Theological Discussion (amongst other things)

LionKing · #1 10-10-2008, 02:16 PM

I believe in God of the Bible. I do believe that there is an "end time." I have heard for years of the senario of what is going to happen then or now. The world-stage is just taking on the cast of players and in this end time, the choices that we make will be eternal. I do believe that in the time is not all crisis... I believe that God takes care of His. The greates prophecies are in the Bible. Astrology is a technical tool. Mathmatics... ect. The word of God is eternal and valid. I like what Theo did in this one. I pray that somehow... some will listen and not look just to the heavens for answers, but in the Bible. V/r LionKing
(It's not hard to find that even William Lilly was a Christian.)

jamiescott · #2 10-10-2008, 02:21 PM

I would say the stars are far more accurate than the Bible. The stars have not been revised and butchered by Popes and Kings.

LionKing · #3 10-10-2008, 02:33 PM

It is true what you have said Jamiescott. There are many Bibles and many interpretations. My arguement is with you in this area. But in saying that the REAL story cannot be changed. Christ died for our sins. We needed that. His death and resurrection was the beginning of our salvation. It's an easy choice to make... hard for people to understand and do.
V/r LionKing
I will end anything else on this thread because, sad to say, this is not what we should be doing with these astrological rooms.

jamiescott · #4 10-10-2008, 02:47 PM

LionKing, you said

Quote:

Christ died for our sins.

This seems to be another point of debate now. As BobZemco said in the thread

Jesus' Birth Chart (

1 2 3)

Quote:

Assuming he died, and even if he didn't you'd expect to see transiting Pluto opposing the MC or directed Uranus on the Ascendant or a few other things.

Some Christians and historians believe he did not die on the cross. The is reason to believe his uncle Joseph use herbs to revive him. He was taken down from the cross much earlier than everyone else. His uncle Joseph was quite rich and influential.

Shadowflash · #5 10-10-2008, 04:40 PM

Oh dear.... *sigh* Sometimes I'm so shocked that people still believe in The Angry God of the bible, I almost fall off my chair. And though this is probably one of my most passionate beliefs, I must still preface this as being "just my opinion," but to me, it's fact.

Yo: There IS NO HELL. There is only what we go through in what's called the Life Review, that we shift into immedately after death, in which we are shown *all the effects generated by all our "causes" we chose to set in motion by our thoughts, words and deeds*. This is often experienced as "hellish," because it's only then that we realize how much outrageously-huge IMPACT everything we think, say and do has upon the world and upon the individuals we've crossed paths with. But in contrast we are also shown the immense GOOD we have done by our positive choices, that we also have no clue of while we're here.

The true message of Yeshua the Christ was, is and always will be THE ULTIMATE POWER OF LOVE AND COMPASSION FOR SELF AND FOR ALL LIFE, and has very little to do with the Crucifixion Event ("Christ died for our sins") mythos that was literally *built into the now-bible by Constantine and his minions at Nicea (sp?) in 4 A.D. It was his intention to create a Christian mythos that would enable him and all who followed him to CONTROL THE POPULACE USING RELIGION, and it looks like his efforts have borne hideous manipulative fruit even to this moment... *sigh* If a human being's *drive for realizing Spirit within themselves, as well as their sexuality* can be controlled, their whole being can be controlled, as is abundantly evidenced here...

Makes me wanna hurl. LOL. WAKE UP!!! There is no Wrathful, Vengeful God waiting to harvest the "un-saved" and cast them into "hell!" LOL! THAT IS NOTHING BUT PROJECTING IGNORANT HUMAN QUALITIES ONTO DIVINITY, and that just doesn't translate....or make any sense....

FWIW...

starlink · #6 10-10-2008, 07:50 PM

Dear all, Theo started this thread in the "Astrology Now" Forum.

**An Astrological Warning & Glad Tidings**

As this thread has turned into a big discussion about God, believing in and /or not believing in him, I thought it might be interesting to some of you to join in the discussion. Theo started with some warnings about the current financial upheaval in the world and how to deal with them (very interesting, worthwhile reading) but a big discussion about God, the Bible and other theological beliefs also emerged in this thread.

Instead of moving the whole thread to the Spiritual Realm Forum, I decided to just invite anyone interested to have a look at Theo's thread and if you like, join in.

