Obama and the quincunx problem

[Mr stellium]

The major problem for astrologers who call the election for Barack Obama is the lack of positive activity at his progressed angles. Previous milestones in his political career are all marked by undoubtedly positive indicators:

Graduated from Harvard: Progressed Asc 25 Pisces sextile natal Saturn at 25 Capricorn.

First elected to Illinois State Senate in 1995: Progressed IC conjunction natal Venus

Elected to US state senate in 2004: Progressed Asc (12 aries) trine natal Sun (12 Leo)

And next we come to the biggest potential milestone of them all - being elected President. And what do we find?

A paltry negative quincunx aspect: Progressed MC (12 Cap) quincunx natal Sun (12 Leo)

According to cafeastrology some keywords of the quincunx aspect are: redirecting, challenging, requiring adjustments, diverting.

So we could say Obama's ambitions will be "redirected" but not in the direction he wants, or a "challenging" result for him or a resut "requiring adjusments" or his ambitions "diverted" - basically he loses the election. How do astrologers on this forum explain this conundrum?

In addition heres more astrology against an Obama victory:

Obama's Sun: 12 Leo
Election day S.Node: 13 Leo

Destined (S.Node) failure of grandiose ambitions (Leo Sun)

Progressed Moon: 16 Aqu 18
Transit Chiron: 16 Aqu 05

Emotional (Moon) turmoil(with Chiron) after election defeat affecting physical health as both move towards his Asc.

Obama's ascendant: 18 Aqu 03
Transit Saturn: 18 Vir 27 (another quincunx!)

This quincunx will be building over the last 15 days of the election (exact on October 25th) and will still be partile (within the same degree) on election day. This is also negative for the physical vitality and I believe his support will begin to fall, particularly in the last 10 days.

I still call the election for John McCain (provided he does not suffer a health scare right before the election)

[Awakened_Pisces]

The South Node does not represent failure. In Karmic Astrology. South Node represents your past. The past your trying to get away from. Is it possible that many will be turned off by Obama during these last few weeks? Possible. Automatic Failure? Uh, no that's not what the S.Node is for. For that. Look at squares/oppositions, etc.

An Quincunx is by all means considered a minor transit. Perhaps you can read this as numerous number of minor hits against Obama?

There is no way Obama fails. His Natal Aquarius energy(and the energy Aquarius recieves on election day). Combined with his strong Sun-True Node energies in Leo. Come on now, I've already analyzed McCain's Natal Chart. McCain won't win this election. Obama is far more powerful spiritually then McCain. And the difference can be seen in how they campaign

Edit: The Time you've come up for Obama is wrong. The 7:24 time is correct. Partially because of his Neptune-Scorpio interactions which show obviously Obama's past drug problems.

[Mr stellium]

Originally Posted by Confusedpisces

The South Node does not represent failure. In Karmic Astrology. South Node represents your past. The past your trying to get away from. Is it possible that many will be turned off by Obama during these last few weeks? Possible. Automatic Failure? Uh, no that's not what the S.Node is for. For that. Look at squares/oppositions, etc.

An Quincunx is by all means considered a minor transit. Perhaps you can read this as numerous number of minor hits against Obama?

There is no way Obama fails. His Natal Aquarius energy(and the energy Aquarius recieves on election day). Combined with his strong Sun-True Node energies in Leo. Come on now, I've already analyzed McCain's Natal Chart. McCain won't win this election. Obama is far more powerful spiritually then McCain. And the difference can be seen in how they campaign

Edit: The Time you've come up for Obama is wrong. The 7:24 time is correct. Partially because of his Neptune-Scorpio interactions which show obviously Obama's past drug problems.

Firstly, I am using the time as described on his birth cert: 7:24 - i don't mention that or any other time in the post so I don't know how you could have inferred that I was using the wrong time from reading my post.

About the South Node - exactly: "going back to his past" as "only" a U.S Senator (The most well known after then): Not "moving forward" to a new phase of his life by winning the election which would be if the North Node were there. Basically Obama's bad karma will prevent him from becoming President of the U.S.

The quincunx is a potent aspect and some astrologers consider it to be worthy of being considered a major aspect: Obama's ambitions (MC) will be frustrated (quincunx his Sun), with a quincunx from transiting Saturn to his Asc to hammer the point home: Obama will not be inaugurated President on January 20th.

Astrology predictions should not be made based on the person with "the strongest spiritual energy" - if this were accurate we would be able to correctly predict the outcomes of all contests between individuals by just looking at the natal chart in isolation - according to your theory the person with the "strongest spiritual energy" would always win - a deeply flawed approach to say the least.

