The malefics and having children

[holly]

Does anyone have any experience with charts that have the malefics in the 5th House, regarding stories of child birth and raising children?

I am wondering if several things occur....

- The malefics in the fifth house suggest that pregnancy and giving birth could be life-threatening for the native.

- Having a child would bring hardship upon the native: either the baby would be born with birth defects and require an enormous commitment of care, or in some other way, raising a child would bring misfortune to the parents.

- People with Mars, Saturn or even Pluto in the fifth should NOT have children unless they are willing to risk their life through a bad pregnancy and birth, or take on the challenge of raising a difficult child.

In your experience, are any of these hypothesis true?

[starlink]

Hello Holly, I will get back to you a bit later in the day, must run now. From what you describe there, certain things might be true, others not at all, so I would like to comment on that. Cheers, Starlink

[NekhbetII]

From personal experience, having Pluto (retrograde) in 5th I would say that it is true. Wish I would have been aware of this placement a few years ago before I tried to conceive and subjected myself to fertility treatments that still turned up null.

As a child, I instinctively did NOT want to have children. When asked if I wanted to be a "mommy" back them I would basically say "no". But then you get older and people start trying to tell you and act as if having a child is the thing to do. So in my first marriage, I folded and tried to do the family thing. That decision invited nothing but grief and heartache.

Wiser now and more accepting of myself :-) Second marriage, was blessed with a husband who does not want to have children. And he came to that conclusion by reflecting on his own childhood and watching others with theirs.

Ironically his best friend also had Pluto and Moon in 5th like me. He and his wife had several children but my husband did often note how hard it was on his friend to take care of his family. And from what I witness as a father he did struggle because the bunch was a handful.

[Adarahaspolias]

Yeah, from my own personal experience I can confirm that there is something to that.

I have no planets in my 5th, but it has Capricorn on the cusp, making Saturn it's Ruler.

Under my pregnancy I had to flee from the land I was living in because a bunch of hooligans took a disliking to my now ex-husband, hence they threatened to kidnap me and cut my child out of my stomach. I moved to DK and the birth went fine, especially considering I used no medication of any kind whilst birthing but alas it turned out that my son has ADHD and I recently discovered that we have a very inharmonious synastry. The love I have for my child is frightening, for the first 5 years of his life I was plagued by anxiety, fear of losing him, it made me very ill, hence I almost did lose him. Until I woke up and discovered that our fears and thoughts create our reality, what we focus on is what we get.

So if one is unconsciously allowing one's astrological matrix to "rule" over oneself then yes, malifics can be hell. But when one chooses to consciously work with and rise above such influences then one takes one's own fate and destiny into one's own hands.

Easier said than done I know...but I'm getting there

[NekhbetII]

@ Adarahaspolias - "easier said than done I know...but I'm getting there" bless on your journey :-)

@Holly - This post prompted me to look over some charts that I have on file (I am a novice but learning). There are several women with either Pluto or Saturn in their 5th houses. All of these women either have or have had strained relationships with their children. Children born to several of these women were raised by another member of the family.

All of these women have only given birth to girl(s).

[starlink]

So if one is unconciously allowing ones astrological matrix to "rule" over oneself then yes, malifics can be hell. But when one chooses to conciously work with and rise above such influences then one takes one's own fate and destiny into one's own hands.

Oh wow, this is sooo true!!! Very well spoke Adara! (sorry not to write your whole name, too complicated)

I have Mars in Aries in the 5th, inconjunct the Ascendant and sextile Uranus in 7 as well as trining my MC. My 5th house is ruled by Neptune who opposes Venus in my 5th. I had very easy pregnancies and childbirth, only thing, I was morning sick till almost up to the end of my pregnancy!! I have two wonderful children. They dont give me grief at all personally,we are very strongly connected, they are my life more or less, but their lives and what they now as adults go through sometimes, does make me worry a lot about them both. But they go through ups and downs and dont we all? right now both are on the up.
Funny thing I noticed, when something affects my children,and something is not going so well in their life, then things also go badly in my own life, even though totally unrelated to them. So always look at transits to the 5th house for yourself, but also in relation to your children. Often they also have similar things happening to them.

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by holly

In your experience, are any of these hypothesis true?

Well, I have 500 charts for famous people. I did a search to see who had Mars, Saturn, or Pluto in the 5th House.

There were 108.

Among them were Charles, Prince of Wales, who has two sons. I recognized that many of them have children, but none that had problems that I was aware of. That doesn't necessarily mean anything, as I'm not sure it's representative of the general population.

