Self-hatred and self-negation

[Nate of the 12th]

Is it a 12th house issue? This is really deeply ingrained in me
Can anybody else suffering from such a thing bring up their chart?

[aquarius7000]

Could also be the famous Saturn-Sun issues.
Saturn: stability, but also fear and insecurities, passiveness and pessimism, limitation and restraint
Sun: ego, personality, self(worth), confidence and optimism

Look also at houses one (I, my, self), and five (Leo-Sun issues like self-expression..); and how the Moon (emotions, nurturing) is doing placement and aspect-wise.

aquarius7000

[Nate of the 12th]

I don't know how much it is a Saturn thing as I have known many Saturn influenced individual and although there is often some self-hatred they can still be very self-ish, plus there is often a certain superiority complex. I know I have a lot of great skills and I often get positive feedback from people, but still I feel inferior and weak, and hate myself nonetheless. Mummy, on the other hand, is deeply Saturnian and can be a real b****.

[Neptune Rising]

Could also be Saturn in aspect with Moon for emotions, Saturn with Venus for self-love. In natal or progression. Saturn can be such a tough guy! I think he wants to bring structure to the planet that he aspects, and whether its a trine or a square determines how easy the lessons are to learn, I'm guessing. I have the two above aspects, and frequently think thoughts. But having read how destructive such feelings are to the body, literally eating it up over time, whenever I catch myself thinking or , I swap it with a more thought even if it sounds silly, it actually helps.

NR

[aquarius7000]

Originally Posted by Nate of the 12th

I don't know how much it is a Saturn thing as I have known many Saturn influenced individual and although there is often some self-hatred they can still be very self-ish, plus there is often a certain superiority complex. I know I have a lot of great skills and I often get positive feedback from people, but still I feel inferior and weak, and hate myself nonetheless. Mummy, on the other hand, is deeply Saturnian and can be a real b****.

Nate,

Like I said in my earlier post, Saturn on the upside is stability, structure, perseverance, but on the downside fears, pessimism, restrictions..as already mentioned. These are just like the two sides of any coin. Talking about a particular case/chart, one has to always look at the whole chart, and so, a person with a difficult Sun-Sat aspect, but say with lots of fire and air/ a strong Jup etc/ unafflicted Moon, or other helpful aspects to the Sun etc - these kind of factors might then dominate. Also, even a challenging aspect like one of Sat-Sun, can be curbed to one's advantage, if one understands it and makes use of the positive side and balances energies. And, depending on several factors/aspects in the chart (as said above), two people with a same tough aspect, will always live it out differently.

In your particular case, a few pointers with regard to self negation and depression might be: the heavy house 12, and the planets there in aspect to your 5th house (self-expression, personality..), accentuation of the element earth (all personal planets are 'earthy'); a Cap Moon- which is again positively stable, strong.., but negatively loves to brood and moan & is given to seriousness, even pessimism, Moon-Pluto aspects can also be prone to deep thinking and feeling, but also depression; your third house falls in Cancer (as per my software), whose ruler Moon is a bit afflicted in Cap. But notice your lovely Jupiter-Asc, Jup-MC trines, and that nice Taurean Venus so close to your Sun etc, etc - focus on these.

As NR said, think of the silliest thing that can divert your thinking and make you laugh. Our thoughts are in our hands, or actually in our minds, so we have control over them, and can give them the direction or .

aquarius7000

[Nate of the 12th]

I don't really like to laugh again the self-hatred thing
but I do like making other people laugh, which I manage now and then in spite of my weakly brain

[waybread]

Nate, first of all, I hope you have had a recent physical exam, and then also asked your MD to determine if you have clinical depression. A bad case of the "black awfuls" can have a biochemical cause, and medication can be effective. Some people have also found that yoga is helpful. Clinical depression is a medical condition, not a personality issue.

