Proper House System for Traditional Astrology

[dr. farr]

Robert Hand mentions that perhaps the Greco/Romans used porphyry for assessing certain elements of planetary strength, but is adamant that whole sign was used in making horoscopic delineation; the first statement (in extant literature) regarding the use by some astrologers of the porphyry system in horoscopic delineation, is by Olympiodorus in the mid 6th century.
Looking at Manilius, Valens, Sextus Empricus, Maximus, Antiochus, Paulus Alexandrianus, we find only whole sign formats; looking at Firmicus Maternus we seem to find the earliest clear reference to Equal house; at the 7th century we find Rhetorius using a quadrant system (which later became known as the Alchabitius house system)

One thing to note: the contrast between what is in Ptolemy and what is in Valens is striking-they are NOT AT ALL alike, in their repsective treatment of astrological elements and doctrines-you will find this well illustrated in the over view to the full translation of Valens work. Some have stated that Ptolemy represented the attempted theoretical aristotelianizing systemization of astrology, whereas Valens represented astrology AS IT ACTUALLY WAS PRACTICED during those centuries-I myself accept this concept, and that is one of the reasons I do not credit Ptolemy nearly as much as do other followers of our astrological art...

[dhundhun]

Originally Posted by byjove

Dhundhun,

Thanks for the info. - I really needing to tidy up the development of astrology better in my head. As for modern astrology, I wonder what the ancients would have thought about our 'newer' planets? What would have been the process of determining their place? I read that when astronomers found Pluto, they were very disapppointed because they say whatever is affecting planetary orbits out that far is far, far, bigger than Pluto - so that something is left to be found. But I hear crazy-types claiming this would be the 'true', 'long-lost' ruler of Virgo etc. so many people desperate to re-arrange things...given the amount of time put into everything up until Lily's time, I don't see the sense in RUSHING assign and define, even before things are found... So ancient, medieval, then modern.

Well, Eris/Xena was found to be larger than Pluto, accepted as 10th planet and degraded to "DWARF PLANET" same year Pluto was astronomically degraded to "DWARF PLANET". There are three more trans Neptunians of relatively similar sizes - slightly smaller. Asteroids also brought some changes. Ceres, Vesta, Juno, Pallas are few to name.

There is no clear placeholder of Virgo. Also, Pluto is not a good placeholder of Scorpio.

Being realistic will keep away from getting disappointments. Focus on things relatively more deterministic while learning and practicing.

After observing few events of chart, it is always possible to know some sensitive points in a chart, where nothing is there (Planet, Asteroids, Stars, Comets, Arabic Parts, Progressions, Reverse Progressioan and so on). Treat some object to be there and continue using that point for future analysis in that chart.

Good Luck.

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by byjove

Do you mean you calculate your chart ruler to be something other than the ruler of the ASC?

I only reverse the power of the 6th/12th Houses. Ibn Ezra says the 12th is more powerful than the 6th House (he gives it 2 points) and everything I've seen shows the reverse so I give 2 points to the 6th and one 1 point to the 12th (the exact opposite of ibn Ezra). Other than that I calculate the Chart Ruler as he does. Well, actually I suppose it would help to know if used Chaldean Terms or Egyptian Terms (or perhaps Ptolemy's Pterms). The Chaldean Terms are vastly different, but the difference between the Egyptian Terms and Ptolemy's Pterms are more or less cosmetic.

Originally Posted by byjove

It's been a while since I read about that. Is it a question of dignity, rulership over other houses, contact with benefics/malefics?

You look at five points in the Chart: Ascendant, Sun, Moon, Lot of Fortune, and the pre-Natal Moon (the one before birth not the one based on chart type).

It's 5 for Sign, 4 for Exaltation, 3 for Triplicity (Dorothean) and 2 for Term Ruler (Egyptian Terms). He gives 1 for Decan Ruler, but I think that is a mistranslation of the Greek and don't use it (that would be the other difference in the way I calculate it). I give a point if there is a partile aspect or if a Planet is in its proper facing. To see facing, just print up a Natural/Flat Wheel and draw in the Planets that rule the Signs. As you can see, Mercury should always be inconjunct to Sun or Moon, Venus should always be in a sextile to Sun or Moon and so on. Jupiter Diurnal should be in a trine position to the Sun, Jupiter nocturnal a trine position to the Moon (and inconjunct to Saturn and so on).

