Austism

[Arian Maverick]

Now that I finally have my brother's correct natal data, I am curious to see if there are any planetary placements or aspects in his new chart that may indicate autism.

Shawn no longer has any planets in his twelfth house, yet his third house Chiron in Gemini appears to be the most promising indicator I have found thus. However, I am slightly perplexed by his first house Mercury in Aries, although I believe it to be very significant that his Mercury shares the same degree and sabian symbol as my own. Although our natal Uranus and Chiron are located in different signs, they are both conjunct our Midheaven and Nadir, respectively. Finally, Shawn also has that awesome eighth-house Pluto in Scorpio :twisted:



Arian Maverick

[blumen]

mmmmm, medical is the most difficult branch of astrology, and one I do not practice. Anyway I would look at that T-square.

AC conj. Jupiter/Venus/Saturn. Involving the lord of the 8th house/cronic conditions (Venus), the lord of the 12th house, Uranus.

Also note how Pluto is in the 8th, and look at that opposition along the 2nd/8th house axis,

Blumen

[Frisiangal]

Hi,
Autism has been associated with with joint Moon, Mercury, Saturn and Uranus factors. The disassociation from one's environment could be found in Neptune.
It is particularly intriguing that, in this horoscope, the mental disassociation with feeling correlates with Black Moon Lilith on approx. 7 Gemini and aspects it makes.

Which planet do you associate yourself with in his chart, Arian Maverick ?

F.

[Arian Maverick]

Which planet do you associate yourself with in his chart, Arian Maverick?

That's a very good question...I think I mostly associate myself with his natal Mercury, not only because it is located on the same degree as my own, but also because I have striven to achieve intellectual pursuits on his behalf for most of my life.

Arian Maverick

[Lunar Pisces]

Sorry I haven't seen this thread until now.

Is your brother dx'd with autism? If so, what is his specific dx (i.e., LFA, PDD, Asperger's) and what, if any, comorbid conditions does he have (i.e., NVLD, EFD, ADD, depression, OCD)? I haven't seen you post elsewhere about your brother, so pardon me if you've posted this already.


I ask this because I have Asperger's with EFD (Executive Function Disorder, relates to planning and emotional control) and chronic depression/PTSD. I may also very likely have NVLD (non-verbal learning disorder, relates to sensory problems, motor skills and cognitive functioning). By comparison of how autism and Asperger's are often portrayed as in the media, I'm highly functional - I just have a plethora of issues.

Frisiangal is right about the joint association...which means, LOL, that just about everything in the chart factors in! That actually makes sense to someone, like me, with this condition: while others tend to see this as a specific "defect" we autistic have that makes us not like normal people, autistics usually are very aware that this is who and what we are. It affects how we think, percieve, understand, reason, make choices and feel. In any autistic, autism is critical to our individuality and personality. Take away our autism, and you could be very well be taking away our souls (hence why some of us get very rattled at the mention of finding a "cure" for autism). In pathology, you could say autism is "pervasive," meaning its affects are not isolated to one area or the "sufferer's" life. I personally don't see my autism as a disease or a defect. While I don't deny that some people do struggle considerably with more severe forms of autism, I have come to recognize that for me, I am simply not like the rest of the "neurotypical" population.

Much of my difficulties stem not from my condition in and of itself, but from living in a world that doesn't understanding my difference. My depression, for example, is actually much more challenging to cope with than autism. But it is rooted not in my Asperger's, but in my lifelong experiences of feelings of being misunderstood, rejected, alienated and even abused (hence the PTSD) - sadly, experiences that many autistic share, and like me, have condiitoned to think ourselves as "defective" and perhaps even "unwanted" or "unloved." I feel I need to say this, because too many, even autistics themselves, see such self-esteem and self-worth issues as a symptom of austism, when it's not. It's a psychological condition in and of itself.