I'd find it hard to believe that having malefics alone in the 5th would be an indicator of problems, especially if they were dignified or exalted. If they were in fall or detriment, or retrograde perhaps.

I suspect it's more than that, maybe a malefic in hard aspect with the House Ruler. Refining the criteria might give a better answer. It's certainly an interesting theory.

There's definitely a lot of confusion regarding the 5th House and children in general. I have an empty 5th House with Pisces on the 4th and 5th, the ruler Neptune retrograde in Scorpio in the 12th (with Libra on the cusp) squaring a dignified retrograde Saturn intercepted conjuct the South Node in the 3rd and Neptune trining Jupiter in the 4th conjunct Moon opposition Pluto. I've been told everything from I'll never have children to I'll children but they'll bring me sorrow or they'll be ill to I'll have children, but it'll be later in life. Go figure.

[leogirl]

you know i've read that but didn't think much of it because my deliveries were fine. BUT i have saturn in my fifth and one of my children was born with a severe cranio birth condition that thankfully was ok after surgery and another has aspergers. still, all well worth anything. i'm so lucky to have them!

[BobZemco]

How are Saturn and the ruler of the 5th aspected?

[leogirl]

hi bob,

you know i was thinking about the prince charles thing...maybe it's a stretch but while his two children are healthy maybe the misfortune came in choosing diana as his wife (and certainly a huge consideration for him in choosing a specific woman to bear his heirs) and having them with diana who brought a great deal of havoc into his life? not sure.

lg

[leogirl]

bob,

saturn is retrograde in aquarius (my child who had the surgery is an aquarian and supposedly the first child is represented by the fifth house) opposes my sun in 11, squares my moon in 9, trines mars in 10, squares neptune in 3, opposes north node in 11 and trines midheaven. oh, and saturn is also the ruler of the fifth house. what do you make of the aspects?

thanks,
lg

[leogirl]

one more thing bob...it just occurred to me (duh) that the aspects in my chart are those that make up my grand square.

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by leogirl

bob,

saturn is retrograde in aquarius (my child who had the surgery is an aquarian and supposedly the first child is represented by the fifth house) opposes my sun in 11, squares my moon in 9, trines mars in 10, squares neptune in 3, opposes north node in 11 and trines midheaven. oh, and saturn is also the ruler of the fifth house. what do you make of the aspects?

thanks,
lg

There are two ways to read the chart. You can turn it, or use the house counting method. The counting method can be a little clumsy, so it's simpler just to turn the wheel to put the house in question on the Ascendant. You follow?

The 5th represents children, and in particular your first born. Logically, the 5th house from the 5th House represents your children's children (your grand-children). Always count the house in question, so 5, 6, 7, 8, the 9th House represents your grand-children. If you turned the wheel to bring the 5th House to the Ascendant, you'd find the 9th House is now the 5th House.

What house represents your siblings? The 3rd, so the 3rd from the 5th (the 7th House) is your second child. The 3rd from the 7th House is the 9th (your third child), and so on.

The 8th House is the house of surgery, and the 6th House is the house of illness. The 6th house from the 5th House would be the 10th House. If you turned the wheel to place the 5th House on the Ascendant, you'd find the 10th House is now the 6th House, where we find Mars which represents the head. Since Mercury represents the brain, we'd want to look at the signs for Mars and Mercury, and what aspects they make, especially any to the ruler of the 6th House (the 10th in your chart) and the ruler of the 8th House (surgery and the 12th House in your chart).

For your 2nd child, you'd look at the 6th house from the 7th (the 12th) and for Asperger's, you'd want to look at the interplay between Uranus and Mercury and the ruler of the 9th (the 3rd from the 7th). I say the 3rd because it rules the conscious mind and I don't consider Asperger's to be a form of mental illness (where you'd normally look to the 12th House).

If Saturn opposes the North Node, then it is conjunct the South Node, which indicates sorrow or misfortune.

I'm trying to figure out how Saturn in the 5th could trine Mars in the 10th. Do you have an intercepted house? Mars would have to be in Gemini. Out of sign aspects are possible. It seems to me that Mars would be quincux Saturn, indicating a major adjustment.

[leogirl]

wow ok this is pretty amazing in light of the issues at hand with my children. mars is in gemini in the tenth as you said and mercury is in cancer in the 11th. the ruler of my tenth house is also mercury...let's see the aspects. mercury only makes one major aspect, mercury conjunct sun. mars is square venus in virgo in my first house, mars square jupiter retrograde in pisces in 7, mars trine saturn in aqua in 5, mars square pluto in virgo in 1, sextile node in 11, square asc and square mc.