Give 7 to the Planet that rules that day, and 6 to the Hour Ruler. Houses get points from 12 to 1 in this order: 1st 10th, 7th, 4th, 11th, 5th, 2nd, 9th, 8th, 3rd, 12th and 6th houses.

Originally Posted by byjove

Do you use degree-based aspects only or also sign-based?

Degree. Apparently the Greeks used a 3° Orb and somehow that got blown into a 6° Orb and then they ended up with Moiety Orbs.

I use Moiety for applying, 3° for an Inferior separating and 6° for a Superior separating.

I guess it comes down to how you see a Planet influencing another as opposed to being connected/joined to another, because they aren't the same thing and that is something that appears to have been lost in translation(s).

Originally Posted by byjove

And for effects in one's life - aspect to ASC, houses from ASC or Plac/Porp/Regio house?

Well, the Planet has to be connected in some way to the House it either rules or has dominion over (in the event the Planet is an Almuten).

It is enough for that Planet to be connected by Sign, rather than by aspect. Dr. Farr could probably explain that better, but it is the Greek concept of "witnessing" or "testifying."

If you are square to the Ascendant, or House you rule or have dominion over, then you are connected and even though you aren't at home (ie in the that House) you can pick up the phone and call, send a text message, send an e-mail or tell someone else to go to your home and deliver an important message or check on things.

If you are inconjunct to that House, you're cut off. You have no connection and so no control, sort of like being up in the Himalayas. There aren't any internet cafes or cell-phone towers or phone booths call home and check on things or give important information and you cannot see what is going on.

[DiDi]

After reading all this I dont know what is wright or wrong

I wish it were more simple
1 rule for all

however its not

im a liitle like claire19 I use placidus for my natal charts
if I put it into koch i get pisces 5th house when its incercepted in all other house systems.
doing a solar ark for when i got married using the placidus systme it was smack on.
I like to think of myself as a libral thinker but i cant get my head around whole house system as "I feel" only me not what is right or wrong...
that your making your natal chart have an equal system and thats not what the galaxy is doing. (now this could be that im inexperiance in this method so i cant see it working ) I have no idea to tell.

I have to say for horary i follow lilly so i do use regio when i can remember to press the correct button before casting the chart that is...
Im not any kind of expert and dont have enough in me to be one but i do love to learn.

I was using a 5deg rule but now i dont as it is where it is.

some people say cusp people are a mix of 2 signs
I dont see that, I have family on the cusp and they are all "what sign they are in"
infact i find the earlier the degrres in that sign the more of themselves they are. so why would i use the 5 deg rule makes me a hypercrite to do that.

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by DiDi

I wish it were more simple.

Learn how to calculate the own Houses.

If you understood the theory behind the House Systems, then it makes it easier.

The work that I do using Primary Directions requires an Ecliptic-based system, so a Space-based system like Regiomontanus, Koch and such just don't work (not to mention that some of the theories behind the systems are bizarre and not based on astro-logic -- the Prime Vertical? it's not really relevant).

Originally Posted by DiDi

if I put it into koch i get pisces 5th house when its incercepted in all other house systems.

That doesn't matter. It is the 5th Sign that trines the Ascending Sign regardless if the 5th Sign appears on the 4th House Cusp or 6th House Cusp, the 5th & 6th or the 4th & 5th. The fact that Sign does or doesn't aspect the Ascending Sign is what's important, not it's House placement.

My Sun is in Gemini in the 7th House, but that doesn't alter the fact that Gemini is the 8th Sign and the fact that Sun is in the 7th House doesn't make Sun oppose the Ascendant. A Gemini Sun is inconjunct a Scorpio Ascendant and the Sun's House placement will not alter that reality.

Originally Posted by DiDi

doing a solar ark for when i got married using the placidus systme it was smack on.

Well, accidents happen.

Originally Posted by DiDi

I like to think of myself as a libral thinker but i cant get my head around whole house system as "I feel" only me not what is right or wrong...

But the chart operates on a Whole Sign/House System whether you actually use the Whole Sign System or not.

