self-doubt and Mars-Neptune

[Night Sky]

Claire perhaps you look for something that is a little idealistic, beautiful, maybe the conjunction achieves that...?

But with the square i suppose it stays just a dream, and reality does not live up to the dream. And it is the cause of anger and frustrations and maybe a lot of unhappiness.

What Matthew was saying maybe true in some way about not loving yourself. Even when you almost feel that someone does, you can't let your guard down, because you know it's a big illusion in some way and that you will always feel rejected no matter what.

But i guess in the end i look for something illusive and beautiful, something far away and mystical in order to counteract the feeling of loss, of rejection, of defeat.

[Matthew The Astrologer]

Originally Posted by Night Sky

I don't know why you say this, i see Mars Neptune square as a hard aspect... don't feel charismatic at all, more creepy than charismatic.

But it is interesting... can you back up your claims?

Liz Green's gigantic volume on Neptune dedicates a large portion of a tree to the mars-Neptune aspect, with lots of examples... and not just Bill Clinton.

[Night Sky]

Thank you Matthew,

It looks like a huge tome, and something I'd like to have a little peak inside. just trying to see if I can get some previews via the net. (so cheap of me, I know, but if it's really good then I'll try and get it in material form : )

[Night Sky]

Originally Posted by Matthew The Astrologer

Liz Green's gigantic volume on Neptune dedicates a large portion of a tree to the mars-Neptune aspect, with lots of examples... and not just Bill Clinton.

Right, I couldn't get the Neptune book, but I have managed to find in another Liz Greene book something rather interesting which I have not read previously.

She basically states that Mars-Neptune is a self-sacrifice aspect, or more particularly an aspect of sacrificing your own physical desires, your identity, and:

"to rise above the physical and animal desires"


She says you must


"assert yourself but do it for the sake of others"


She says that we can assert our identities though neptune...

"by doing something Neptunian: artist, musician, healer, mystic, psychic, poet, actress, dancer, model, nurse."




"Neptune wants to come through Mars"


"Should assert themselves with sensitivity, refinement and artistic flair."



This is funny:


"Sometimes people with Mars-Neptune aspects seduce other people to seduce them.... "

I have never been seduced, or seduced??? maybe something to look out for



"I did it beacuse I was drunk"..... "I did it because the other person needed me to do it"..... "I did it for Jesus"


This is very true:


"As children many were frustrated because they didn't feel heard"


"You need to first acknowledge your underlying belief that you are inept"


I acknowledge it.:38:I am not good enough. Never have been, never will be. At anything.

"you need to gradually build up your confidence with small steps"


"Don't fall in the compassion trap"(where you are afraid of hurting other people)


"have an oversensitive or delicate nervous system"



OK, lots of stuff here, thanks Matthew and Liz Greene too. I heard of Liz Greene and now I read her and find it quite psychologically logical. This is now raising me out of confusion, because I have more of an understanding of psychological reasons. Being criticised makes you feel that you are "inept" and now that you are inept you must do something in small steps to give the feeling that you are good at something after all. Something which is not too difficult to begin with, so that you don't fail it and feel that you are a failure again. She also mentions this too.

[Steeler]

I've been doing creative stuff for years and this aspect does not get any better by doing those things.....

[entrevisions]

Originally Posted by Night Sky

But i guess in the end i look for something illusive and beautiful, something far away and mystical in order to counteract the feeling of loss, of rejection, of defeat.

So True ! Something far away and mystical !

[BobZemco]

Mars square Neptune has nothing to do with self-doubt.
It isn't "Neptune conjunct the IC," it's Neptune opposition MC (your Ego) that generates the self-doubt.

Neptune squaring the MC will also manifest itself as self-doubt, but for different reasons.

With Mars squaring Neptune, it exacerbates the self-doubt because one has the urge to act impulsively (especially if Mars is in a Fire sign or in an active sign), making bad-decisions that are regretted later, compounding the feeling of self-doubt. The origin of this urge to act impulsively is dependent on the placement of Mars. If in the 1st House, it is within the self. If in the 7th House, it is pressure from others that results in the urge to act compulsively.

It's complicated more when Mars is conjunct/oppposing the Ascendant and squaring Neptune opposing the MC (a T-Square). If Mars is conjunct the Ascendant, the urge to act impulsively comes from with because you want others to see you with this sort of fasle bravado. If opposing the Ascendant, you do so because of the expectation that others want to see a sense of false bravado.