If you do not suffer from clinical depression, I would only then move on to astrological analysis. You are "majoring" in the 12th house in this lifetime. This house of "self undoing" seems to have two successful expressions, from everything I can gather about it. It does seem to mean dedicating one's ego to a higher purpose, because with your sun in the 12th, it is the identity that gets "undone." Some widely recognized people with a 12th house stellium such as you have become deeply spiritual people (philosopher Teilhard de Chardin was one.) Others become very altruistic humantarians like Mother Theresa. You may be involved in a "serve or suffer" lifetime. Service to a higher power if you are at all religious, or service to people who are misfortunate in some way, if you are not, would seem indicated. The 12th is identified with people who are shut-in in some way, such as in hospitals and prisons. Consequently, volunteering at a hospital or hospice, or even at a prison (such as via the John Howard Society or Elizabeth Fry Society], might be beneficial for you. I have to ask, how are you manifesting your 12th house now?

Then you have a T-square involving Mars, your moon, and Pluto. This to me seems like a recipe for your feelings (moon) taking a beating (Mars/Pluto). Ditto for your Saturn/Neptune square, which can shake your sense of self-confidence. Juiter retrograde can also make you feel more serious about life.

Bot wow! You have a huge "yod" configuration in your chart, involving Jupiter sextiling Uranus, and pointing to your Mars/Mercury. Jupiter sextile Uranus suggests that new and unusual things and people can be a source of enjoyment for you. But their discharge into Mars and Mercury in the 12th suggests to me that you may wish to pursue a spiritual philosophy of some sort, or perhaps spending time in nature through hiking (Mercury/Mars) or some other wilderness activity that gives you time to commune with your solitude (12th) in a positive and beautiful setting. I have to wonder, are you getting outside much in the sunshine and fresh air? Your north node of personal growth in Leo in the 3rd house positively needs it. Nobody's morale can stand being indoors too much.

Astrology isn't an exact science (at least not in my hands) but see if any of the above resonates with you. Then I would just suggest you start with baby steps. Little by little, you may find things improving.

With all good wishes for your journey to wellness, Waybread

[Caprising]

What is the difference between people that believe that they are "special" and deserve everything , that is money,health,power,etc, and someone who doesn't ? Try looking at leo and the sun for a start. Leo (while being one of my favourite sun signs (always cheery and fun to be around) has been known to have great self esteem, truly believing that they deserve the best of everything. Why? don't ask me, I don't have any planets in leo, and my sun is in fall, so I don't have these beliefs. With Capricorn rising and saturn in Aquarius in the first, I feel guilty about having more money than I need to live, there are people starving to death as we speak!!! How can I take their share of food? I can't, my cap influence won't let me ignore their plight, even when I "justify" it with thoughts like "theres nothing I can do about them, it's a corrupt government issue" or " the charitable organisations take too much of my donations in order to run themselves, so I won't give" and the list goes on, I could find 50 reasons not to make a difference, but at the end of the day, I know that I don't want to give out of fear, fear of not having a little nest egg for myself in case of emergency (job loss, sickness etc) then theres the underlying agitation that we teenagers/adults experience, and we try to "fix" this with material rewards, the new car, bigger plasma tv, a faster computer, a "better" job with more pay,(all of these "fixes" are temporary), or we can try to escape this underlying agitation through new or better relationships, or by eating lots more food than we really need in order to experience a few hours of a more mellow existance. or we can simply get blind drunk so that we can escape and have a laugh for once. Saturns influence gives one a feeling of responsibility, your more likely to think "how can I change these circumstances so that the world is a more sane,fair place" This is where we get stuck, we are made to feel powerless to change anything, governments that won't take action on the bigger humanitarian issues, big bussiness that rapes the land and trains you through the media to buy buy buy in order to feel satisfied with your life. Deep down inside we feel "drained,frustrated, and angry even though we just took delivery of the newest and latest model whatever. If you want to feel good about yourself then respond to the cap influence in your chart, moon in cap wants to acheive something of value while on the earth plane, something beyond the new car/outfit. Don't fall into the trap of ignoring the negative results of your actions, act with responsibility to the best of your ability/circumstances, and then you will experience a strong sense of acheiving something worthwhile, and some peace of mind.

[Modcleopatra]

wow! what a great inspiration for another capricorn moon over here! (and cap rising)

[Rasalhague]

@Caprising: Well said! (I'm also cap rising)

I'm a very Saturnal person in the sense that I've got Saturn conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Venus, Saturn conjunct Jupiter and cap rising. These aspects all occur in the 8th house.

