the 2nd house which deals with self-worth, also talents, and beauty - the combo of Cap in the 2nd house can show that you were trained by those around you to focus more on your outer beauty and physical appearance, than on your inner beauty and talents. This can cause one to have their self-worth out of how they look physically - which believe me - is a catastrophe.

My mother instilled this in me - that physical beauty was one of the most important things in life. I've spent over a decade trying to shake it. It gets one focused on how one looks to a man - like, whether or not he thinks I'm pretty - and keeps me in the vibration of men who want a woman because of how her body looks - and not for who she is on the inside.

One other possibility, perhaps you had talents that should have been developed as a child, but were overlooked because it wasn't "something you could make a living it". Thus they remained undeveloped. (Capricorn - money-minded, working for a living) (2nd house - talents). This combo can make one have unrealistic expectations of the level they are supposed to be on in developing their talents, as well.

But overall, the main theme with Cap in the 2nd is getting your self-worth out of a man's approval of you, or out of your ability to perform whatever you're doing to the satisfaction of others.

These things fit in with the meanings of the Sabian Symbol, as well:
Sabian Symbol for 2° Capri is: Three stained-glass windows in a gothic church, one damaged by war.

Gothic church speaks of "tradition" - it is a very Capricorn/Patriarchal system type of symbol. A stained glass window is pretty to look at, but very fragile. (I used to have a Billy Joel lyric in my signature that fit this: "That stained glass window you're hiding behind never lets in the sun")
In addition, if you were raised in a traditional religion - some of the teachings may be negatively impacting you in some way.
The "one damaged by war" implies the damage done to you in your formative years by those who did not appreciate the beauty of the gifts you were born with.


Hope you got something out of all that rambling... I just kept putting the two together, and see what came out of the mix....

FL

[starlink]

Freedomlover, how very kind of you to comment on this and most of it is true I believe. I used to be an ugly duckling, my mother cutting my hair above my ears and all, skinny and crosseyed since the age of 3! But when I reached the age of 15 I changed. My mother was very elegant and I started using her jewelry, sometimes cloth (tops only because she was quite petite) and because I have an artistic talent, I knew how to do my own hair really nicely and let it grow. I got betterlooking glasses and I went on a diet which lasted a year of consistent training and eating half of what I used to. I lost all my puppyfat and started looking attractive, so much so, that I was asked to marry a Spanish doctor when I was 16!! When I said "no sorry", his brother asked the same (they both owned a hotel my parents and I stayed in). Again I declined of course (imagine at that age!) and both really cried!!! Too funny if you think of it lateron

At the same time a model agency approached me and again I said "no thanks". My parents would never have approved anyways and I was scared to death doing something like that. When I was 18 I met my husband and married him at 22. He indeed always wanted me to look the part and I became extremely attentive to my own looks. But indeed, as you also mentioned:

If you've ever been in a relationship ( esp. with a man) that turned out to be financially based - you were financially dependent on him (like a stay-at-home wife/mom) - but he was not emotionally supportive, nor cared about what your hopes and dreams were - that could have created a catastrophe in your self-worth and relationships with men. A catastrophe does not have to be some big event that happened to you that changed your course. It can be something small and insiduous that affected your self-worth, and thus your whole life.

My now ex found a 20 year younger (exact) version of me after 34 years of marriage. Everyone thought it was my sister.(not my daughter thank God).
This showed me that it was all about outer beauty for him and I finally could believe he did not really love me for ME but more for my appearance.

One other possibility, perhaps you had talents that should have been developed as a child, but were overlooked because it wasn't "something you could make a living it". Thus they remained undeveloped. (Capricorn - money-minded, working for a living) (2nd house - talents). This combo can make one have unrealistic expectations of the level they are supposed to be on in developing their talents, as well.