Starlink

tikana · #7 10-10-2008, 08:13 PM

Dear all

i am agnostic not to be mistaken for ATHIEST! but I believe in gravity. gravity is the law.
and i could care less what all holy books have to say about anything

every biblical testament gets broken everyday

Tik

LionKing · #8 10-10-2008, 09:18 PM

Starlink... I'm glad that you intro this thread. I was afraid I was going to offend everyone if I said anything further. I wanted to just say a few things and end it. I think that Theo did pretty good job with what he had to offer. Theology is a tough field to argue in. There are so many different views on who God is. It is nice to see that there are some interest out there. I suppose we will until the ending time, always wonder who and what God is. I'll just see what everyone else has to offer this time. V/r LionKing

Awakened_Pisces · #9 10-10-2008, 09:55 PM

If God exists. His current philosophy STINKS. It basically says "If you betray me, Burn. If you don't believe in a book, burn." He's no better then the man he sent in Hell. He's only delusional enough to believe otherwise.

Theo · #10 10-10-2008, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Confusedpisces

If God exists. His current philosophy STINKS. It basically says "If you betray me, Burn. If you don't believe in a book, burn." He's no better then the man he sent in Hell. He's only delusional enough to believe otherwise.

I can only say that perhaps you ought to take more time to look into the origins of Astrology, because if you are practicing it ConfusedPisces, then you are practicing what was invented by God The Creator. One cannot practice astrology and not believe in God.

Moreover, the "word" is a living thing. It is expressed through writings... such as the Bible, and other religious texts that seek to guide humanity after its fall from spiritual grace.

Theo · #11 10-10-2008, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LionKing

Starlink... I'm glad that you intro this thread. I was afraid I was going to offend everyone if I said anything further. I wanted to just say a few things and end it. I think that Theo did pretty good job with what he had to offer. Theology is a tough field to argue in. There are so many different views on who God is. It is nice to see that there are some interest out there. I suppose we will until the ending time, always wonder who and what God is. I'll just see what everyone else has to offer this time. V/r LionKing

I agree, thanks Starlink. As for Theology, well, I am a judicial astrologer, and my name is Theo, and I've been well versed in theology as it pertains to astrological thought and practice. All astrologers should have a well rounded basis in theology, as the science of astrology is directly connected to the celestial science.

Awakened_Pisces · #12 10-11-2008, 01:37 AM

You know it never was answered. Who created God? Himself? Right. The creator did not pull a dictatorship greater then Hussein's and Hitler's. I truly believe that we were created by something. But most certainly not by some over powered man, who was once of course a man. A Man now turned superman? Doubtful at best. In all honest mind: I heavily doubt that he became this all powerful being. And since did sending one's own son to die save the moral ethic of thousands of beings? It's not only an impossibility but a joke. All I believed from the main pages of the bible(and that's the most important thing because outside of it are about a million or so riddles). Was Noah's arc. And even then, my feelings remain justified. He felt gulity about what he had done, after he did it? If God does exist, he needs to be overthrown. New leadership, new direction. And I don't support the snake. God and Satan=Two sides of the same coin.

Solastro · #13 10-11-2008, 02:10 AM

Oh yes.. the desire to separate from Source.. God/Goddess whatever we choose to call it.. the illusion being "separation" from Source...

However to live in this world.. we need our "illusions" (Neptune).. In order to grow through "consciousness" in this material realm (Saturn).. to pursue our personal desires (Mars) etc.. So we have to experience whatever is necessary in order to discover & grow.. to evolve 'the Soul' within that is (Pluto).. not just 'the Body' (Saturn).. or the physical dimensions alone etc.. So we have the struggle for "integration".. against the central "Distortion".. ie. the Mind-Body spilt etc!!!

So I come to "Evolutionary Astrology".. ie. the work of Jeffrey Wolf Green.. as per "Pluto: the Evolutionary Journey of the Soul".. ie. "Natural Law" versus "Man Made Law".. So why has Western Culture been deliberately lead into or naturally gravitated to Eastern philosophy.. ie. Yogananda etc.. The "Body-Mind" split.. or separation.. as a result of distortions of 'The Garden of Eden Myth'.. Christianity etc.. think "Sado-masochism".. And oddly enough all re-enforced by 'the Enlightenment'.. 'Industrialisation' etc.. ie. the abuse of "Power".. punishing of self or others.. & the need to dominate Self or Others.. including nature etc..