[VENUS]

i heard mars in the 5th house good for reproduction? especially in a water sign?....(at least thats what my astrologer friend in NYC told me) i dont know if i would necessarily consider it such a bad thing, i guess depending on the aspects....but

my mother has mars in 5th in cancer and she couldnt stop getting pregnant, even when she was older....and when she gave birth to me she said it was so traumatizing that her body was paralyzed to the pain....she described it as a very difficult birth...hence my pluto tight on my asc (that symbolizes that I was a difficult birth right?)

i was her 2nd pregnancy, cusp of her 7th house (2nd child) is virgo, and my mars is tightly conjunct her ascendent...so i guess thats how it represents me....

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by leogirl

wow ok this is pretty amazing in light of the issues at hand with my children. mars is in gemini in the tenth as you said and mercury is in cancer in the 11th. the ruler of my tenth house is also mercury...let's see the aspects. mercury only makes one major aspect, mercury conjunct sun. mars is square venus in virgo in my first house, mars square jupiter retrograde in pisces in 7, mars trine saturn in aqua in 5, mars square pluto in virgo in 1, sextile node in 11, square asc and square mc.

The 6th House is the natural sign of Virgo and Venus is its ruler, as is Mercury. People with Mars (which rules the head and face) in the 6th House tend to be prone to head injuries, or even headaches and other problems with the head.

Your 2nd son is the 7th House and moving him to the first puts the 11th House in the place of the 5th House. I suspect Mercury/Sun might be close to the 6th House cusp enough to influence it, or as Pelletier and others would say, it actually is in the 6th. You might get a better feel using an equal house chart.

Given the basic structure, you might want to look at semi-squares and sesquiquadrates to Mercury/Sun. Those are related to squares and not as powerful, but they are equally irritating and frustrating.

[leogirl]

my sun is right at the start of my 10th house (my second child's w aspberger's fourth house correct?) and mercury is closer to my 11th (second child's fifth?). my sun is semisextile mars and semiquadrate jupiter. mercury is inconjunct north node.

another thing, i noticed that in my second child's chart her mercury and venus (both in libra) are both in the 12th with both squaring neptune in aquarius in the third. could this indicate communication issues?

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by leogirl

another thing, i noticed that in my second child's chart her mercury and venus (both in libra) are both in the 12th with both squaring neptune in aquarius in the third. could this indicate communication issues?

Yes. The 12th House concerns mental health, and also the state of mind, as well as the subconscious mind. As I said before, I don't consider Asperger's to be a mental health issue, but it does affect the state of mind. Like autism, it's more about communicating and integrating all of the stimuli in one's environment (which the 3rd also rules). If Libra's on the 12th, then Capricorn is probably on the 3rd and with Neptune there, that suggets strong parental influence or control, which you will have to exercise to bring her to a level where she will have self-confidence and function on her own. I believe that will start to occur as progressed Mercury moves into her 1st House (but note progressed Venus will be in detriment when it moves into Scorpio).

[leogirl]

ok yes i agree with you on it not being a mental illness at all. you seem to have a good understanding of the issues of autism. saturn is on her third house as you said. i'm uploading her chart in case anything really stands out to you. thanks.

[BobZemco]

Moon in Leo conjunct MC, trine Pluto and opposing Uranus, she'll be very emotional and a bit stubborn. The Moon represents you, and conjunct MC shows that you'll have a lot of control and influence over her, but we already knew that because of her condition.

People with Uranus in the 4th have unusual home lives, sometimes chaotic or discordant. It often indicates divorced parents, more so if there's an aspect to one of the planets representing the parents. They often move around a lot, but in this case Aquarius is fixed, so we wouldn't expect that. She does have some natural leadership qualities.

Jupiter in the 8th gives her a long peaceful life, and the ability to handle money (but not necessarily her money).

Her progressed Sun will conjunct Venus ruler of the 7th in about 28 years. I'd be thinking about saving for a wedding if I were you, especially since progressed Jupiter will also be conjunct natal Sun in the 11th and Venus will be moving to conjunct the North Node in the 9th.

[holly]

Thanks for providing a good discussion on this topic everyone. It's very interesting to see some real-life examples of what my intuition suspected.

Anyway, I have another question I have been considering. Is there much difference in the Fifth House of a man's chart, and the Fifth House in a woman's? Would the man's fifth house still signify child birth and child rearing, or is that meaning eliminated?

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by holly

Anyway, I have another question I have been considering. Is there much difference in the Fifth House of a man's chart, and the Fifth House in a woman's? Would the man's fifth house still signify child birth and child rearing, or is that meaning eliminated?