Like caprising and aquarius said, it can go both ways. The surprising part about it is that people with Venus and Sun in the 10th house, strong fire people and so on confuse the rigidness and feeling responsible with self-hatred. It doesn't take long for people of that nature to start calling you names. I don't know how many times I've been said I must hate myself really bad for 'hating the world that badly'. At least more than 5. Put me in the room with another cappy or Saturnal person and we'll probably have great conversations laughing about the things 'wrong with the world'. Cynical is the type of humor that comes with Saturn and it's not always understood. It certainly isn't a thing that's "in fashion" and "trendy". And that's where it can become confusing for a Saturnal person. If a Saturnal person becomes smart enough to see that his/her own way of looking at the world doesn't mean you hate yourself or the world because you're always that 'negative', there is strength to pull from that. When Saturnians start to do that, it may be interpreted as 'a superiority complex'. Love me or hate me for saying that, but this is my experience with these dynamics between people.

Sometimes I wonder if there's anything you can attribute to a person at all using astrology other than the way 'a certain individual/ group or majority' is going to interpret them. I find it easier to astrologically close in on this interpretation, than how the person would carry themselves in whatever interpretation they are subjected to.

12 is a water house (pisces), just like 8 (scorpio). The people I've known with a few planets in 12 were always a bit poetic in a tragic way (with great feel for drama). I have a feeling this also isn't "fashionable", and maybe why it's causing you thoughts.

[Nate of the 12th]

Originally Posted by waybread

Nate, first of all, I hope you have had a recent physical exam, and then also asked your MD to determine if you have clinical depression. A bad case of the "black awfuls" can have a biochemical cause, and medication can be effective.

Yes I have been defined as clinically depressed, but I dislike that definition as it assumes there is something wrong with my brain instead of something having been wrong in the way I have been brought up. I feel taking drugs will mean faking normalcy.

Originally Posted by waybread

Consequently, volunteering at a hospital or hospice, or even at a prison (such as via the John Howard Society or Elizabeth Fry Society], might be beneficial for you. I have to ask, how are you manifesting your 12th house now?

Actually I greatly fear people because I get hurt way too easily. That's why I shut myself in, which ain't good either because I feel I need social contact (Sun conj Venus?). It's really a lose-lose situation.

Originally Posted by Rasalhague

If a Saturnal person becomes smart enough to see that his/her own way of looking at the world doesn't mean you hate yourself or the world because you're always that 'negative', there is strength to pull from that. When Saturnians start to do that, it may be interpreted as 'a superiority complex'.

Well my experience with Saturnian people is that they like to label people as stupid or dumb, which can have all sorts of negative consequences. This is what I meant by superiority complex. Personally I don't have too much trouble with it as Saturnians usually appreciate my Taurean practicalities, but I don't like it when they do it to somebody else when I'm around as it causes inharmonious vibes and makes me cringe :60: Sun conj Venus again

[wilsontc]

Nate,

You said:

Yes I have been defined as clinically depressed...I feel taking drugs will mean faking normalcy

Take the drugs, they will make you better able to handle your life and help you to better focus your energies. After all, if you have a medical headache and take aspirin to make it go away you are not "faking normalcy" by taking aspirin. In the same way, if you have a mental "headache" and take drugs to make it go away you are not "faking normalcy" by taking the drugs.

And once your head is "clearer" you can realize that, since you KNOW that you are the SOURCE of your "hatred and negation", you are also the CURE as well. Since you have a strong Neptune (spirituality), a strong 12th house (spirituality), and your North node (future goals) conjunct (energy is combined with) your IC (inner world), you can use meditation as an additoinal way (in addition to the drugs) to calm down and to put your fears at rest. Your challenge is to go inward and face what you find there, and you might as well use every tool you have, including taking your drugs and developing your meditative abilities.

Spiritually,

Tim

[Neptune Rising]

Originally Posted by Nate of the 12th

something having been wrong in the way I have been brought up. I feel taking drugs will mean faking normalcy.

Actually I greatly fear people because I get hurt way too easily. That's why I shut myself in, which ain't good either because I feel I need social contact (Sun conj Venus?). It's really a lose-lose situation.