Outside of that, Mars square Neptune is characterized by deceptive actions, or acting because your deceived into doing so. The degree of impulsiveness here is also goverened by the placement of Mars in Fire/Active signs, as well as in Houses of Life. It will also show you where you'll keep making mistakes and the origin of the deception. Someone with Mars in the 2nd square Neptune in the 5th will act differently than someone with Neptune in the 2nd and Mars in the 5th, as Neptune will shows where we deceive ourselves/are vulnerable to deception by others.

[Night Sky]

Originally Posted by BobZemco

Mars square Neptune has nothing to do with self-doubt.
It isn't "Neptune conjunct the IC," it's Neptune opposition MC (your Ego) that generates the self-doubt.

Neptune squaring the MC will also manifest itself as self-doubt, but for different reasons.

With Mars squaring Neptune, it exacerbates the self-doubt because one has the urge to act impulsively (especially if Mars is in a Fire sign or in an active sign), making bad-decisions that are regretted later, compounding the feeling of self-doubt. The origin of this urge to act impulsively is dependent on the placement of Mars. If in the 1st House, it is within the self. If in the 7th House, it is pressure from others that results in the urge to act compulsively.

It's complicated more when Mars is conjunct/oppposing the Ascendant and squaring Neptune opposing the MC (a T-Square). If Mars is conjunct the Ascendant, the urge to act impulsively comes from with because you want others to see you with this sort of fasle bravado. If opposing the Ascendant, you do so because of the expectation that others want to see a sense of false bravado.

Outside of that, Mars square Neptune is characterized by deceptive actions, or acting because your deceived into doing so. The degree of impulsiveness here is also goverened by the placement of Mars in Fire/Active signs, as well as in Houses of Life. It will also show you where you'll keep making mistakes and the origin of the deception. Someone with Mars in the 2nd square Neptune in the 5th will act differently than someone with Neptune in the 2nd and Mars in the 5th, as Neptune will shows where we deceive ourselves/are vulnerable to deception by others.

Thanks for you comments Bob, quite a lot to think about.

I suppose the main thrust of my topic was this "self doubt" thing which is not strictly a Neptune-Mars owned problem. Saturn in aspect to the Sun is one aspect which I know to be able to undermine a person's self confidence, and probably Neptune in aspect to Sun just as well, because, the Sun represents the Ego in a rather simple sense of being your "self".

I am aware too about the Neptune MC opposition. When I stated Neptune IC conjunction i fully understood the implications of its being opposite the MC and Square the Ascendant also.


Part of the problem with Neptune is that it is a planet where you can easily not know where you are with. That you just don't know where you stand or don't really know which direction to go in.


Often there is a choice, between two directions, or between believeing two simultanious things. Like the Pisces imagery of two fish swimming in opposite directions, Neptune I believe, decides to accept BOTH options as true, and to metaphorically go in both directions.

Pisces is after all one of the dual or bicorporeal signs. The difficulty with Mars or the Sun then is perhaps that these two planets are of a Singular pointed nature, they need a clear direction, and one direction, one course of action.

Mars doesn't like getting lost like Neptune. Mars is an ego planet like the Sun, it has basic drives and functions on the basis of satisfying that drive, by going from A to B in a direct open fashion, with little or no detour. The "self doubt" or questioning of that basic self assertion occurs when Mars is confronted with impossible choices. Mars doesn't usually sacrifice himself, Mars is usually more of a self preserving surviror planet, hence the association or traditional rulership of Scorpio.

One thing that you metioned Bob, about decision making, I think is crucial to understanding this aspect properly. Hesitation I believe is one of the major stumbling blocks in making decisions which work out. Obviously there will always be bad decisions which will always be made... but I think it is a basic psychological law of repercussions, like a ripple effect. When decisions are clouded by doubt or misinformation, or even by not knowing which direction is best and the decision is based on hesitation, doubt, lack of system, the results are usually bad. Because the movement forward was a negative one. When decisions are made without thinking about them on an emotional level as per Neptune, then the decisions can have more success, because they are based on confidence. And confidence usually attracts confidence.

[star2858]

Originally Posted by Jenna Jupiter

I love this thread!


"Negative aspects to Mars and Neptune can reduce vitality and sometimes even indicate anemia or issues with medication."