I have looked at many charts considering various aspects of this election and the more I look at, the stronger I become in my belief that Obama will not be inaugurated President on January 20th 2009.

[Moulin]

hmmmm

very interesting. I would love Obama to WIN but l can't help that agree with the above, giving McCain the presidency.

[skywatcher1221]

Originally Posted by Mr stellium

The major problem for astrologers who call the election for Barack Obama is the lack of positive activity at his progressed angles. Previous milestones in his political career are all marked by undoubtedly positive indicators:

Graduated from Harvard: Progressed Asc 25 Pisces sextile natal Saturn at 25 Capricorn.

First elected to Illinois State Senate in 1995: Progressed IC conjunction natal Venus

Elected to US state senate in 2004: Progressed Asc (12 aries) trine natal Sun (12 Leo)

And next we come to the biggest potential milestone of them all - being elected President. And what do we find?

A paltry negative quincunx aspect: Progressed MC (12 Cap) quincunx natal Sun (12 Leo)

According to cafeastrology some keywords of the quincunx aspect are: redirecting, challenging, requiring adjustments, diverting.

So we could say Obama's ambitions will be "redirected" but not in the direction he wants, or a "challenging" result for him or a resut "requiring adjusments" or his ambitions "diverted" - basically he loses the election. How do astrologers on this forum explain this conundrum?

In addition heres more astrology against an Obama victory:

Obama's Sun: 12 Leo
Election day S.Node: 13 Leo

Destined (S.Node) failure of grandiose ambitions (Leo Sun)

Progressed Moon: 16 Aqu 18
Transit Chiron: 16 Aqu 05

Emotional (Moon) turmoil(with Chiron) after election defeat affecting physical health as both move towards his Asc.

Obama's ascendant: 18 Aqu 03
Transit Saturn: 18 Vir 27 (another quincunx!)

This quincunx will be building over the last 15 days of the election (exact on October 25th) and will still be partile (within the same degree) on election day. This is also negative for the physical vitality and I believe his support will begin to fall, particularly in the last 10 days.

I still call the election for John McCain (provided he does not suffer a health scare right before the election)

I commend your thoroughness. You provide a sound astrological rationale for your conclusions, unlike so many others who base their "predictions" on knee-jerk preferences. Okay, that being said, I've also predicted an Obama victory but I intend to vote for John McCain. I wouldn't mind at all if my prediction proves faulty but, based on McCain's transits, that health scare right before the election seems like a real possibility.

[waybread]

I wouldn't rule out Obama's victory, barring some unforeseen circumstances. As the pundits put it, the wheels can always fall off someone's campaign. In Obama's case, I would actually be concerned about assassination. And I am no alarmist, merely an observer of US politics and culture. Clearly being president calls for a lot of adjustment! And also, whoever wins this presidency will have a "poisoned chalice" with the wheels definitely falling off the economy.

It has been a while since I have looked at transits to McCain's chart, but my recollection is that Saturn will conjunct his MC. This could mean either severe disappointment, or else shouldering major responsibilities.

It also occurs to me that the president-elect actually will not take office until January. George W. will still be president until right up to the inauguration. Any charts for that date?

[skywatcher1221]

Originally Posted by waybread

I wouldn't rule out Obama's victory, barring some unforeseen circumstances. As the pundits put it, the wheels can always fall off someone's campaign. In Obama's case, I would actually be concerned about assassination. And I am no alarmist, merely an observer of US politics and culture. Clearly being president calls for a lot of adjustment! And also, whoever wins this presidency will have a "poisoned chalice" with the wheels definitely falling off the economy.

It has been a while since I have looked at transits to McCain's chart, but my recollection is that Saturn will conjunct his MC. This could mean either severe disappointment, or else shouldering major responsibilities.

It also occurs to me that the president-elect actually will not take office until January. George W. will still be president until right up to the inauguration. Any charts for that date?

Here is the basic inaugural chart sans asteroids. etc.

[starlink]

Mr.Stellium, going back to your past, or rather, being confronted with your past is a psychological occurence. The Nodes are by no means influencing you directly, rather indirectly via psychological insights. This can have a very positive effect actually and has nothing to do with him not wanting to move forward, sorry, I have never seen anything written to that effect before.

About that inconjunct, yes, there could be some adjustments to be made, but why? As you must well know by now, Obama's Solar Return is a very precarious one and has many similarities with the year (and solar return) in which Kennedy was assessinated. Prominent astrologers like Claude Weiss are very concerned about this. It could be quite possible that danger is lurking around the corner for Obama and that, even if he would be elected on November 4, wont be able to be inaugurated because something could have happened to him shortly after that and he has to make adjustments. Ever thought of that possibility?