Anyhow, looking for clues for autism in a chart is a bit like those treasure hunt games you played when you were a kid. You get a list of stuff to find, and you have to go to different places to get the different things, and then you return to homebase and solve the riddle. Every autistic chart is unique in the set of clues you get - autism is a "spectrum" condition, so it manifests is a very broad and highly indvidualistic way in any one person.

In my experience, here's what I've found associated with autistic charts (so far):

- Mercury is often prominent in some way and usually in a major aspect with Uranus. This seems to indicate the heart of autisism: it is a neurological difference that sets the native apart from others. A strong Merc-Uranus connection usually makes a person very cerebral, possibly "left brain" dominant. Austism is associated with highly systematic and objective thinking, which is very "left brain." Also, this implies a deep inner emotional detachment - while autistics aren't unemotional (far from it!), we often have difficulty expressing, understanding and even relating to our own emotions. Your brother's Mercury isn't as prominent as mine, but we both have our Mercs in angular houses and trining Uranus in an agular house. Actually the parallels between our two charts is pretty surprising (don't expect to find to this often when comparing autistic charts though): His Uranus conjuncts his MC and his Mercury's intercepted in the 1st, while my Merc conjunct my MC and my Uranus is intercepted in the 1st. Wild, huh?

- If Uranus doesn't majorly aspect Mercury, it could be prominent on its own. In addition to making autistics social oddballs, oblivious nonconformists, tech wizzes and computer geeks, Uranus seems to greatly impact many autistics' sexuality. Austistics, especially ones with Asperger's, often have very Uranian sexualities. We tend to be very open, even progressive about sexuality, and have difficulty relating to social conventions about sex and gender. Many autistics are bi or gay, or simply ambiguous either sexually or gender wise. While I don't know about your brother, I'm hetero, although I do seem very masculine or ambiguous to many people. I do have many gender-crossing traits and even interests, and I am very laid back about nonconventional sexualities and gender roles. Note that my Uranus is in the 1st, a cardinal singleton and part of a air grand trine.

- Significant Venus and Saturn connection, usually involving some degree of affliction on Venus. Even if the two aren't aspecting each other, look for rulership by sign or house (i.e., a Cap Venus, or Venus in the 10th for example). This seems to relate to difficulty with reciprocity, empathy, and social skills. It may even relate to other common autistic traits like the monotone voice and the inabilities to "get" unspoken, unwritten social behavior. Autistics tend rely heavily on rules and routine (Saturn), and have difficulties coping iwth change. We are easily affected by subtle changes in our environment (Venus). Afflicted Venusian senses tend to manifest in light and sound hypersensivities, even sensory intolerances to certain fabrics and food. In your brother's and mine charts, the connection between Saturn and Venus is easy and obvious: His Saturn opposes his Venus, while mine are conjunct each other. Add that our venuses are both is a mutable sign (and Mercurial), our Venuses should be considered afflicted by Saturn in both charts.

- Now, look for Venus-Mercury connections. By itself a Venus-Mercury conncetion is nothing out of the ordinary. But is you have a Saturn afflicted Venus with a Mercury connection, tend you have something. The commonplace autistic sensory issues like I listed above often start with Venus and relate back to Mercury in some way, such as having Venus in a Mercurial sign (which your brother and I both have) or a Mercurial house (as your brother does). In some cases you have Venus being aspected by another planet in a Mercurial sign. A Venus-Mercury connection may suggest stronger tendencies toward autistic sensory "overloads" that lead to emotinal fits or withdrawal. I suspect that for your brother, this may be worse for him than it is for me.

- Moon is often afflicted by aspect, and often afflicted by earth. Liek the Venus-Sat connection, this relates to difficulty in emotional expression and social development.Usually you find either one or the other - either the Saturn-Venus connection or the afflicted moon - but hey, lookie, we've got both! You brother's got a Cap moon (in fall), conjunct Mars. I have Pisces moon oppsed by Virgo Pluto - very intruiging, seeing Pluto's a bit like a feminine Mars.