I feel what you are saying here, by the way my Sun is ruled by Saturn, we aren't all that bad, honest

What you are saying above speaks of your pain. I've been reading a fantastic book, 'Anatomy of the Spirit' by Dr Caroline Myss. In particular, I notice fourth chakra issues that you speak of - the heart chakra. We all have pain, our hearts are meant to be broken by various aspects of life, but it is what you do with this pain that matters. Saturn, Pluto and Chiron are frequently around when having such experiences, the big, slow teachers, hard lessons that bring us face to face with our pain. They ask us to look inside ourselves, and get to know ourselves and our pain, the root of our pain and how we might turn it around into forgiveness, the opposite of pain - this can lead to healing of the mind and soul. The choice is up to you whether you hold onto your pain, and blame everyone and everything around you which just amplifies it, or let it go through forgiveness.

Just a thought, 12th house is Pisces, this is all about forgiveness, perhaps it has special meaning to you...

NR

[Nate of the 12th]

Originally Posted by wilsontc

Take the drugs, they will make you better able to handle your life and help you to better focus your energies. After all, if you have a medical headache and take aspirin to make it go away you are not "faking normalcy" by taking aspirin. In the same way, if you have a mental "headache" and take drugs to make it go away you are not "faking normalcy" by taking the drugs.

Yeah but the negativity and dejectedness are part of my personality, a headache would not be. Taking drugs will alter a fundamental trait in me, which has been with me since I can remember. In a way it wouldn't be me anymore. And perhaps I'm looking for reasons? but again the self-hatred part seems to not want me to feel better

Originally Posted by wilsontc

you can use meditation as an additoinal way (in addition to the drugs) to calm down and to put your fears at rest. Your challenge is to go inward and face what you find there, and you might as well use every tool you have, including taking your drugs and developing your meditative abilities.

I used to try meditation, but it was difficult to engage in as a result of my hyper racing mind, and also I don't like being so intimate with myself.

Originally Posted by Neptune Rising

by the way my Sun is ruled by Saturn, we aren't all that bad, honest

NR I wouldn't consider a Capricorn Sun or Ascendant exactly the same as Saturn directly aspecting the Sun....

I don't think it would be as straightforward, forgiving the immoralities of my past.

[waybread]

Originally Posted by Nate of the 12th

Yes I have been defined as clinically depressed, but I dislike that definition as it assumes there is something wrong with my brain instead of something having been wrong in the way I have been brought up. I feel taking drugs will mean faking normalcy.


Actually I greatly fear people because I get hurt way too easily. That's why I shut myself in, which ain't good either because I feel I need social contact (Sun conj Venus?). It's really a lose-lose situation.


Well my experience with Saturnian people is that they like to label people as stupid or dumb, which can have all sorts of negative consequences. This is what I meant by superiority complex. Personally I don't have too much trouble with it as Saturnians usually appreciate my Taurean practicalities, but I don't like it when they do it to somebody else when I'm around as it causes inharmonious vibes and makes me cringe :60: Sun conj Venus again

Nate, maybe holding off on your value judgements would be beneficial. Yes, the value judgements will persist, but just thank them for sharing their opinions, and then tell them, "Catch you later." "Something wrong with your brain"? Where does that come from? If someone accidentally bumped into you with her car through no fault of your own, and you broke your arm, you wouldn't think that the bone fracture indicated some kind of failing on your part. Your brain is no different from your arm in this sense.

Also, if you had a dysfunctional family, your doctor's referral to a clinical psychologist may be really helpful, if you are not seeing one already. This isn't an "either/or" situation. If you've got both depression and memories of a dysfunctional childhood, why not address both?

If you fear people because of a fear of hurt feelings, it suggests to me that it would be helpful to take some very small baby-steps towards the service orientation of the 12th/6th house axis. People far less fortunate than you might benefit from even modest volunteer efforts. Life is all about getting our feelings hurt. Sometimes Big Time. Anyone with an afflicted moon knows all about hurt feelings. But don't you hurt yourself by becoming reclusive?