Now that Colin Powel has openly showed his support for Obama, I think quite a few Americans will change their mind about Obama in a positive way. Even my partner who was all the time seeing Mc.Cain winning, now said that this was the last nail in the coffin for Mc.Cain.

Did you see the new Ascendant of Mc.Cain, now in Pisces according to his (finally published) birthcertificate? Your former predictions about him winning the presidency must have been based on the chart we all thought was the right one. How has this changed your view on him now?

Transiting Saturn will square his MC on November 4 and conjunct Neptune, ruler of his Ascendant. This cant be easy peasy for him. But yes, tr. Jupiter trines his Neptune and sextiles his Saturn which could be helpful. Pluto squares his Ascendant.
Tr. Uranus in his 1st conjunct Saturn retro opposing his Neptune and Venus and Venus rules his 8th house. Maybe he will conck out from exhaustion, who knows! I have not seen his Solar Return based on this new chart, no time yet. Anyways, I think that a lot can still happen. Both candidates have a chance, may the best man win! By the way, in this chart, the South Node at 13° Aquarius falls in his 6th house on election day conjunct his Mars at 12° Leo.

Cheers, Starlink

[gaer]

Originally Posted by Confusedpisces

The South Node does not represent failure. In Karmic Astrology. South Node represents your past. The past your trying to get away from. Is it possible that many will be turned off by Obama during these last few weeks? Possible. Automatic Failure? Uh, no that's not what the S.Node is for. For that. Look at squares/oppositions, etc.

An Quincunx is by all means considered a minor transit. Perhaps you can read this as numerous number of minor hits against Obama?

There is no way Obama fails. His Natal Aquarius energy(and the energy Aquarius recieves on election day). Combined with his strong Sun-True Node energies in Leo. Come on now, I've already analyzed McCain's Natal Chart. McCain won't win this election. Obama is far more powerful spiritually then McCain. And the difference can be seen in how they campaign

Edit: The Time you've come up for Obama is wrong. The 7:24 time is correct. Partially because of his Neptune-Scorpio interactions which show obviously Obama's past drug problems.

The fact Obama may have fooled around with drugs, briefly, during a short time in his life, does not indicate to me "drug problems".

[starlink]

Hello Gaer! So nice to see you tonight!

The fact Obama may have fooled around with drugs, briefly, during a short time in his life, does not indicate to me "drug problems

I agree. Trying out a drug does not automatically turn into a drug problem for the person who does this.

Cheers, Starlink

[gaer]

Originally Posted by starlink

Did you see the new Ascendant of Mc.Cain, now in Pisces according to his (finally published) birthcertificate?

Starlink, this is why I always had McCain charted for noon, with the careful notation: NO BIRTHTIME.

Just think how huge it is to have the Moon in the wrong sign, which is what the result might have been for both Obama and McCain, based on former guesses about their times of birth.

I also think it's an important lesson to learn just how far off "educated guesses" were, and how important it is to reserve judgement, even astrological judgement, until our data is no longer "dirty".

Gaer

[Awakened_Pisces]

In Obama's Progressed Chart on Inaugration Day:

Progressed Midheaven, Saturn, Jupiter can all be located in Capricorn. A Sign you tend to associate with leaders.

Progressed ASC is in Aries. Another sign that you associate with leadership. The progressions into Cappi and Aries spells alot out I think for even the most basic astrologer(like me).

His Progressed True Node Nearly-Conjunct his Natal True Node. Suggesting that he's progressed towards his destiny on this day.


Progressed Mars and Progressed Mercury are inside Libra. Showing that Barack probably has his visions set on Iraq and for peace there. Or something else regarding war.

His Progressed Neptune is in a near conjunction with Natal Neptune. How do I read that. I have no idea .

His Moon is in Aquarius on Inaugration day. It's important to note in the Inauguration chart. High arched Scorpio Moon(29 degrees) Conjunct's Obama's Natal Scorpio Midheaven and is Sextile Sun in Aquarius on the day of Inauguration.

[waybread]

Well, I breathed a sigh of relief when I saw that inauguration chart! Lots of blue lines, although that opposition from Saturn to Venus (rules money) and Uranus (sudden upsets?) in the 11th house of organizations--but also of one's hopes and goals for the future, suggest that "the party's over" via `a vis unbridled spending and financial optimism. Dunno which candidate it would favour, though. Mercury, the ruler of the 2nd house of money so prominent in the 10th suggest that finances will be a crucial signature of the next administration. And that probably that the Information Age (Gemini/Aquarius) will be key to the new administration's financial health.