- Some connection between Neptune and Sun or moon (or both), or is is in some way very prominent. Neptune relates to intuition and alienation. Autistics, although caracturized as being very obvious and hyperrational, actually are a profoundly intuitive bunch. We sense things to levels that mystfy ourselves and others. Often times, we are at odds with our own intuition, but that's usually an indicator of just how strong our intuition can be (i.e., overwhelming at times). Also, most autistic feel alienated, out of place - they sometimes call this condition the "Wrong Planet syndrome" as in we're actually not humans, but aliens that ended up on Earth by mistake, Also very Neptunian. Neptune aspecting a luminary seems very common, but so are Netpune singletons. In your brother's case, there's nep trining Sun, and sign conjunct his moon. In my case, I have a Neptune singleton that rules my Pisces moon by sign.

- Neptune, Saturn, and Uranus seem to all factor into the tale-tell "obsessiveness" "narrow interests" or "hyperfocus." I haven't yet pinpointed more specific traits, but seeing obsession and interests can vary greatly from person to person, this may be tough to nail down. My obsessions tend to be varied, very cerebral and go through a "cycle" - in my case, this may suggest my Merc/Mars/Uranus air grand trine is involved.

- CHiron usually doesn't represent autism itself, but can represents the long term psycholiocal and spiritual affects of living with autism in a world that';s doesn't understand our condition. In my case, I have Chiron in the 8th: I suffer from depression (very common among high functioning autistics) and PTSD, rom being abused ina treatment center when I was a teen. My psychological scars from being badly treated by people who didn't understand me run very deep. I have a very 8th house sense of mistrust and suspicion of others. In your brother's case, I can only speculate: a 3rd house Chiron in Gemini may mean your brother's ability to communicate witht eh outside world is impaired by psychological or spiritual injury or baggage. Perhaps, if he's high functioning, he's developed a deep Geminian cynicism about others, especially about their intelligence or lack thereof, perhaps thinking people are hopelessly stupid and could never understand him.

Of course this isn't meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It's really a starting point, and I'm sure even what I've said here needs some firther tweaking and refinement. Autism's pretty new in terms of public awareness, so astrolgoers are still getting their feet wet on this one.

[Arian Maverick]

Wow! Thank you for writing such an insightful post!

Is your brother dx'd with autism? If so, what is his specific dx (i.e., LFA, PDD, Asperger's) and what, if any, comorbid conditions does he have (i.e., NVLD, EFD, ADD, depression, OCD)? I haven't seen you post elsewhere about your brother, so pardon me if you've posted this already.

Since my brother is three years my senior, and I was not yet born when my parents witnessed his terrible reaction to a DPT shot after which he never fully recovered, I am not confident about the details of his disorder. Indeed, I have been told that specialists were initially reluctant to classify him as autistic, as they believed that such individuals could not cultivate meaningful relationships. This is absurd, is it not? :evil:

Perhaps I should better describe the severity of his disorder:

• Although my family suspects that Shawn may be able to recognize certain phrases, especially the titles of videos of which he is particularly fond, he certainly cannot read.
  
  Shawn has difficulty writing his own name, and for him to achieve any degree of legibility, another person must manually move his hand to form each individual letter.
  
  Although he is surprisingly capable in following verbal directions, especially those involving the retrieval of certain items of food, Shawn cannot participate in a conversation by any normal means. He is echolalic, which means that his main form of communication is repeating back certain words he hears.

I know that I have described my brother's disability in extensive detail throughout several threads, but unfortunately, I cannot seem to locate any of them.

Thank you for your compassion and honesty.