"Some criminal aspects to look for in a chart are:
1 – Negative aspects to Mars and Pluto (violence)
2 – Negative aspects to Mercury and Neptune (dishonesty, fraud, or theft…the con man).
2 – Negative aspects to Neptune and Mars (drug user or drug dealer)"

"An opposition between Mars and Neptune can sometimes indicate drug or alcohol abuse or venereal disease."

"Mars conjunct Neptune gives the ability to "dream true". If you have this aspect be very careful not to dwell on the negative, you’ll make it happen! This aspect has been associated with white witchcraft as well. It gives a talent for bending energies with the emotions and mind. "

"Bisexuality may sometimes be emphasized with trines or sextiles to Mars and Neptune."

http://home1.gte.net/darrowmp/Astrological%20Blurbs.htm

/JJ

Hi,

I have mercury in libra 6th squaring neptune in 8th house. Am studying to become a lawyer, so cannot be dishonest there!

My dad is an astrologer and has always told me that my mars in virgo in 5th house trine neptune (which i have) means dreams come true, but also the bad dreams too.

Though am not bisexual, am straight as ever despite my bad luck with men!

It is true about the whole negative thinking thing.

[JayM]

I have something to say here so ill bring this thread up. The hard aspects between neptune and mars brings out the delusional side of neptune, creating an illusion around men or the action principle and can make you gullable, but the hard aspects I dont think asctually sap the mars energy as much as the soft aspects between mars and neptune, the soft aspects help you bring your dreams manifest but my mars is also in pisces so theres both of them there.

My mars is 6 pisces in the 1st, it sextiles sun at 12 cap 11th, sextiles neptune at 1 degree cap 11th trines pluto at 4 degree scorp in the 8th (my pisces is intercepted in the 1st) and squares uranus in saj in the 10th and has I think some kind of conjuntion to venus 28 deg aqua in the 1st as well, so theres alot of stuff happening there!

Sometimes I find it hard to act when under pressure or in a confrontation, but I dont know which aspect that is.

[Claire19]

I have an exact conjunct with Mars and Neptune in Libra. I used to feel that nothing I did mattered. That all was futile....I have had to get over that and channelled my energies into the metaphysical matters as it is posited in the 8th. I have had long periods of celibacy and then periods of frenetic rather indiscriminant sexual activity as well. Mars Neptune can be very prone to STDs, infections and so on so have to be very careful. It is supposed to be a magnetic aspect especially for men. The IT factor.... who ironically can feel they are not quite manly enough and overcompensate. It confers a kind of glamour and mystery...

It is a deceptive influence for sure and attracts lies and liars which you have to guard against as well as being prone to addictions or involvements with addicts.

It depends on what other aspects are connected to it that temper it or exaggerate the effects.

[m0ney*p0wer*re$pect]

I have a Mars square Neptune and it's up and down. If I daydream, then I won't do anything. Alot of my energy will sucked away if I let my imagination take over. I have alot of desires and they are just as hot and strong as any placement but I handle it different.


In the past I myself have made me insecure, standing in my own way, destroying my own ego, denying my own needs out of fears that I created, and anxieties I place on myself. It's not an easy placement by any means but you learn from, you learn to not beat yourself up and have faith in who you are and what people criticize does notean that's who you are as a whole.



I missed out on alot by standing in my own way, being my own worst enemy but it has awaken me in ways I can't even describe. As long as I use my imagination constructively, it can help.


I can get lost in my passions, letting go and just going of what I feel. And my ambitions never die, and someday thru some hard work, I will see them in fruition.

[Yuusha]

Mars square Neptune is so difficult to deal with...the tendency of asserting myself too little or too much is definitely an issue. Alternating between thinking I can accomplish something significant and being discouraged into powerlessness is another issue...Self-confidence in my goals and capabilities definitely fluctuates.

Hm...apparently people with Mars square Neptune have the ability to convince others.

Oddly enough, this is not really the case. Some people think I'm impressive (I realize I DO have a charismatic streak, but I'm a genuine person), but others have a hard time understanding me and dismiss me as nuts. I find the world as it is uninspiring, and I feel like something better is possible. Unfortunately, my vision of how things could be is rejected as fantasy.

And then, my tendency of complaining too much puts people off...I don't realize how annoying I can be when I'm upset about the way things are etc.

Martial arts helps me deal with bottled-up feelings fairly well though.

What is the best way of coping with Mars Square Neptune?