Originally Posted by DiDi

that your making your natal chart have an equal system and thats not what the galaxy is doing. (now this could be that im inexperiance in this method so i cant see it working ) I have no idea to tell.

No, you're right about the Equal System. Ptolemy never used it, in spite of what people claim.

Originally Posted by DiDi

I have to say for horary i follow lilly so i do use regio when i can remember to press the correct button before casting the chart that is...

Then that is astro-logical. If you're going to follow Lily's method, then you should use the House System he suggests, and the same for any other method (ie Alcabitius with Bonatti, Valens, and a few other Hellenistic Astroogers, Placidus with Placido and so on).

Originally Posted by DiDi

I was using a 5deg rule but now i dont as it is where it is.

Use it with any House System except Whole Sign.

If you are using Whole Sign, Ptolemy and many others considered the Ascendant Region to be 5° before the Ascending Degree and 25° after the Ascending Degree (and the Descendant Region would be the same, as well as the Midheaven Region).

Originally Posted by DiDi

some people say cusp people are a mix of 2 signs I dont see that, I have family on the cusp and they are all "what sign they are in" infact i find the earlier the degrres in that sign the more of themselves they are. so why would i use the 5 deg rule makes me a hypercrite to do that.

The 5° Rule only applies to Planets. A Planet within 5° of a House Cusp is considered to be in the House it is applying to, and it is read as though it is. Some used a graduated scale, 8° for an Angular House, 5° for a Succedent House and 3° for a Cadent House (Bonatti is one) but I don't see that either.

If you do Mundane Charts, you're limited to Porphyry or Alcabitius. You cannot use any other House Systems, because the Chart Ruler is derived based on the Planet with the most Dignity in certain House Cusps. A good example is the Balkan countries, they all have the same Rising Sign and Midheaven, yet only Greece is experiencing financial turmoil.

Why? Because the Chart Ruler for Greece is not the same as the Chart Ruler for the other countries, and a mere 2° difference in House Cusps changes everything.

[DiDi]

thanks bob

yep i got a lot out of that

thankyou again

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by BobZemco

Well, the Planet has to be connected in some way to the House it either rules or has dominion over (in the event the Planet is an Almuten).

It is enough for that Planet to be connected by Sign, rather than by aspect. Dr. Farr could probably explain that better, but it is the Greek concept of "witnessing" or "testifying."

If you are square to the Ascendant, or House you rule or have dominion over, then you are connected and even though you aren't at home (ie in the that House) you can pick up the phone and call, send a text message, send an e-mail or tell someone else to go to your home and deliver an important message or check on things.

If you are inconjunct to that House, you're cut off. You have no connection and so no control, sort of like being up in the Himalayas. There aren't any internet cafes or cell-phone towers or phone booths call home and check on things or give important information and you cannot see what is going on.

I understand the concept of 'witnessing' or 'testifying'. However a thought occurs to me, that if a planet is inconjunct the House it rules, could that inconjunct planet communicate some other way in order to get any of the matters of that house organised/accomplished? For example via its Sign ruler and/or Sign rulers? Or would an inconjunct planet only be able to get its sign ruler to help out if it is in aspect with its sign ruler? Or could the inconjunct planet get things done via its sign ruler if it is in mutual reception (or some form of reception) with its sign ruler?

Which brings me to the idea that, if other planets aspect the ruler of the Sign the inconjunct planet is in, are there any circumstances in which those other planets could act not only on behalf of the inconjunct planet's Sign ruler, but also ultimately act as 'messengers acting on behalf' of the inconjunct planet because the inconjunct planet's Sign Ruler has told them to do that? or would the inconjunct planet have to be in mutual reception (by exaltation, terms/bounds, domicile, Triplicity or a mix of these) with those other planets that aspect its sign ruler before anything, if anything, could be organised on its behalf by those planets?

What I am asking is, could an inconjunct planet be helped by the Exalted, term/bound, Triplicity as well as domicle ruler/rulers of its Sign? If so what would be the conditions governing such assistance? i.e could these conditions be related to mutual reception, mixed reception, aspecting?

Or is an inconjunct planet simply in total isolation in solitary confinement unable to either send or receive messages or hear or be heard - doomed?