Maybe some baby steps towards wholeness might be solo. Above, I suggested that you have some chart indicators that walking/hiking in beautiful natural areas might be beneficial to you. Even if you live in a city and don't have transportation, you can find safe places and times to get out and circulate a little. Your Taurus nature might also like gardening, if getting your hands in the soil is possible for you. Sounds like grandma's lecture, I know, I know. But honestly, exercise and sunshine on your retinas are known by medical scientists to be helpful for depression. And please try yoga, also. Any small things you can do are for the good.

Good luck to you, Nate. You deserve to be happier.

[wintersprite1]

Originally Posted by Nate of the 12th

Is it a 12th house issue? This is really deeply ingrained in me
Can anybody else suffering from such a thing bring up their chart?

Hi Nate,

I am a 12th house Sun and Mercury/Mars Conjunct person too. They are in Capricorn and so is the SN... so I do understand the Cappy Moon too. Well, ***** to be us, that said, lets move on.

I have been reading the advice on here and it is all well meaning and comes from the best of intentions, I know that. But, it is hard to get across to someone who does not have to experience the constant cruxifiction of the ego (sun) at our own relentless hand (Mars/Mercury). The Capricorn Moon would additionally feel stifling ( I have a Cancer one, so I get to cry alot!)

You still have a Saturn return coming up and that will make a world of difference. Until that time you may feel that you have little say in what happens to you via Karma (another 12th house issue). You may feel imprisoned by outside circumstances... not able to move ahead.... but those are subconscious decisions on our own part that have put us there. And you can choose to look at it as we need to stay put to learn important lessons about humanity and unconditional love. We are like the Tarot's Hanged Man... suspended... the additional meaning being surrender to the bigger picture and energies at play.

You will do and feel your best when working behind the scenes. You can be the support and the foundation of endeavors, and let someone else take the spotlight. I found working behind the scenes in politics really to my liking.... I designed campaigns and basically put the words in candidate's mouths... and no one knew who I was or ever saw me. I have also worked with mental health groups (mental health 12th house issue) and again behind the scenes making policy decisions.

Basically, the pain you have caused yourself (and it is the house of self undoing) can be turned to understanding for those around you. Now, consider that Capricorn Moon a blessing. No other sign can find such humor in a self denigrating manner. Learn to laugh, and don't be afraid to laugh at your own mishaps. I used to watch the Roadrunner and Wiley Coyote and just crack up over how I could understand what that coyote was going through.

You will be fine.... self worth issues will always surface, but they will be easier and easier to deal with over time when you grasp, "what does matter in the bigger picture of things". I would suggest you look into studying psychology... the placement and that Mercury and Mars would make you a natural. Be very careful of your surroundings, with the planets being in Taurus you may find mood swings with different music and things other's take for granted like lighting, or color of a bedspread. And comedy... watch lots and lots of comedy until you realize there is humor in everything. (and with a lot of 12th house activity... it is okay if you need to see a doctor about depression... comes with the territory sometimes)

TK

[Neptune Rising]

Originally Posted by Nate of the 12th

NR I wouldn't consider a Capricorn Sun or Ascendant exactly the same as Saturn directly aspecting the Sun...

I don't think it would be as straightforward, forgiving the immoralities of my past.

Nate I'm not comparing my Saturn Sun to your Saturn to Sun issues, I believe it is far better to find a way through our wounds, through understanding ourselves, accepting ourselves and forgiving ourselves. And I'm not at all saying it is straightforward, its a step by step process, time and 'easiness' are irrelevant, its the journey into ourselves that matters. Good luck on your journey Nate.

NR

[Hey]

I think a lot in society is lacking for having an overwhelming amount of people to feel this way.

[smilingsteph]

Hi Nate-
Hey- I agree with what you are saying, but:
We OWN our feelings, I can understand being abused, beat down by life...but the feelings we keep within are ours....now what we do with them is OUR choice....
I do agree that there are not enough resources in this world to make things better for our needs...something external does effect us on the internal...however I guess it is up to us and us alone to help eachother and to help others to rid of this self-hatred we all can have within...

Nate-
Robert Hand says:
that a large number of planets in the 12th house means that they are at a critical stage...they are in a crisis point within the 12th house...and if they are left unresolved then the negative energies are expressed...
(now can someone deduce what this actually means in Nates chart?)