Yes the destruction & abuse of Gaia.. our mother Earth.. Rape.. child abuse.. violence etc.. all a 'natural result' or 'consequence' of suppressing natural sexuality.. living from one's heart etc.. A seemingly endless cycle of ignorance.. & do we even understand what 'Natural Law' is any more?

Then we have the whole idea of 'the Creator' creating many different manifestations of itself.. in order to experience itself ("no-separation" from Source) in many different forms.. the branches of the one tree etc.. 'the Creator' experiencing the growth of it's own consciousness...

What lies behind all Christian or other religious rituals ceremonies etc.. Pagan beliefs.. the lost wisdom of the Shaman.. all the lost tribes of the world.. living with a deep understanding of "Nature".. the natural laws of life etc..

Another necessary evolutionary phase? Nature tells us that all things must run their course.. from the life of a virus to that of a Pope etc.. yes to the great astrological ages etc.. the 'Patriarchy-Matriarchy' or whatever..

So in essence the idea of "Evolutionary Astrology" says we can't force nature against it's will.. ie. planting crops in the right season etc.. so that if we have these "separating desires".. as acquired from lifetime to lifetime.. the idea being that we need to exhaust them.. instead of trying to "suppress" them.. & by so doing we naturally "outgrow" our separating desires.. So this suggest the fundamental 'Man-Made" error of denial & suppression as the way to "enlightment".. 'the masculine way' only...

So this really puts absolute "Personal Responsibility" back into our own hands.. instead of being judged by a 'perfect' & or external Patriarchal God from on high.. we also realize that 'the Creator' is also "evolving".. just as we are.. as not separate from us.. ie. 'the Soul' (Pluto) from life to life.. until we realise our ultimate union with Source again.. ie. 'The Prodigal Son' returns home...

So the bottom line.. we must realize "God-Goddess is within".. & to pursue our lives from the natural expression of who we are.. even if that means GOING IT ALONE (Saturn).. ie. to realize we are eternally united with "Source".. no matter what.. So we will need some srot of practice to expereince this connection.. msuic art.. mediation or whatever is most "natural" for you.. 'the wave'.. individual Self.. is essential.. but also is always a part of 'the Ocean'.. Yes the yoga is easy to say harder to do.. as Steve Forrest would say.. yes & what about "No judgements".. beginning with Self.. of course.. Yes this may take many many many lifetimes indeed.. So remembering of course we still have 'Free Will"...

Awakened_Pisces · #14 10-11-2008, 02:18 AM

Thanks. Exactly what I believe needs to occur. The evolution of Man.

Theo · #15 10-11-2008, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Confusedpisces

You know it never was answered. Who created God? Himself? Right. The creator did not pull a dictatorship greater then Hussein's and Hitler's. I truly believe that we were created by something. But most certainly not by some over powered man, who was once of course a man. A Man now turned superman? Doubtful at best. In all honest mind: I heavily doubt that he became this all powerful being. And since did sending one's own son to die save the moral ethic of thousands of beings? It's not only an impossibility but a joke. All I believed from the main pages of the bible(and that's the most important thing because outside of it are about a million or so riddles). Was Noah's arc. And even then, my feelings remain justified. He felt gulity about what he had done, after he did it? If God does exist, he needs to be overthrown. New leadership, new direction. And I don't support the snake. God and Satan=Two sides of the same coin.

I would say, from reading your comments ConfusedPisces, that you have some additional reading and study to do on theology before making such comments. You've got a lot to learn.

Solastro · #16 10-11-2008, 03:13 AM

Oh yes.. the desire to seperate from Source.. God/Goddess whatever we choose to call it.. the illusion being "seperation" from Source...

However to live in this world.. we need our "illusions".. In order to grow through "consciousness" in this material realm.. to pursue our personal desires(Mars) etc.. So we have to expereince whatever is necessary in order to discover & grow.. to evolve 'the Soul' within that is.. not just 'teh Body'.. or the physcial dimensions alone etc.. So we have the struggle for "integration".. against all our central "distortion".. ie. the Mind-Body spilt!!!