[m0ney*p0wer*re$pect]

I have a mars square Neptune and it can be an up and down battle between my conscious self and subconscious self. If I doubt myself, it's because I've listened to what others say about me and took it too Personal.


I think that Neptune is making me take a deeper look into my Martian energy and the square is just signifying how much he'll it actually is. You have these periods where you are confident within yourself, enough to put all of yourself out there but soon as the first insult or critic comes, boom, you retreat and hide or want to til you can fix it which disillusions you. That's the lowest from, the blindness that continues as you try to escape from mars and you do things to cripple it more.


But my self doubt doesn't last long because I have matured. I am learning to balance the 2. On the Neptune side, it's so easy to fantasize about things going one way and the self doubt usually comes from my own imagination because I gave too much energy to Neptune. So of course mars would suffer because I'm not going to show what I doubt. But I try to balance it by actually using that Martian energy to bring those neptunian fantasies to life. Well dreams cuz the former is dangerous I heard.


I doubt myself more and more when I do not act out. If I know I need to do something yet I wait, I doubt myself more because that fire to do it faded and I doubt I will ever do it. The only way for me to not doubt myself, I have to do the hardest thing, actually put myself and how I feel out there. To be open so I can say I tried and won't doubt myself. It's not w bad placement but **** if it's not challenging

[m0ney*p0wer*re$pect]

Originally Posted by Yuusha

Mars square Neptune is so difficult to deal with...the tendency of asserting myself too little or too much is definitely an issue. Alternating between thinking I can accomplish something significant and being discouraged into powerlessness is another issue...Self-confidence in my goals and capabilities definitely fluctuates.

Hm...apparently people with Mars square Neptune have the ability to convince others.

Oddly enough, this is not really the case. Some people think I'm impressive (I realize I DO have a charismatic streak, but I'm a genuine person), but others have a hard time understanding me and dismiss me as nuts. I find the world as it is uninspiring, and I feel like something better is possible. Unfortunately, my vision of how things could be is rejected as fantasy.

And then, my tendency of complaining too much puts people off...I don't realize how annoying I can be when I'm upset about the way things are etc.

Martial arts helps me deal with bottled-up feelings fairly well though.




What is the best way of coping with Mars Square Neptune?

I like the martial arts thing. I lift and play football and basketball to burn off stress. I use physical outlets and yea I agree it is difficult. I'm slowly maturing and it's painful but neccessary

[Sweet Pea]

I think the self-doubt may manifest as "not deserving" to have what one wants.

Mars should express and 'action' the desires and purposes of the Sun. When Mars is debilitated by Neptune, there will be a tendency to be easily led by other people's expectations and desires. A feeling that their needs are more important than yours.

This is a misunderstanding of the 'oneness' principle of Neptune. In actual fact, everyone's needs should carry an equal weight of deservability. Mars should not allow himself to be sacrificed all the time to other people's needs. When this happens, the martyr emerges and all kinds of sullen resentments are suppressed in the subconscious, out of which they will one day erupt.

Neptune dissolves your boundaries and gives you a leaky aura. That means other people's goals and agendas can easily be "inserted" into your aura, and also that your energy can be siphoned off and used by other people, leaving you feeling quite drained. Neptunians typically attract Plutonian takers and controllers and need to be "on guard".

[Just Joy]

@Money
Totally get you're words about Nep/Mars square.... Personally, my Nep conj AC / squ Mars conj MC lends to lots of personal ideas I have yet to kick-a-poo punch into 10th & 9th house mode. My Scorp Nep is conj AC, Mer & Venus rx ....plus conj sun via association (all in scorp). When in play with Mars /MC square in w/firey Leo . . . .lol... I don't know how to act!

[m0ney*p0wer*re$pect]

I keep coming back here because this aspect is difficult for me. My mars is in the 1st and Neptune and the 4th and I can tell u that my family is where my identity issues come from. Feeling like a failure if I choose not to go to college, feeling like an atheist if I miss church, always trying to fulfill and ideal person that they set for me. I feel constricted around my extended family now, because I'm not like them, I kno how to explain I'm just deciding if I want to spill it out on here

But I kno my setbacks are my fault. My biggest desire is to be down to earth, to plant my feet on the ground and feel the dirt and concrete. I can start easily but I have lack of follow thru burning out quickly out of frustration and fear of failure. This placement is hard because it takes alot of consciousness and alot of control. My mind gets the best of me almost everyday and I find myself in another world while the real world spins around me and when I wake up I end up playing catch up and running an imaginary race.