This could also be a possibility. I wanted to become a nurse, always found vacation work in hospitals when in school. but being a nurse was in my days not really a profession for well educated girls (washing naked men and such) so I had to let go. Indeed my parents did not push me enough to prepare myself for a career (I also wanted to make jewelry and there was a very good school where you could study to become a goldsmith). I still am sorry I never did that, I always fiddle around with my old jewelry and create something new from it, as I do with cloth as well.
My father thought that being married was the best thing for me and told my husband (when we were not yet married but engaged for 3 years) when he was finally thinking of marrying me. So that was the end of that. I became a mother.

Thank you for giving me the other possibilities. However, I still think that my window was smashed much earlier on when I was still a (very private, always alone), child. Around the age of 3 my mom took me and my brother for a year away from my father. She had to undergo psychiatric treatment, I was put in a childrens home as she could not cope with both of us). Later we returned. My parents never divorced .

[starlink]

To Pierce:

I was thinking last night. Would a planet in anyone's chart, being in conjunction with the POCatastrophe of someone else, bring "catastrophic" experiences to these individuals? Would the POC of someone else influence that planet's energy (and house=lifecompartment) of that person? or do all arabic parts just show what goes on in your own natal chart.

[freedomlover]

TO: STARLINK

You have indeed led a colorful, yet at times, tragic life. But remember - it's never too late to follow your joy!

Thank you for giving me the other possibilities. However, I still think that my window was smashed much earlier on when I was still a (very private, always alone), child. Around the age of 3 my mom took me and my brother for a year away from my father. She had to undergo psychiatric treatment, I was put in a childrens home as she could not cope with both of us). Later we returned. My parents never divorced .

Yes, I agree, too, that the damage began at an early age, else you probably would not have gone along with some of the choices others encouraged you to make. That's why I wrote:

The "one damaged by war" implies the damage done to you in your formative years by those who did not appreciate the beauty of the gifts you were born with.

What you had to undergo as a result of your mother's illness and your parents problems was very traumatic for a small child. Chances are very good that you did not get the attention you needed, nor the emotional counseling for what you were going through while you were in there. Around age 3 is when the child is just starting to get some sense of personal autonomy. Having your foundations jerked out from under you was very fearful, I'm sure. It possibly left you wondering internally if and when it was going to happen again.

Best wishes,

Freedomlover

[starlink]

Thanks Freedomlover, yes, I think that during that time I lost trust in other peope as my mother had to bring me to that childrens home (not her fault of course) and only my grandfather came to visit me (her father).

And another significant incident happened, when I was 12, we had to leave Indonesia where I lived since I was born there and I was just torn away from that woman who always was like a second mother to me, my babysitter who just stayed with us also after we were no babies anymore. Never saw her again, never heard from her again.

A medium told me that she is now my guardian angel. I found that out as well when I had this regression therapy. There she was, right in front of me. Incredible. All my hidden pain and feeling of loss came out when that happened.

I dont think I was not appreciated for

the beauty of the gifts you were born with.

. My parents did love me though and I had a very proteted childhood, never had the feeling that that was not the case and I indeed have had a very colourful life up till now (I am very much under the number 5 influence wîth two fives in my birthdate. Chaos and excitement as well as constant changes have coloured my life.

[starlink]

This may be interpreted to remain demure and pliant in conflicts with lovers, co-workers, those you congregrate with etc.

I actually never had (in the past) conflict at all with others as I would always bow down and say OK, OK, you win. Nowadays this is different and most certainly after Pluto crossed my Asc. 12 years ago, I have changed a lot and conflict with partner is indeed something I have to deal with as he is so very different from me, but we are both peaceful and after 5 minutes all is forgotten . I have no conflict with people outside the home even though I do nicely tell them that it is my turn if they try to push me away, ha ha).

I dont know. What does Rudhyar say?

[starlink]

Very interesting all this. As to more original interpretations, I have Marc Edmund Jones's book. He gives for Gemini 16: " A woman suffragist haranguing". A symbol of the soul's demand for a full participation in the resposibilities of human society, and of the realization that the values of life are maintained only as there is a mutual give-and-take in respect to every real differenc in point of view. This according to Marc.