So I come to "Evolutionary Astrology".. ie. the work of Jeffrey Wolf Green.. as per "Pluto: the Evolutionary Journey of teh Soul".. ie. "Natural Law" versus "Man Made Law".. So why has Western Culture been dilberatley lead into or naturally gravitated to Eastern philosphy.. ie. Yogananda etc.. The "Body-Mind" split.. or seperation.. as a result of distortions of 'The Garden of Eden Myth'.. Chritianity etc.. think "Sado-masochism".. And oddly enough all re-enforced by 'the Enlightment'.. 'Industrialisation' etc.. ie. the abuse of "Power".. punishing of self or others.. & th eneed to dominate Self or Others.. inlcuding nature etc..

Yes the destruction & abuse of Gaia.. our mother Earth..
The process of the Creator creating many different manifestations of itself.. in order to expereince itself ("no-seperation" from Source) in many different forms.. teh bracnhes of teh one tree etc.. 'the Creator' expereincing teh growth of it's own consciousness...

What lies behind all Christian or other relgious rituals ceremonies etc.. Pagan beliefs.. the lost wisdom of the Shaman.. all the lost tribes of the world.. living with a deep understanding of "Nature".. the natural laws of life etc..

Another necessary evolutionary phase? Nature tells us that all things must run their course.. from the life of a virus to that of a Pope etc.. yes to the great astrological ages etc.. the 'Patriarchy-Matriarchy' or whatever..

So in essencce the idea of "Evolutionary Astrology" says we can't force nature against it's will.. ie. planting crops in the right season etc.. so that if we have these "sepreating desires".. as aquaired from lifetime to lifetime.. the idea being that we need to exhaust them.. instead of trying to "suppress" them.. & by so doing we naturally "outgrow" our seperating desires.. So this suggest teh fundamental 'Man-Made" error of denial & suppression as teh way to "enlightment".. 'the masculine way' only...

So this really puts absolute "Personal Responsibility" back into our own hands.. instead of being judged by a 'perfect' & or external Patriarchal God from on high.. we also realize that 'the Creator' is also "evolving".. just as we are.. as not seperate from us.. ie. 'the Soul' (Pluto) from life to life.. until we realise our ultimate union with Source again.. ie. 'The Prodigal Son' returns home...

So the bottom line.. we must realize "God-Goddess is within".. & to pursue our lives from the natural expression of who we are.. even if that means GOING IT ALONE (Saturn).. ie. to realize we are eternally united with "Source".. no matter what.. And so we will need some sort of practice & or quiet time to experience this connection..eg. through music.. art.. meditation or whatever is most "natural" for you.. 'the wave'.. individual Self.. is essential.. but also is always a part of 'the Ocean'..

Yes the yoga is easy to say harder to do.. as Steve Forrest would say.. yes & what about "No judgements".. beginning with Self.. of course.. Yes this may take many many many lifetimes indeed.. So remembering of course we still have 'Free Will"...

lillywhite · #17 10-11-2008, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theo

I can only say that perhaps you ought to take more time to look into the origins of Astrology, because if you are practicing it ConfusedPisces, then you are practicing what was invented by God The Creator. One cannot practice astrology and not believe in God.

Moreover, the "word" is a living thing. It is expressed through writings... such as the Bible, and other religious texts that seek to guide humanity after its fall from spiritual grace.

All I can say is if God really exists, let him show his face and tell us all why? Why give life and then take it away? Why demand our attention only to dissapear? I want answers , and I'm not going to take it on faith that this universe and all thats in it was created by anything coherent! It too is heading to it's death, this makes no sense. BTW, does astrology take into account the changing positions of the stars as the universe and our galexy expand? How about when a star system gets swallowed up by a black hole?

Theo · #18 10-11-2008, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lillywhite

All I can say is if God really egsists, let him show his freaking face and tell us all why? Why give life and then take it away? Why demand our attention only to dissapear? I want answers damit, and I'm not going to take it on faith that this universe and all thats in it was created by anything coherent! It too is heading to it's death, this makes no sense. BTW, does astrology take into account the changing postions of the stars as the universe and our galexy expand? How about when a star system gets swallowed up by a black hole?

Maybe the atheist cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman. ~Author Unknown

lillywhite · #19 10-11-2008, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theo

Maybe the atheist cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman. ~Author Unknown

:38: The holier than thou often tripeth overeth their own feet for the glow of their own holiness.