I'm supposing that,for example, a planet inconjunct the Ascendant is not much helped by being conjunct any of the possibilities (exalted, term/bound, triplicity, domicile rulers of its sign) because those planets would then necessarily also be inconjunct the ascendant! However, if those exalted, term/bound, triplicity, domicile rulers of the inconjunct planet square, square other planets that are themselves sextile the ascendant, then perhaps the inconjunct planet is not totally unable to communicate with the Ascendant, even if the inconjunct planet cannot 'see it'... just thinking...

[dr. farr]

There is a vast (subtle energetic) inter-connection among the planets, via signs, via decans of signs, via duodenaries (dwads) of signs AND via point of space affinities (terms/bounds, sign monomoiria, planetary monomoiria) and then there is the connection via the planet's dodekatemorion-a MAJOR factor in Greco/Roman astrology right through Paulus Alexandrianus, Maximus, Olympiodorus and even through Rhetorius, which has been almost completely ignored in later Traditionalist astrology right through the current revival of Traditionalist and neo-Hellenistic interest.
So I would have to emphatically say "NO", a disconjunct planet is not necessarily locked into solitary confinement and is by ne means necessarily cut-off from sending or receiving influences-no way!

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by dr. farr

There is a vast (subtle energetic) inter-connection among the planets, via signs, via decans of signs, via duodenaries (dwads) of signs AND via point of space affinities (terms/bounds, sign monomoiria, planetary monomoiria) and then there is the connection via the planet's dodekatemorion-a MAJOR factor in Greco/Roman astrology right through Paulus Alexandrianus, Maximus, Olympiodorus and even through Rhetorius, which has been almost completely ignored in later Traditionalist astrology right through the current revival of Traditionalist and neo-Hellenistic interest.
So I would have to emphatically say "NO", a disconjunct planet is not necessarily locked into solitary confinement and is by ne means necessarily cut-off from sending or receiving influences-no way!

thank you dr. farr for your succinct response - this is most intriguing and most interesting
and I venture to add, most probably a contentious subject matter. I have plenty to mull over... many thanks

[byjove]

Yes indeed! Very useful, intriguing and plenty to think about! Anyone interested in a thread to expend this knowledge? (especially if you've just added to your knowledge, or keen otherwise)

As you mentioned above JupiterASC, there are parts where I'm not sure 'which trumphs which' - and I was wondering about that ASC/planetary inconjunction myself. I remember Chris Brennan has more information on hellenistic natal interpretation which I don't remember being discussed here yet; signs which see each other, signs of 'equal light' etc. I'm probably butchering those terms - it's been a while since I re-read them. I feel like I need a 'cleaning' of astro. ideas, and to test I've categorized the information correctly and can interpret using this information.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by dr. farr

There is a vast (subtle energetic) inter-connection among the planets, via signs, via decans of signs, via duodenaries (dwads) of signs AND via point of space affinities (terms/bounds, sign monomoiria, planetary monomoiria) and then there is the connection via the planet's dodekatemorion-a MAJOR factor in Greco/Roman astrology right through Paulus Alexandrianus, Maximus, Olympiodorus and even through Rhetorius, which has been almost completely ignored in later Traditionalist astrology right through the current revival of Traditionalist and neo-Hellenistic interest.
So I would have to emphatically say "NO", a disconjunct planet is not necessarily locked into solitary confinement and is by ne means necessarily cut-off from sending or receiving influences-no way!

Originally Posted by byjove

Yes indeed! Very useful, intriguing and plenty to think about! Anyone interested in a thread to expend this knowledge? (especially if you've just added to your knowledge, or keen otherwise)
As you mentioned above JupiterASC, there are parts where I'm not sure 'which trumphs which' - and I was wondering about that ASC/planetary inconjunction myself. I remember Chris Brennan has more information on hellenistic natal interpretation which I don't remember being discussed here yet; signs which see each other, signs of 'equal light' etc. I'm probably butchering those terms - it's been a while since I re-read them. I feel like I need a 'cleaning' of astro. ideas, and to test I've categorized the information correctly and can interpret using this information.

Such a thread would be most interesting byjove!

[byjove]

Do any of the older authors believe that planets are exalted by sign, rather than sign and a particular degree? I'm a little unsure given some of the works I've been reading.