Arian Maverick

[Lunar Pisces]

I take it a DPT shot is a vaccination? While there's tons of info...rather misinfo around about a supposed vaccination link ot autism, there's too many holes in the theory for it be creditable. For example, autism/Asperger's runs in both side of my family, and well before the invention of mercury-based vaccinations. There has been no siginificant increase in the occurence of autism in my family in generations after the the introduction of these vaccination. What is more likely a cause in the supposed "increase" in autism is likely a joint effect of 1) more awareness amd acceptence of the condition (realize that before there was a name for it, autistics were usually label slow or retard, dx'd as schizophrenics or sociopaths, or locked up in sanitoriums) 2) genetic predisposition from one or both parents and 3) a culminitive effect of environment and/or hormonal changes that effect the baby in utero.

Autism is present at birth, although the developmental issues it can cause doesn't manifest until the child begins to actually develop. The severity of autism may be affected by conditions after birth, but since autism has to do with how the brain is actually wired in the first place, its presence is there as soon as a fetus develops a functional brain. It's not the result of brain damage from toxins, injury or disease. From what you describe, it sound like your brother had brain damage resulting from a allergic, seizure or seizure-like reaction, and this is not autism.

So, while the traits you list overlap with autism/Asperger's, there's a whole vast assortment of developmental condition that overlap with autism: various forms of dyspaxia can cause problems with fine motor skills, and unlike autism, some of these can be induced by injury or disease, for example. Granted, in my experience as a special ed teacher, I've come across children dx'd with autism who didn't present autism naturally, but had something induce development delays - it seems that in recent years, autism has become an "umbrella" dx for a potpourri of neurological conditions that are autistic-like but not exactly autism.

Another thing is, regrettably, that some parents prefer the idea of autism to other dx's or conditions that cause similar development problems. Autism, in the original understanding of it, can cause developmetal delays, inparticular forming social skills, but it isn't "mental retardation," which is a label that holds a lot of stigma in our culture. I have a friend who's son was born with an underdeveloped brain, and is actually "retarded", but she always says it's autism, even though doctors have told her it's not. It just a little frustrating for me, because I do have autism, and she often wants my insight into living with autism, when it clearly wouldn't apply to her son. :?

ANyhow, I'm rabbling. Seeing I live with this condition, it's important to me and I have my opinions on the matter. As for your brother's chart, I could see the potential of autism there, but like I said, my observations need refinement, so I could be just be seeing an unusual mental capacity or I could be forcing my interpretation because I wanted to find autism there. It's certainly debatable. But the Merc-Uranus trine is intriguing to me. I normally just stick to psychological astrology, but a horary or predictive astroger might have some interesting insight on this.

[Frisiangal]

Lunar Pisces,

I'd like to say a personal thank you for your very enlightening and instructive, as well as astrologically informative post regarding autism. Apart from 'Rainman' my only source for Autism was a client many, many years ago who worked with autistic children. She left me with the impression that autism was a non-relational, non-communicative, emotionally distant condition, whereby the autistic person was unable to function 'normally' in the world.
Your post has ripped away the blinkers of ignorance because the above
misinformation hardly applies to yourself and your ability to produce a clear, concise, and emotionally involved account of the 'disorder'.

Many, many thanks.

Christine..

[franklin taylor]

Arian,
Blumen's first entry; " I would look at that T-square."
was heading the right direction when talking about the T-squares. It's not the planets though its the quality that needs to be considered. According to Diane Cramer's book 'How to give an Astrological Health Reading', Mutable T-Squares give a proneness to Nervous System problems which you probably know Autism is a complication of a neurological disorder of the brain. Angular Uranus, (in his tenth house), is supposed to be another indicator of Nervous system disorders. Saturn or Neptune in a Mutable sign his Sagittarius. Your brother's Arian Mercury with hard aspects (Mars and the Moon) is suppose to be another. Also Mercury afflicting the Moon (his Square between them) indicate nervous disorders. There are others mentioned that I don't see in his Chart, but my goodness, He has plenty of them already. Poor guy.
Take Care.
Franklin

[franklin taylor]