The 5th is about children and attitudes toward children. To learn about child-rearing, look to the 4th.

I was taught to look at the ruler of the 5th, not the planets in the 5th as they would only describe your attitude toward children. Your first child is the 5th House and to learn about them, you move the 5th to the Ascendant and read it like a natal chart. I usually do that printing the chart then renumbering the houses starting with the 5th as the Ascendant. Your 2nd child is the 7th, and you do the same thing.

Most people ignore the 11th House, which is adopted children and step-children. The same rules apply. You move the 11th to the Ascendant and read the chart. The 2nd adopted child or next youngest step-child is the 11th from from the 11th (the 9th) so you put that on the Ascendant and read it.

I have limited evidence that if the 5th and 11th House rulers are conjunct or in trine, there's a greater chance of having adopted or step-children.

Also look at the relationship between the 7th and the 5th House rulers and the 9th and 5th House rulers (the 9th for the second spouse) or the 11th and 5th House rulers (the 11th for the 3rd spouse) for step-children/adopted children.

[holly]

Why do you consider the 4th to be about child-rearing? If the 4th describes our home life, our parents and our roots, can it also describe the way we raise our children?

So planets in the fifth tell of our attitude towards children. The ruling planet of the fifth will tell us more about our own children, as well as using derived (is that the word?) houses and using the fifth as the ASC.

A couple of questions about that....

What information can you gain from using the chart like that? Obviously you don't mean the turned chart is literally the child's chart, because that doesn't work. So does the turned chart, where the mother's 5th house becomes the Asc of the child, only descirbe the mother's attitude and perception towards her child?

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by holly

Why do you consider the 4th to be about child-rearing? If the 4th describes our home life, our parents and our roots, can it also describe the way we raise our children?

Yes. Having Uranus in the 4th is not good. Chaos, strife, violence if aspected hard with Mars, often lots of moving from one home (or usually one lover) to another (more common for women than men because of the financial situation). Sometimes arguments or violence between the parents. Saturn often denotes strict authority and discipline. Neptune too much idealism, sometimes alcohol abuse. Pluto also authority issues or lots of "family secrets."

Originally Posted by holly

So planets in the fifth tell of our attitude towards children.

Do you like them. Are you one of those who likes children, as long as they're someone elses. Do you idealize them, dote on them, or whatever.

Originally Posted by holly

The ruling planet of the fifth will tell us more about our own children, as well as using derived (is that the word?) houses and using the fifth as the ASC.

Houses within houses, derived houses, it's all the same thing. Planets in Houses by Pelletier uses derivative house relationships with derivative house meanings (I bought a used copy for $4 on the internet).

Originally Posted by holly

What information can you gain from using the chart like that? Obviously you don't mean the turned chart is literally the child's chart, because that doesn't work.

No, it isn't the child's chart, but that doesn't mean it isn't accurate. In astrology, there's more than one way to skin a cat. This planet in this sign in this house indicates leadership qualities. Is that the only combination? No. Other planets in other signs in other houses can indicate leadership qualities, just as planets in aspect in certain signs/houses can indicate leadership qualities.

Does Uranus in the 1st House trine Neptune in the 4th mean you'll drown to death? Maybe. But then so might Pluto in a water sign in the 4th.

You can take several different roads and all of them will lead you to the same fork in the road.

Originally Posted by holly

So does the turned chart, where the mother's 5th house becomes the Asc of the child, only descirbe the mother's attitude and perception towards her child?

No, it describes the child, but perhaps not in full detail. Maybe you have Neptune in the 5th and turn the chart so now Neptune's in the 1st. You say, oh, my child will have charisma. Then the child is born and you're disappointed because Neptune is elsewhere. But then you see other indicators in the child's chart that show charisma. Venus in the 10th and/or Venus conjunct Jupiter and/or Sun trine Uranus etc etc.

Maybe Jupiter is in the 8th, but when the child's born it isn't. Then you see the child's natal chart has Jupiter in Pisces in the 4th sextiling the ruler of the 8th in the 2nd or Jupiter conjunct Ascendant sextiling the ruler of the 8th in the 10th

All three of those placements basically mean the exact same thing (long life, peaceful death, and some positive or beneficial relationship involving other people's finances or resources), there's just some subtle differences as to how exactly it plays out.

Can you progress a turned chart? I don't know, never tried it. I suppose n theory you could, but I don't think it would as valuable as using the real natal chart.

[holly]

Thanks Bob for teaching me something new today. It's been a pleasure discussing things with you. I'm off to start turning some charts...