Are there any good resources anyone can recommend for older interpretations? Some of the major aspects in Lily's and Valen's work I find to be a little thin on explanation (not all, just some, including some pertinent to me).

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by byjove

Do any of the older authors believe that planets are exalted by sign, rather than sign and a particular degree? I'm a little unsure given some of the works I've been reading.

Are there any good resources anyone can recommend for older interpretations? Some of the major aspects in Lily's and Valen's work I find to be a little thin on explanation (not all, just some, including some pertinent to me).

Do not be too hasty or harsh in your judgement of Valens work! Much that was written by Valens has vanished in the mists of time. What we have is a mere fragment!

Perhaps dr. farr may be of some assistance to you but as he may not have read your post - why not send him a pm ?

[byjove]

Agreed...no harshness! I'm back after being away for a bit. I want to explore some more things, and understanding dignity from older perspectives is one major thing I want to do. I noticed in Valen's work that he seemed to encourage patience when considering a planet's real abilities, nature, positive/negative tendencies etc. Since we're delving deep into older practices here, I wonder if I could leave that one out to tender - an example:

what if a planet is opposing a planet in the sign it rules? what does that mean? It's effects?

or what is the condition of a planet in triplicity (and say sign-exaltation) but out of sect?

I don't remember seeing these kinds of question discussed in a modern interpretation. I did read something about the ambiguity of 'harmonious' trines e.g. Sun trine Jupiter and the caveats with that, but then some other Sun trines are thin on detail...and yet I'd tend to focus on Sun, Moon, ASC+ruler and almuten of the chart, so I'm looking to fill some gaps there.

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

if a planet is inconjunct the House it rules, could that inconjunct planet communicate some other way in order to get any of the matters of that house organised/accomplished?

Yes, it could be in an applying aspect to another Planet, which is in turn in an applying aspect to a 3rd Planet in the inconjunct House/Sign. That is essentially a Transfer of Light.

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

For example via its Sign ruler and/or Sign rulers?

I'm not sure what you mean, but if you mean the Dispositor of the inconjunct Planet being in the House/Sign of the inconjunct Planet, that is a weak form of Mutual Reception. When two Planets are in adjacent Signs, there's a possibility of Reception by Equal Ascension or Equal Power.

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

What I am asking is, could an inconjunct planet be helped by the Exalted, term/bound, Triplicity as well as domicle ruler/rulers of its Sign?

The Exaltation Ruler could. Probably the most obvious example would be Mars in Aries with Sun in Scorpio.

Mars would be inconjunct Scorpio, but with the Sun there, they are in Mutual Reception. Understand that without an aspect, that would be very weak control.

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

Or is an inconjunct planet simply in total isolation in solitary confinement unable to either send or receive messages or hear or be heard - doomed?

Now you're talking more or less a Feral Planet.

You can see one here:



Jupiter aspects the Ascendant Region by sextile, but is inconjunct Pisces.

See also how Jupiter is totally cut off from all the other Planets, since all are in Signs inconjunct to Jupiter.

That is the original "Singleton Planet."

I would love to tell you about it, but I have practically no experience since they are very rare in charts.

However, just to caution you, the Chart Ruler there is Venus (whether you do it ibn Ezra's way or my way) and Venus is inconjunct the Ascending Sign, but she is within the power region of the Ascendant, and that is what you need to be aware of.

Remember the Ascendant is rising clock-wise toward the Midheaven and dragging/pulling the 2nd Sign/House immediately with it. Here Venus is within 25° of the Ascending Degree, so Venus can exercise influence there.

The Sun I would consider inconjunct the Ascendant, but not Venus (nor Mercury).

In looking at that chart, with Venus as Chart Ruler and Jupiter as both Ascendant Ruler and the Almuten of the Ascendant (Jupiter by Sign and is Fire Sect Triplicity Ruler) he had a great deal of control over his life, but he was unable to do that effectively, because Venus is Combust and Jupiter is Feral.

It's possible that influenced him by leading him to a state of hopelessness and despair, and he eventually committed suicide.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

What I am asking is, could an inconjunct planet be helped by the Exalted, term/bound, Triplicity as well as domicle ruler/rulers of its Sign? If so what would be the conditions governing such assistance? i.e could these conditions be related to mutual reception, mixed reception, aspecting?