I believed he and Wheeler did this thing together, she as medium and him writing down what she told him, so how is Elsie Wheelers interpretation different from his I wonder.

Now to come back to my POCatastrophe, Jones writes: Three stained-glass windows, one damaged by bombardments. His keyword is COMMEMORATION.
This is very different from Rudhyar. He also writes: When positive, the degree is effective self-dramatisation in some vital service to human affairs, and when negative overconservatism and unwarranted fearfulness. Mmmm.....

Ah, I really find it very complicated and I cannot really identify with this Part I must say. Like you said, a difficult to interprete part.
I am not as much into Sabian Symbols as you are, actually use them for certain planets in natal charts and in horary charts where they are often very revealing of what the question is all about.

Thanks Pierce. Nice discussing this with you.

Cheers, Starlink

[starlink]

...the next time my clairvoyant friend and I get together for a reading I'll ask her to 'See' how this should be defined as per this application to said Part. __________________

that would be great and much appreciated Pierce. Thanks!

[freedomlover]

Originally Posted by piercethevale

...I could go on with more examples but I think by now you all get how this works and I wish to encourage all of you to check your own Parts of Sudden Advancement...what attitude or action will produce a 'Sudden Advancement' in your spiritual mission here on Earth?...what will give you that sudden 'Leg Up'?...the Sabians will tell you!

PTV,

Thanks for another informative Sabian Symbol lesson!

My Part of Sudden Advancement is 27'30" Sag in my 12th house. These are the sabians:

27º Sagittarius (267): THE SCULPTOR'S VISION IS TAKING FORM.
28º Sagittarius (268): AN OLD BRIDGE OVER A BEAUTIFUL STREAM IN CONSTANT USE.

I'm not quite sure what to make of it. The 27' symbol speaks more to me. ( I think another forum member says that the preceding degree is relevant in some sort of karmic lesson way? - and that the next higher symbol - the one commonly used - is where you're going - or something like that?)

Do you have any more info for 28' Sag? It's curious that it tightly opposes my Jupiter(r) at 28'48" Gemini in my 6th.....

FL

[starlink]

Hi everyone! I am joining in and my Part of Sudden advancement is:

22° Virgo : "A royal coat of arms enriched with precious stones" (Lynda Hill).

Remarkable how this fits!! especially this: no matter what my actual financial status is, there is the appearance, or the impression, of wealth. (I have never been rich (no millions or anything remotely near that) but I have been always very fortunate and lived well.
Maybe this is thanks to this Part of Advancement sextile my Jupiter at 23.49° in the 12th house, Jupiter being the ruler of my second house of finances and self worth. POA is conjunct my 11th house. No other aspects except wide one (5°) to Moon, also in 12 and ruler of 8th house of inheritances. Yes, now that I look at all this, I do see where my good fortune has come from.

I also, when I was about 18 years old, bought one of those "coat of arms rings" from my first salary, you know, the one to wear on your pinky with the family coat of arms engraved in it, and armed with our family tree which had the enlarged picture of the coat of arms in it, went to the jewelers to have it engraved in that ring! I wore it until I lost it about 12 years ago.Had I only known about Horary at that time!! (maybe still can to see if indeed it was stolen of which I am almost certain). I lost it together with an Aquamarine pendant and earrings and ring and these are the only things I never managed to find back. Everything else I loose, somehow comes back to me, even month later, so I now never get upset over loosing things like that.

I am indeed proud of my heritage ! There is only one family in Holland with my birth surname. There is another familyname which has our familyname added to theirs. This came about in the 16th century when one of the branches of my family only produced daughters and they did not want the family name to die out, so they asked another family if they would please add our family name to that of theirs, which they did.