Arian,
I don't know why some of my Info didn't up take. He has two Mutable T-squares that are within the eight degree orb. Jupiter, Saturn, Chiron, and Jupiter, Uranus, and Chiron. I had said I would not be suprised that if someday his Chiron in the third house would indicate such problems. I wouldn't think there was anything much more a serious impedement or obstacle (Chiron's Wounding, especially an afflicted Chiron like your brother's) to 3rd concerns (communication) than Autism. But that part is just my opinion. I have a good handle on how Chiron works in my life through all my own disabilities. Probably would not have seen them if I was healthy, but again that's just me. Maybe he'll have the healing part of Chiron someday as well, but the healing may be the "healing Courage" he inspires in others around him helping them to go on in their lives.
Take Care, and all the best to him and you and your family.
Franklin

[Miss Saturn]

Hi Arien,

I looked in my book of key words for Astrology that I have and the planet associated with Autism is Uranus.

Although as you know I am no expert Astrologer, But I will try to give my imput on it.

You have to find at least three possible indications in a chart for a health issue like your brothers.

The first is Uranus conjunct the M.C. Uranus (being outer world how others see us) but your brothers Uranus rules the 12th house of inner world/Confinement/Subconscious.

The Sun rules the sixth house of health. Your brothers Sun opposes Pluto in the 8th living in a deep hidden world. This is an even stronger influence because Pluto being in the house it rules. This aspect linking back to your brothers health.

The third I would have to think Chiron in Gemini in the third a wound to the intellect mind. Opposing Uranus planet for Autism.

Miss S

[Arian Maverick]

Oh dear...it seems that several indications you have given for my brother's autism are apparent in my natal chart also!

The first is Uranus conjunct the M.C. Uranus (being outer world how others see us) but your brothers Uranus rules the 12th house of inner world/Confinement/Subconscious.'

The Sun rules the sixth house of health. Your brothers Sun opposes Pluto in the 8th living in a deep hidden world. This is an even stronger influence because Pluto being in the house it rules. This aspect linking back to your brothers health.

The third I would have to think Chiron in Gemini in the third a wound to the intellect mind. Opposing Uranus planet for Autism.

Arian Maverick

[Miss Saturn]

Wow your charts are so similar, there must be something else that makes the difference then. But you are affected with the issues personally because he is your brother. I will look at your chart and your brothers chart to see.

It is hard looking for a health issue in a chart, I think the aspects are relavent to a point, but yes since you have the same aspects and you do not have Autism there is still something missing.

I will go and have a look at your chart. Maybe something that links in your chart with your brother having this condition is there.

Miss S

[Arian Maverick]

Perhaps the similarity of our natal charts verifies a suspicion I have had for years: I have a susceptibility to autism in my genes and may have reacted adversely to the vaccination he received as an infant.

Arian Maverick

[Miss Saturn]

Arien,

Yes you have a couple of placements the same. But they are different.

Firstly your chiron is not in the third house. Your brothers is. Your Chiron is in the 4th house, wound affecting inner world/homelife and Uranus is opposing chiron in the 4th. Your brothers Chiron is in Gemini, yours is in Cancer. Chiron is affecting your brothers intellect, your chiron is affecting your family home.

The Sun is the ruler of your 6th house of health but it does not oppose Pluto in the 8th house. Your brother does have this opposition. Again the link to the deeper world he lives in.

You have a Mercury Square Saturn I can imagine the heavy burden placed on you to achieve I am not saying your parents place this burden on you. Possibly you place this burden on yourself. Maybe because of your brothers condition, you feel the responsibilty layed upon you to succeed.

I can't really comment because I do not fully understand Autism and the affect it has had on your family.

Miss S

[Miss Saturn]

I had another look at your chart and you do have a deep wound concerning the family and it all links up to Uranus. Chiron in Cancer placed in 4th and sqaure Moon in your first house.