The things I must do hard feel extremely hard to cuz I fantasize about it going one way and it turns out different. I need to just stop thinking and reconnect with myself
And live not dream

[poyi]

Originally Posted by Night Sky

Ascendant, Mars: Virgo

Venus Libra, house 1

Pluto, Saturn Scorpio H2

Sun: Scorpio H3

Mercury, Uranus Jupiter: Sagittarius H3

Neptune Sagittarius IC

Moon Aries H8

We have very similar chart!! Goodness....
astro_245gw_01_po_201256.47158.17568.jpgastro_2gw_01_po_hw.23812.19091.jpg

By the way, I have NEVER into drugs or drinking alcohol or lived by the sea, none of that happened. BUT! I look after many people that are drug addicted and suffer from alcohol abused, and I highly involved with medications (working as a registered nurse, I have lost count how much medications I ever had given to patients, that must be because Jupiter is also here to expand!!). I always want to live by the sea though!!! I personally think the whole sign housing described me better.

And I never doubt myself, when I know what I want, I have always been the Go and Get kind of person....Mars in Virgo but very powerful in my chart, with Scorpio stellium, I am also very certain about myself. When I was younger I had self-esteem problem but not anymore, I grown up to be very confident in many aspects, of course I have my own vulnerable time and reasons to become vulnerable...

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by m0ney*p0wer*re$pect

I keep coming back here because this aspect is difficult for me. My mars is in the 1st and Neptune and the 4th and I can tell u that my family is where my identity issues come from. Feeling like a failure if I choose not to go to college, feeling like an atheist if I miss church, always trying to fulfill and ideal person that they set for me. I feel constricted around my extended family now, because I'm not like them, I kno how to explain I'm just deciding if I want to spill it out on here

But I kno my setbacks are my fault. My biggest desire is to be down to earth, to plant my feet on the ground and feel the dirt and concrete. I can start easily but I have lack of follow thru burning out quickly out of frustration and fear of failure. This placement is hard because it takes alot of consciousness and alot of control. My mind gets the best of me almost everyday and I find myself in another world while the real world spins around me and when I wake up I end up playing catch up and running an imaginary race.


The things I must do hard feel extremely hard to cuz I fantasize about it going one way and it turns out different. I need to just stop thinking and reconnect with myself
And live not dream

I understand you as I have the aspect exact in Libra and Neptune is my chart ruler. If it were not for my Taurus Moon I would find it difficult to live on this Earth plane where we have to walk etc rather than just fly around as a spirit.

[*emma*]

I have the trine here. In my experience it is a little debilitating when you want or need to take action. Like nothing is straightforward. Self sabotaging imo. Obviously no aspect alone has all the power. I also have an exact mars pluto sextile which never fails me when i want something, the neptune aspect causes trouble sometimes in me not knowing what I want. Then again my mars is in cancer which is in fall to start with too safety conscious and a libra sun which dithers so much. I dont think the mars neptune aspect is about self doubt at all, it is doubt in a general hazy sense which stops and frustrates the mars energy.

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by *emma*

I have the trine here. In my experience it is a little debilitating when you want or need to take action. Like nothing is straightforward. Self sabotaging imo. Obviously no aspect alone has all the power. I also have an exact mars pluto sextile which never fails me when i want something, the neptune aspect causes trouble sometimes in me not knowing what I want. Then again my mars is in cancer which is in fall to start with too safety conscious and a libra sun which dithers so much. I dont think the mars neptune aspect is about self doubt at all, it is doubt in a general hazy sense which stops and frustrates the mars energy.

I think the conjunction lends to loss of drive and energy at times. I have Mars Neptune wide sextile to Pluto which I think often saves me.

[Absynthe]

I have this aspect. I dislike it very much. I want a mars-pluto conjunction. Who wants to trade?

[m0ney*p0wer*re$pect]

All it takes is self control and awareness, I guess this aspect gets a bad rap cuz no one talks about the success they had with it. It's body builders with mar Neptune aspects as well as athletes

[Absynthe]

Originally Posted by m0ney*p0wer*re$pect

It's body builders with mar Neptune aspects as well as athletes

That is incorrect. With body builders and athletes i would look for mars-pluto aspects and probably saturn. Mars-neptune would give artists and such.