I am not a snob, thank God, or seeing others as not being worthy(Lynda Hill's "caution" for this part.) I lived too long amongst 3rd world country inhabitants and seeing them struggle for a living and still having that smile on their faces and dancing in the Sun (Dominican Republic being one of them) makes me admire them.

Ah, oh yes, I forgot. How can this symbol help me advance? I dont know really. I think in my case it just shows why I have advanced financially.
Lynda Hill says that adopting a sense of confidence and projecting a sense of nobility will help you (me) overcome any difficulty we (I) might encounter,.
I think I did just that when I decided to leave my husband. I did it in a very nobel way (never asked for a penny) and remaining good friends. In turn he is treating me "royally".

[starlink]

Oh wow Pierce, thank you for your long reply. Yes this Obama degree is indeed very intriguing. Wonder what that means for him! For me it is catastrophe, for him advancement. Quite the puzzle for you Same symbol which has to be interpreted very differently indeed!

Yes, I often think on how fortunate I really am, compared to my brothers and sisters who all have to struggle financially and two of them with mental health problems (for life) which is very very sad of course. I honestly dont know why I deserve this. Probably had a pretty difficult karmic past !! and being rewarded in this life! I do have Chiron in my 12th house, so that could be a possibility. Chiron is also squaring Saturn, really not nice.
Anyways, thanks a lot. You and the Symbols/Parts turns into interesting threads! Nice one.

Cheers, Starlink

[freedomlover]

Originally Posted by piercethevale

...if this be your Part of Sudden Advancement, I would again point to the potential destiny, I mentioned that might be yours, to be of some type of spiritual teacher/instructor/guide in that you would assist people in advancement...a bridge to the other side in your own right...if it be the prior symbol...well, it's almost too obvious what the answer to that must be...and if you read Rudhyars' version you'll realize that Rudhyar employs the previous symbol about the sculptor into the one about the bridge...relating how the person whom projects his/her vision as a sculptor realizes his/her obligatory use of this ability would be to build a bridge for all to use...capiche?

Thanks once again, PTV!

I'm very interested in reading more about what Dane Rudhyar has to say about combining the two symbols meanings. That makes a lot of sense to me.

Yes, all the Sabians certainly seem to be pointing in the same direction. I've known it for some time - just don't know when it will materialize.

My beau's is 24'7 Leo: (conjunct his Uranus in the 8th)

24º Leo (144): TOTALLY CONCENTRATED UPON INNER SPIRITUAL ATTAINMENT, A MAN IS SITTING IN A STATE OF COMPLETE NEGLECT OF HIS BODY.
25º Leo (145): A LARGE CAMEL CROSSING A VAST AND FORBIDDING DESERT.

Notice how both of our "Parts of Sudden Advancement" concern crossing something - mine a bridge over water - his a camel across the desert.

Our Composite 'Part of Sudden Advancement" is at 25'48"Libra - tightly conjunct my MC at 25'31"Libra.

Sabian:25º Libra (205): THE SIGHT OF AN AUTUMN LEAF BRINGS TO A PILGRIM THE SUDDEN REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY OF LIFE AND DEATH.
26º Libra (206): AN EAGLE AND A LARGE WHITE DOVE TURNING INTO EACH OTHER.

Also, my Part of Sudden Advancement at 27' Sag is conjunct our Composite Ascendant at 26' Sag - which in turn is conjunct his Venus at 25'25"Sag.


This is fascinating stuff, PTV!

FL

[freedomlover]

Originally Posted by piercethevale

...some symbols I know all too well. The 25th of Leo is my M.C. and my Part of Fortune...the 25th of Libra is my 12th house cusp.
After interpreting the Symbols for the chart axis... next in interest to me is the 12th house cusp which represents ones answers to the worlds problems.
The 25th deg. of Leo...i.e. the Camel crossing the vast desert symbol, symbolizes well the approach I found myself taking to most areas of my life.
As a kid my parents didn't prescribe to any particular religion other han a general reverance for God. I left collage and went to the Sierra Nevada Mountains and learned the carpentry/construction trade, because of the reknowned philosophy and psych. depts at the collage I attended I was introduced to various philosophies and spiritual teachers but left on my own to explore them as I was pleased to. I was introduced to astrology by my brother and was encouraged into certain areas of it but outside of that I'm pretty much self-trained.