Like we alienate ourselves from the energies in the 12th house and then look for those things in other people....
It says here in the book that women with a mars placed here...will alienate her mars influence...and go and look for a man with strong mars placements to fufill the lack within her...

Secrecy within the 12th....holding onto these planets as a secret, holding onto who you are is a secret...you may not truly understand yourself, so sometimes not knowing who you are can lead to feeling inferior, self-doubt, and what you expressed in the opening of the thread

Saturn return can bring about unpleasant things, as it has with mine, but it also has shown me who I am...what i am capable of and what I need to change about myself...

[smilingsteph]

Also I am not sure if it has been brought up, but wouldnt nate have issues with change? With things of the 12th house, as these planets are in that fixed taurus energy?

[wintersprite1]

I was looking at the chart again and realized that the equal house system was being used. I am uploading your chart with the Placidus system. Does it make much of a difference? Well the Moon is now in the 9th (higher learning!!! ) and Pluto has moved to the 6th. Most telling is that Taurus and all of your 12th house planets are intercepted. Kind of a double whammy on feeling isolated.

I am not an expert on intercepted houses and am going to PM EJ53 and see if he can help out on how to unlock that interception.



TK

[Hey]

Originally Posted by smilingsteph

Hi Nate-
Hey- I agree with what you are saying, but:
We OWN our feelings, I can understand being abused, beat down by life...but the feelings we keep within are ours....now what we do with them is OUR choice....
I do agree that there are not enough resources in this world to make things better for our needs...something external does effect us on the internal...however I guess it is up to us and us alone to help eachother and to help others to rid of this self-hatred we all can have within...

Nate-
Robert Hand says:
that a large number of planets in the 12th house means that they are at a critical stage...they are in a crisis point within the 12th house...and if they are left unresolved then the negative energies are expressed...
(now can someone deduce what this actually means in Nates chart?)

Like we alienate ourselves from the energies in the 12th house and then look for those things in other people....
It says here in the book that women with a mars placed here...will alienate her mars influence...and go and look for a man with strong mars placements to fufill the lack within her...

Secrecy within the 12th....holding onto these planets as a secret, holding onto who you are is a secret...you may not truly understand yourself, so sometimes not knowing who you are can lead to feeling inferior, self-doubt, and what you expressed in the opening of the thread

Saturn return can bring about unpleasant things, as it has with mine, but it also has shown me who I am...what i am capable of and what I need to change about myself...

Oh, I'm not saying we have no say in our future, but what society has as a model for us is horrid. Look at the things that matter in our world. Those problems need to be addressed because we do take society in us, whether we know it or not.
We need better leaders today.

[Nate of the 12th]

I don't think that all that said I am going to be able to let these issues go. I think that ultimately it arises from things in my past that I did (Sun-Mars can be a real scoundrel), and these I cannot forget or forgive. I also believe in self-transcendence, and the self-hatred gives a good platform for it. There is only one thing I care about - as I believe we come here to grow in our soul so that we are accepted into "the beyond", without necessitating reincarnation in the world to work on our ego issues, I only want to reach such a state of egolessness that he who decides does not have grounds to send me back here anymore.

[star2858]

Originally Posted by aquarius7000

Could also be the famous Saturn-Sun issues.
Saturn: stability, but also fear and insecurities, passiveness and pessimism, limitation and restraint
Sun: ego, personality, self(worth), confidence and optimism

Look also at houses one (I, my, self), and five (Leo-Sun issues like self-expression..); and how the Moon (emotions, nurturing) is doing placement and aspect-wise.

aquarius7000

I can relate to all this self-hatred talk.

I have moon in aries in the 12th house (ruled by pisces) and sun in 5th house in virgo. Self-expression v. hidden emotions?

I have sun square saturn (which is in the 7th house).

I always hate myself for my failures and shortcomings in life. Often feel urge to resort to alcohol and stupid things like that and im successfuly edging away from it so far now thankfully. I think it's my tendency to over-worry, there's a lot of virgo in my chart.

These aspects might be there for someone with psychological problems, or depression maybe.

9th sept 87 - 21.30pm

[smilingsteph]

Originally Posted by Hey

We need better leaders today.

I agree, totally agree....