The only thing I can see in your chart possibly for your brothers Autism, is the Mercury Square Saturn/Neptune. which could mean sibling lost reality of outer world. I am sorry for guessing like this I really do not mean to be insensitive. I know you are curious for where the Autism shows up in the Natal chart for you both. As I would be if it was affecting my family.

Miss S

[Arian Maverick]

You have a Mercury Square Saturn I can imagine the heavy burden placed on you to achieve I am not saying your parents place this burden on you. Possibly you place this burden on yourself. Maybe because of your brothers condition, you feel the responsibilty layed upon you to succeed.

My goodness, this reminds me of an old post in the thread I Have Been Using The Wrong Natal Chart This Entire Time!!!:

Thanks for your honest advice, Lunar Pisces.

This has been an incredibly difficult experience to me, as I have been forced to see myself as a different person than I thought I was. Perhaps I was simply deluding myself; after all, I have been in denial of my Arian traits since my very first encounter with the astrology and the zodiac. What does one do when they detest the very essence of who they are? I've always wanted to be a native of a more intellectual sign because this is something I once valued over all other human gifts or characteristics--even kindness or empathy. I thought myself to be worthless if I did not prove myself to have a brilliant mind or exceptional academic skills. Aries has so many negative characteristics, and I fear I embody them all. I despise these weaknesses, particularly the role of Aries as the baby of the zodiac. I am the youngest child in my family, but I never truly identified myself with this role.

You inquired about any brothers and sisters. Well, I only have one brother, and as you may know from my previous posts on this forum, he is severely autistic. I suspect he may be able to recognize some very basic word patterns, but he certainly cannot read; he does not even possess the verbal communication skills of a three-year-old. He can dress himself, but he cannot tell if his clothes are on backwards. He can certainly feed himself, but we would never trust him to use a stove. In other words, our childhood was comprised of reversed roles and I instinctively, intuitively knew my duty; I often referred to myself as his "big little sister."

You may be wondering if I have a point to make, or if I am simply rambling. Well, I don't consider myself to be a child; I don't believe I've ever had this mindset. I clearly recall my mother asking me what I wanted to be when I grew up, and I did not hesitate in my answer. I wanted to be a doctor, so I could find a cure for autism. I believe I was five years old at the time...innocent, yes, but I had an inkling of the pain my brother's ailment caused to my family and I vowed to rectify the situation in whatever way I could.

I could continue with lots of other major and minor turning points in my life, such as the day I told my mother that I could no longer go outside to play with the neighborhood children because I had to focus on my school work or my initiation into the Gifted and Talented program at my school, which I later professed to my mother was the best day of my life. I could also expound at length about my increasing desperation throughout the years, but that is a discussion for another time.

I am not a child, and I don't think that I ever was. In this way, I don't think that Aries suits me at all...I have had too many close encounters and have seen too much pain. I understand that everyone must go through their trials regardless of their astrological association, but I simply feel that I do not relate to the Aries energy on many levels. There is something deeper than all of the childness associated with the sign...and that's another thing. I hate the stereotypes, the labels slapped on to each sign. I feel that Aries doesn't get the respect it should.

I am unsure if this makes any sense to anyone besides--or perhaps even exluding--myself, but I simply don't care anymore. Typecast me if you wish, I am well accustomed to it. I'm just another dumb blonde, just another angst-ridden teen, right?

Perhaps I should delete this message, have it disappear into the obscurity of my computer's memory rather than posted for the entire world to see. But I don't think I even care enough to censor myself anymore.

Arian Maverick

[Miss Saturn]

Hi Arien,

You have so many planets all sqauring Saturn Sun, Moon, Mercury and Venus.
You also have Saturn in Capricorn it is no wonder you have never felt like a child.

All this heavy responsibility. Anyone even with a little bit of knowledge can tell you are not the typical Arien, which such heavy placements on all of your personal planets accept for Mars stangely enough and Pluto they don't recieve heavy aspects just minor ones.