Confused Pisces, good work on progressions. I would note that the outer planets normally move very slowly in a progressed chart, so even in the chart of an older person, the natal and progressed positions may be conjunct.

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by Mr stellium

A paltry negative quincunx aspect: Progressed MC (12 Cap) quincunx natal Sun (12 Leo)

I don't see any aspect. I got the pMC at 17 Cap 00 way out of orb.

Originally Posted by Mr stellium

So we could say Obama's ambitions will be "redirected" but not in the direction he wants, or a "challenging" result for him or a resut "requiring adjusments" or his ambitions "diverted" - basically he loses the election. How do astrologers on this forum explain this conundrum?

Even if it would be within orb and not separating, the pMC quincunx natal Sun would suggest success that is elusive or short-lived. Capricorn is Cardinal Earth, and it's in the 11th.

Transiting Jupiter is conjunct the progressed MC, which everyone seems to ignore.

If you want to look at something, you have tJupiter conjunct pMC semi-sextile pMoon in the 12th conjunct natal Ascendant. Semi-sextiles irritate and aggravate. Progressed Moon conjunct Ascendant is neither good nor bad, but with a semi-sextile, it looks bad. Jupiter rules his 10th and 11th and is the natural ruler of the 9th (legal matters).

Again that suggests an aggravation for Obama, perhaps related to voting results or legal issues that surface. Transiting Mars in Scorpio in the Libra 9th squaring the Ascendant the entire time polls are open and Mars also rules the 3rd House (communications). Note that transiting Uranus in the 1st is retrograde and in the face of Scorpio ruled by Mars.

Transiting Neptune conjunct the Ascendant and transiting the 1st House is disturbing, especially since it rules his 2nd House of values/beliefs. Transiting Mars and Neptune are also square each other.

Also transiting Pluto is moving separating from it's square with the progressed Sun, so if it was a plus it won't be on Election Day and if it was a minus, it might help him.

[skywatcher1221]

Originally Posted by BobZemco

I don't see any aspect. I got the pMC at 17 Cap 00 way out of orb.

Astrodienst has the progressed MC at 12 Cap 10. Are we using the same birth time here?

[aquarius7000]

Thanks for posting the progressed chart of Obama, Sky! Something that caught my eye here immediately is the rather tight 1° trine between prog Jupiter and prog Sun here, with Sun ruling its own natural house:- the fifth:- of competitions and contests, and this could prove to be favourable, esp as Jupiter trines it from the tenth house (goals in life, also public status). Also, prog Venus is placed in its house of joy in that fifth house.

Confusedpisces, with regard to Nep conj Nep, (as Waybread already pointed out), read only the inner planets and maybe Jupiter, Asc and MC in a progressed chart. Neptune will remain conjunct to Nep for many, many years in all our prog charts, as these planets move 'slower than at a snail's pace' in progressions.

aquarius7000

[skywatcher1221]

Originally Posted by aquarius7000

Thanks for posting the progressed chart of Obama, Sky! Something that caught my eye here immediately is the rather tight 1° trine between prog Jupiter and prog Sun here, with Sun ruling its own natural house:- the fifth:- of competitions and contests, and this could prove to be favourable, esp as Jupiter trines it from the tenth house (goals in life, also public status). Also, prog Venus is placed in its house of joy in that fifth house.

aquarius7000

I progressed this for Election Day, rather than Inauguration Day. There are some troublesome aspects in addition to the Sun-Jupiter trine, notably Mercury's nearly exact square to Saturn, with Mars hard on Mercury's heels. That could be personal, however. Obama's grandmother (who raised him) is seriously ill and he just suspended his campaign to fly to Hawaii to visit her.

[Mr stellium]

Originally Posted by Mr stellium

Progressed Moon: 16 Aqu 18
Transit Chiron: 16 Aqu 05

Emotional (Moon) turmoil(with Chiron) after election defeat affecting physical health as both move towards his Asc.

Actually, in light of todays news this would better describe his grandmothers serious illness as the natal and progressed Moon in the chart also describe female blood relatives, particularly the mother and grandmother and since Obama's mother is no longer living this affects his grandmother and Chiron transits are frequently active during deaths - however notice that the aspect is still applying on election day suggesting events which still have to come rather than have passed.

[Mr stellium]

Originally Posted by waybread

I wouldn't rule out Obama's victory, barring some unforeseen circumstances. As the pundits put it, the wheels can always fall off someone's campaign. In Obama's case, I would actually be concerned about assassination. And I am no alarmist, merely an observer of US politics and culture.