Originally Posted by BobZemco

The Exaltation Ruler could. Probably the most obvious example would be Mars in Aries with Sun in Scorpio. Mars would be inconjunct Scorpio, but with the Sun there, they are in Mutual Reception. Understand that without an aspect, that would be very weak control..

Thank you for your clear explanation BobZemco.

Originally Posted by BobZemco

[/B]

Now you're talking more or less a Feral Planet.

You can see one here:



Jupiter aspects the Ascendant Region by sextile, but is inconjunct Pisces.

See also how Jupiter is totally cut off from all the other Planets, since all are in Signs inconjunct to Jupiter.

That is the original "Singleton Planet."

I would love to tell you about it, but I have practically no experience since they are very rare in charts. However, just to caution you, the Chart Ruler there is Venus (whether you do it ibn Ezra's way or my way) and Venus is inconjunct the Ascending Sign, but she is within the power region of the Ascendant, and that is what you need to be aware of.

Remember the Ascendant is rising clock-wise toward the Midheaven and dragging/pulling the 2nd Sign/House immediately with it. Here Venus is within 25° of the Ascending Degree, so Venus can exercise influence there.
The Sun I would consider inconjunct the Ascendant, but not Venus (nor Mercury). In looking at that chart, with Venus as Chart Ruler and Jupiter as both Ascendant Ruler and the Almuten of the Ascendant (Jupiter by Sign and is Fire Sect Triplicity Ruler) he had a great deal of control over his life, but he was unable to do that effectively, because Venus is Combust and Jupiter is Feral. It's possible that influenced him by leading him to a state of hopelessness and despair, and he eventually committed suicide.

[DreamingTheSeas]

Originally Posted by BobZemco

....



It's the Planet or Chart Point that rules your "Life Essence" (for lack of a better word) and determines (in part) when you die.

It's a Planet or Lot of Fortune in the 7th, 9th, 10th or 11th Signs. If a Planet is in one of those Signs and it's a Day Chart, then the Planet that has the most Dignity in the Sun, Ascendant and pre-Natal New Moon is pitted against the Sun and Moon to see which of those three is the most powerful. If none are, then you look at Sun and Moon, and if they aren't in the 7th, 9th, 10th or 11th Houses then you automatically take the Ascendant.

In a Night Chart, you look at the Planet in the 7th, 9th, 10th or 11th Signs to see which has the most Dignity in the Moon, pre-Natal Full Moon and the Lot of Fortune, and pit that against the Moon and Sun to see which is the most powerful. If no Planets are in those Signs, or none qualify, then you look at Moon and Sun and if they aren't in those Signs, then if the chart is Conjunctional, you take the Ascendant, and if it is Preventional, you take the Lot of Fortune.

Then once you find the Hyleg you Direct it to see how long the Native will live. If the Hyleg is in the 2nd Quadrant, a Feminine Quarter (the 7th, 8th and 9th Houses) you Direct it to the Descendant and that's how long the Native lives, and you modify that by how long it takes the Benefics and Malefics to make aspects to the Descendant, which will either shorten or lengthen the Native's life span.

I've got charts on here that show that with all the math and stuff.



You have to look at the math that they might have been capable of doing at the time. No doubt with better math (and better math skills) and different theories about the Earth (being round or not) and such you can devise different schemes.

Porphyry is easy, because all you do is count the degrees between the Ascendant and the Midheaven (going clock-wise) and then divided by three and that's your 11th and 12th (and 5th and 6th) House Cusps, then count the degrees between the Ascendant and Imum Coeli (going counter clockwise) and then divide that by three.

For everything else you start getting into mathematical acrobatics, trisecting arcs and then projecting various types of Great Circles on to different points of the Ecliptic.

It's a lot of math. A lot of math.




They used Signs.

A Planet that is inconjunct to the Sign it rules, or an Almuten that is inconjunct to the House/Sign it has dominion over or a Planet inconjunct a House/Sign has not control over it. That would be like an actor that is still in the dressing room and neither on-stage nor off-stage.

......

Because i am really FASHINATING when it comes to Astrology and predicting death, it would be so so so so nice if there is a Greek person here who could translate BobZemco' s post to me. My english is not very good and the translate machines are quite incomprehensible.