EJ53 · #20 10-11-2008, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lillywhite

All I can say is if God really exists, let him show his face and tell us all why? Why give life and then take it away? Why demand our attention only to dissapear?

We/our imaginations are limited by the concept of time and space (created by Man) and a belief that "God" must have human feelings/emotions. But, why can "God" not be timeless; everywhere/in all things; aware that physical death is not the end and (as yet) incapable of identifying with suffering because that is what He Himself is trying to "learn".

To such a God, why would it matter that (for less than a nanosecond to Him) the human race undergoes chaos and misery as it makes each natural transition from the Old Order to the New? Is it any different to a human wiping out a colony of ants before seeding the ground they occupied?

EJ

Theo · #21 10-11-2008, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lillywhite

:38: The holier than thou often tripeth overeth their own feet for the glow of their own holiness.

Please. Jeez.

Awakened_Pisces · #22 10-11-2008, 05:47 AM

There have been many theories as to why we were created by god. I'll choose to believe the muslims theory. Is that God wanted to create beings and watch over them. And see that they become just as good as He himself. What God wants to see, above all else is a world of harmony and peace. He most certainly doesn't want to recommitt the acts of Noah's arc.

nejispirit · #23 10-11-2008, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Confusedpisces

If God exists. His current philosophy STINKS. It basically says "If you betray me, Burn. If you don't believe in a book, burn." He's no better then the man he sent in Hell. He's only delusional enough to believe otherwise.

*laughs a bit* I see someone is angry at religion, for a reason? Or at least angry at God, yes?

I am no super religious fanatic, mind you, but He forgives everyone if they only forgive themselves and who choose to *do the right thing for themselves, at that time*- God will follow you, protect you where ever you go, even if that means you are engaging in illegal activities or somehow making your life worse, He will be there to hold, protect and love you, comfort you of course (if you so choose to believe, mind you); He loves you and all of us in this world, unconditionally and no matter what- I personally do not believe in hell, and yes I call myself a Christian- but here on this Earth, we make our own hells.

If your work becomes a madhouse and a place of misery, "you have been sent to hell", if a vicious person comes into your life they may try to "make your life a living hell", if you are clinically depressed/have problems with anxiety, your life might already be a hell.

There are those out there who scoff at me for being a believer in God and a believer in Astrology, but I think the two go hand and hand, and personally for me, one cannot exist without the other.

And to whom in this thread do not believe in Him, that is your choice, but keep this in mind; in November of last year, I tried commiting suicide, fell 61 ft (6 stories) off a parking garage because a medicine made me suicidal- now how am I still here, still walking around/not paralyzed, still with enough wits to write this out and capacity to learn, and there are those who question that God saved me, that it just "happened to work out in your favor"?

Was I not saved from death because I am supposed to be here? And no, it was not merely luck, it was *God* who did this and *God* who saved me- I am here for a reason.

Awakened_Pisces · #24 10-11-2008, 09:01 AM

Yeah, you can say I'm angry. My Mom will be deemed evil because the only evidence He gave her and other people is a mere book. A BOOK! I mean seriously. A Book. My Mom is an athiest. But she is the kindest, warmhearted person I have ever met. If it weren't for her. I seriously wouldn't be here. Everything else in life tempted me to give it all up. After all, for whom or what was my suffering for? But Mom was there and because of her, I had the strength to move forward. I cannot stand her being called evil if it turns out the only evidence he gave people was a book.

nejispirit · #25 10-11-2008, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Confusedpisces

Yeah, you can say I'm angry. My Mom will be deemed evil because the only evidence He gave her and other people is a mere book. A BOOK! I mean seriously. A Book. My Mom is an athiest. But she is the kindest, warmhearted person I have ever met. If it weren't for her. I seriously wouldn't be here. Everything else in life tempted me to give it all up. After all, for whom or what was my suffering for? But Mom was there and because of her, I had the strength to move forward. I cannot stand her being called evil if it turns out the only evidence he gave people was a book.

Ah, if you want to know my opinion on "that book"- it's really not a good way to try and categorize Christians by, sure it's nice and all, but I personally don't agree with some of it and see it more as literature than literal. That's how it *should* be interpreted and how a good majority of Christians see it, not to be taken as word for word.

Who called her evil exactly, a person or is it the mere idea, to you, that Christians will think of her as "evil" because she does not believe?