...I had to pretty much arrive at some of these conclusions I have come to concerning areas of astrology on my own...unassisted/uncontaminated...the statements/conclusions of other astrologers I had to learn to corroborate in the same manner...how else would I have been so convinced of what I understand? ...I had to see and understand it for myself.
I got to discover for myself what worked...and if it did I kept it...if it didn't, I discarded it.
This method of discovery and realization is also pretty much what I employed in my philosophical/religious studies.

...Freedomlover, you've provided a fine example of mutual destiny demonstrated through Astrology...it's been interesting and fun to see this data you've shared.

Thanks so much for sharing a bit of how your life and how the Sabians fit in: fascinating! It's interesting, too, that he and I have both followed a similar path as you - as far as the finding our own belief system.

I have learned astrology (and other things) pretty much the way you described - and I understand why I had to learn everything the way I did. IF I was not sure of what I knew and how I came to know it - I would likely not have adopted much of it due to fierce opposition from others.

Yes, it has been very interesting to discover all this with our shared destinies in our charts. It's also been very interesting how you, the one who has taught me how to find all this in our charts, also have such intertwining correspondences in our charts. And then how this all links in with the chart of Jesus that you have....

You mention that the 12th house cusp is very important - the "answer to the world's problems". I'm assuming this also means our "own little world" - our "spiritual solution", as well as our contribution to the greater world? Can you expound on why you feel the 12th house cusp is so significant?

My 12th house cusp is: 12'29" Sagittarius. ( conjunct our Composite POF and Part of Service) Sabian Symbol: 13º Sagittarius (253): A WIDOW'S PAST IS BROUGHT TO LIGHT.

His 12th house cusp is: 25'31" Scorpio - Sabian Symbol: 26º Scorpio (236): INDIANS MAKING CAMP (IN NEW TERRITORY)

Our Composite 12th house cusp Sabian: 3º Sagittarius (243): TWO MEN PLAYING CHESS.

Fascinating stuff.....

Much gratitude again,

Freedomlover

[starlink]

by Pierce]After interpreting the Symbols for the chart axis... next in interest to me is the 12th house cusp which represents ones answers to the worlds problems.

I have not done my axis yet, boy, you make me getting interested in my own chart (I never really bothered, always more interested in other people's charts. Just a general overview of my own chart, never going into details like this.)

Ascendant 26° Scorpio, "American Indians making camp in new territory", (like Freedomlovers hubby)also very typical for my life. I have moved country more often than not and inside those countries moved house also several times, so yes, I had to learn the rues of being in a new environment as Lynda Hill writes for this Symbol. I also have "the need for freedom to live one's life as one wants".

Freedomlover, does some of this also apply to him?

by Pierce]the 25th of Libra is my 12th house cusp.

Pierce, my 12th house cusp is 25°.15' Libra, almost the same as yours. So mine becomes 26 Libra which is that Eagle and the Dove again. Yes, I can identify with this one very much. I always try to tell others that hate feelings won't bring anything, what you give out is what you receive. Indeed I am trying to instill this believe in others. Few people understand my forgiving attitude towards my ex husband.("the way he treated you", how can you!!").
But I realised that by doing so, I never really lost the biggest love of my life. The whole divorce procedure we did together, no lawyers. Even though he is with another women, he calls me repeatedly, we have great conversations (his Merc. trines mine) and he and his wife together with me and my partner and our kids, all get on great! Should I need more money, I can always count on him he told me.

[flea]

PTV... EJ and FL put me onto this thread.... and am reading with interest and applying it.

What a fascinating way of seeing the same old things from different perspectives.

Thankyou very much for this thread.

FleaXX