I can understand a little bit about not feeling like a child when you were younger because of my own Saturn. Saturn is affecting you on so many levesl (you can have my name if you want might suit you better).

Here is something I read on the Mercury Saturn placement, you might be able to relate to some of it.

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It seems to me that Mercury like the 3rd house, describes siblings and their influence on us. Drawing connections between various meanings of Mercury, I have seen how crucial siblings are in shaping communication and language patterns in youth. A brother or sister may play into a persons sense of mental inadequacy.

Perhaps you had to be the older sibling who had to be the family hero and role model. The perfectionism of the parents may make the child feel anxious and inadequate in school and yet also provide motivation to work hard.

To win the approval of authority figures, many of these people attempt skills too advanced for thier age, then compare themselves with teachers rather than peers. Their drive to master these ideas and skills take them beyond the familys educational background, often past their own comfort level. These aspects are the hallmark of people who climb the ladder of success because of mental accomplishments, yet remain insecure about their intellect.

A young woman in psychtherapy with me was getting her ph.D. in physics and taught undergraduate sections of the subject, yet she was convinced she was stupid.

The Mercury Saturn square brings more tension about mental pursuits, often with greater anxiety about tests and challenges. When a sign is square a youngsters thinking and communication are at odds with the demands of parents, siblings, or teachers (Saturn).

I have known a number of people with Mercury-Saturn sqaures who mispronounce big words habitually, not seeming to hear when the correct pronunciation is modeled. Often climbing above the familys educational level, they fasten onto a word they have never read and never used. They can mispronounce it, yearning to be accepted by more educated models with larger vocabularies. To end uncertainty, they become rigid in their mistakes.

To grasp the conflicts that the square represents contrast the qualities of the two signs, suppose the square is in multable signs, between Saturn in Virgo Mercury in Sagitarius. The parent or teacher represented by Saturn demands detailed explanations and precise speech and thought. The child ignores detail, leaps ahead to the broader picture, and exaggerates in a burst of enthusiasm. The elder is critical and pulls the childs ideas apart with devastating accuracy.

Like other Mercury-Saturn aspects, these youngsters grow up doubting their intellectual abilities. With Multable signs the capacity to correct errors and adapt to new learning settings is greater. The person with Mercury in Sagitarius forever seeks mental growth and searches for answers. The Saturn in Virgo facet of their nature spots the flaws in their own theories and refines them.

Squares in cardinal signs are dynamic, compelled to resolve tension through action. Suppose Mercury is in Aries, signifying a mind that is apt to jump to conclusions and act without deliberation. Often politically or socially naive, combative or competitive, these outspoken natives let fire impulsively, heedless of consequences.

These traits aren't likely to charm authority figures. The situation becomes even worse when we add Saturn in Cancer. Here we get the impression of an easily alarmed parent or older sibling who hovers anxiously, wringing their hands over the latest escapades.

As these natives mature, the voice of caution becomes internal. Their Mercury in Aries still hungers to blaze trails and explore new ideas, while their Saturn in Cancer worries over consequences of a paticular trend or thought. Action wins out, most likely but with the glance over the shoulder to ensure safety. The result can be a canny risk -taker when it come to thought and communication, one who knows exactly how far to push the envelope.

With both squares and oppositions, there is a third party who isn't to keen in the path the native yearns to take. That second party is chosen as an extension of the inner conflict, a mirror of the tugs and pulls between two distinct parts of the natives psyche. That's a good thing to remeber when we are tempted to blame others for the consequences of our own choices-and squares do incline consequences until we learn our lessons. Clues to the sources of these conflicts can be found in the houses involved in these squares.

Just a little bit more explanation on the aspect. It does seem you carry such a heavy weight on yourself your expectations. If I was even half as intelligent as you I would be glad. But I don't have a Mercury/Saturn. With my Sun Saturn I feel myself as a failure I don't take criticism very well, I see it as a personal attack on my self.