So would I based on a) His own natal progressed chart and transits; b) Harsh transits in the US natal chart some of which were observed during the assassinations of previous Presidents; c) The Solar Return chart of the U.S operative from July 2008 to July 2009 which has an indicator of assassination of a President (Based on looking at previous solar return charts the year a president was assassinated); d) His wifes chart which has progressed Sun opposition Pluto in 2009(among other factors) and; e) The transits and progressions of the Democratic party in November which are horrible (I'll give a whole thread on the Democratic party on Friday). Theres an excellent article by an Australian Astrologer about the assassination of U.S Presidents which I'll post a link to when I find it. I'm no alarmist either which is why I don't want to devote a whole thread about the potential assassination of Obama, which hopefully will not happen, but I still believe Obama will not be inaugurated President on January 20th.

[Mr stellium]

Originally Posted by starlink

Mr.Stellium, going back to your past, or rather, being confronted with your past is a psychological occurence. The Nodes are by no means influencing you directly, rather indirectly via psychological insights. This can have a very positive effect actually and has nothing to do with him not wanting to move forward, sorry, I have never seen anything written to that effect before.

Yes, he "wants" to move forward but is held back.

Originally Posted by starlink

About that inconjunct, yes, there could be some adjustments to be made, but why? As you must well know by now, Obama's Solar Return is a very precarious one and has many similarities with the year (and solar return) in which Kennedy was assessinated. Prominent astrologers like Claude Weiss are very concerned about this. It could be quite possible that danger is lurking around the corner for Obama and that, even if he would be elected on November 4, wont be able to be inaugurated because something could have happened to him shortly after that and he has to make adjustments. Ever thought of that possibility?

Yes, based on my reading of the charts I describe in response to another poster, which hopefully are wrong as I would not want it to happen. I'm not going to name specific dates, but November is the most dangerous month for the above to happen.

Originally Posted by starlink

Did you see the new Ascendant of Mc.Cain, now in Pisces according to his (finally published) birthcertificate? Your former predictions about him winning the presidency must have been based on the chart we all thought was the right one. How has this changed your view on him now?

I'll get back to you on that

[Mr stellium]

Originally Posted by skywatcher1221

I commend your thoroughness. You provide a sound astrological rationale for your conclusions, unlike so many others who base their "predictions" on knee-jerk preferences. Okay, that being said, I've also predicted an Obama victory but I intend to vote for John McCain. I wouldn't mind at all if my prediction proves faulty but, based on McCain's transits, that health scare right before the election seems like a real possibility.

Thank you skywatcher, my astrological thinking based on a potential health scare for McCain is transiting Saturn will conjunct Venus in his 12th house, and Venus rules his Ascendant (Physical body) - however I have yet to check out his "new" chart thats being talked about.

[Mr stellium]

Originally Posted by BobZemco

I don't see any aspect. I got the pMC at 17 Cap 00 way out of orb.



Even if it would be within orb and not separating, the pMC quincunx natal Sun would suggest success that is elusive or short-lived. Capricorn is Cardinal Earth, and it's in the 11th.

Transiting Jupiter is conjunct the progressed MC, which everyone seems to ignore.

If you want to look at something, you have tJupiter conjunct pMC semi-sextile pMoon in the 12th conjunct natal Ascendant. Semi-sextiles irritate and aggravate. Progressed Moon conjunct Ascendant is neither good nor bad, but with a semi-sextile, it looks bad. Jupiter rules his 10th and 11th and is the natural ruler of the 9th (legal matters).

Again that suggests an aggravation for Obama, perhaps related to voting results or legal issues that surface. Transiting Mars in Scorpio in the Libra 9th squaring the Ascendant the entire time polls are open and Mars also rules the 3rd House (communications). Note that transiting Uranus in the 1st is retrograde and in the face of Scorpio ruled by Mars.

Transiting Neptune conjunct the Ascendant and transiting the 1st House is disturbing, especially since it rules his 2nd House of values/beliefs. Transiting Mars and Neptune are also square each other.

Also transiting Pluto is moving separating from it's square with the progressed Sun, so if it was a plus it won't be on Election Day and if it was a minus, it might help him.

No, 12.10 Cap MC is correct and transiting Jupiter has well passed it by now.

[starlink]

I also think it's an important lesson to learn just how far off "educated guesses" were, and how important it is to reserve judgement, even astrological judgement, until our data is no longer "dirty".

So true!!!

[starlink]

Mr.Stellium, good you mention this, I was thinking about her but dont know her birthdetails. Do you have them?

His wifes chart which has progressed Sun opposition Pluto in 2009(among other factors)

Thanks, Starlink

[starlink]

Mr.Stellium, I dont know if you read this one?:

obama's untimely death?!?!?!?
Hades