All the signs get critcised at some level Pisces can be seen as wishy washy soft and sentimental. Poor little Pisces, I have a strong Pisces chart but you have to mix the Saturn up with me as well. I can be a serious determind Miss at times with more strength than I am given credit for. I hate it if I am treated like a little girl or feel patronised. I hate it when people think they can walk all over me they see my gentle side and try to take advantage of my kindness. Use your Saturn to your advantage. Focus on the positive qualities of Saturn and aspire to develop them.

Miss S

[Arian Maverick]

All I can say in response to your post is, yes to everything!

Perhaps I will attempt to write a better response when I have overcome my shock and regain my mental facilities...

Arian Maverick

[franklin taylor]

Hello,
The quote:
A young woman in psychotherapy with me was getting her ph.D. in physics and taught undergraduate sections of the subject, yet she was convinced she was stupid
I have read Donna Cunningham's 'How to Read Your Astrological Chart"
She is refering to a conjunction of Saturn and Mercury in the 9th house not a square. Donna has a unique way of presenting Chart interpetations.
Take Care.
Franklin

[Miss Saturn]

Franklin,

yes the quote was about the conjunction, but the actual text is about the aspect. All the informtion is very relevant to Ariens aspect of Mercury/Saturn. Obviously we all know how intelligent Arien is so I used the quote as a very good descscription of how clever these people can be and still believe they are stupid. If you read the book Franklin Donna talks about the aspect first and then talks about the square, as you can read from my text I have not listed an explanation down for the conjunction, opposition or soft aspect. So yes this one little aspect is a conjunction.

Here is alittle more text Franklin of how this aspect works from the book Aspects in Astrology by Sue Tompkins

[deleted copyrighted text posted without owner's permission - Moderator]

My Father who died 9yrs ago had this aspect, although he was not an academic like Arien. He could not spell very well. My father had a deep fear of filling in application or forms, if he went somewhere and they handed him a form he would get very anxious, worried and sometimes he would drive home and have us help him fill the form in. Imagine how this felt for my Father, he was not stupid by any means he didn't have the education that we have today.

He would spend a long time perfecting any letters he had to write. He would read a book or a piece of information over and over again. My father would never apply for any higher position at his workplace, even when people would more or less guarantee him the position. He was put off incase he had to fill in an application or the job involved any writing.

A couple of years before my Father died he did get quite depressed, I think he felt more of a failure not being able to work and provide for the Family. My father was not as Academic as Arien he was a hard working man, but the mental fear is the same, the anxiousness is the same whether your a top academic or work in a less intellectual enviroment.

I have felt this aspect on a personal level with my Father. I know how it affected his day to day life. My role model in life doubted his own abilities, I am perhaps the same with my Sun/Saturn I don't believe in myself either.

Miss S

[Miss Saturn]

I seem to be taking things very seriously this week I apologize if I am feeling a bit defensive and on the attack. I apologize to Radu as well as I took his advice as a personal attack. I understand he did not mean it this way. I don't know what it is with me lately. So watch out (just kidding).

[Howl]

Miss S on the rampage, haha! Don't mess with Saturn, it will mess back

[Miss Saturn]

Oh, ha ha ha Howl, right that's it your next on my hit list . Just kidding I am harmless, I went out with a Sun Scorpio, Sun Square Pluto. Now if I am defensive he was worse. You could never get through to the real him no matter how hard you tried. Revengeful to the extreme. He had this real dark penetrating gaze. Obviously I was attracted to him having the Venus Square Pluto I love complete psycho's. The darker the better. I am not like that anymore though. These type of men can stay away from me.

Anyway back to the subject I shall use my Venus Pluto manipulative deadly charm to get everyone back on my side ha ha

Miss S

[Howl]

Nice work, don't tell anyone, that venus pluto is my secret weapon too